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Thread: The baker and the Supreme Court

  1. #71
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It is to secure these rights that governments are instituted among men.
    That included the right of people not to be discriminated against because of race religion or gender. It would seem that the US is lagging behind on that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #72
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    You forgot "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
    No. Those are historical examples of bigotry against a particular group of people. Every one of them at one point in history was a big problem. How is religiously-inspired bigotry against gay folks who want to get married any different? If your religion tells you that some class of people should be treated badly, you goddamned well need to find a new one.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    No. Those are historical examples of bigotry against a particular group of people. Every one of them at one point in history was a big problem. How is religiously-inspired bigotry against gay folks who want to get married any different? If your religion tells you that some class of people should be treated badly, you goddamned well need to find a new one.

    Oh dear, a bit anti-Islam isn't it?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Oh dear, a bit anti-Islam isn't it?
    Damn right! (Some kinds, anyway.) I have even less patience with the nastier varieties of Islam than with fundamentalist Christianity. It's a common right-wing meme that the left tends to be pro-Islam and anti-Christianity; total bullsh!t.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It is to secure these rights that governments are instituted among men.
    Your right to wave your arms about wildly ends at the point where your fist comes into contact with my nose.

    Tom
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Your right to wave your arms about wildly ends at the point where your fist comes into contact with my nose.

    Tom
    Or the baker's nose.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Damn right! (Some kinds, anyway.) I have even less patience with the nastier varieties of Islam than with fundamentalist Christianity. It's a common right-wing meme that the left tends to be pro-Islam and anti-Christianity; total bullsh!t.
    Well I'm quite catholic about the lot of 'em myself.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Or the baker's nose.
    No one came anywhere near to his nose. He is free to be a Christian.

    He is not free--the Constitution does not grant him the right--to impose his Christian beliefs and behaviors on society.

    Look at it this way:

    Suppose I take Old Testament-ness as my religion, and make it my religious practice to obey every bloodthirsty hateful command I find that God has given me. For a few examples, see these excerpts from the Dear Doctor Laura letter you can find online:

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    If you are not prepared to give me the same freedom to practice my religion that you want to give to the baker, then your entire argument is nonsense.

    Which it is.

    Tom

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Of course it's nonsense, make a great comedy film. Script is already written.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    No one came anywhere near to his nose. He is free to be a Christian.

    He is not free--the Constitution does not grant him the right--to impose his Christian beliefs and behaviors on society.
    But he's not imposing. He's refusing to be imposed upon.

    Nazism is a religion to some. Does the government have the right to compel you to make a swastika wedding cake? Suppose he says, I'll make the cake. I refuse to do the swastika. How are you infringing his right to practice nazism? You're not. Refuse and dare him to sue. He'll lose.

    The difference is that gender is a protected class, nazism isn't. Once a class is protected, discrimination is verboten. But the question now is, how far may that prohibition reach?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  11. #81
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But he's not imposing. He's refusing to be imposed upon.

    Nazism is a religion to some. Does the government have the right to compel you to make a swastika wedding cake? Suppose he says, I'll make the cake. I refuse to do the swastika. How are you infringing his right to practice nazism? You're not. Refuse and dare him to sue. He'll lose.

    The difference is that gender is a protected class, nazism isn't. Once a class is protected, discrimination is verboten. But the question now is, how far may that prohibition reach?
    First, your Nazi example completely lost me. Pronoun confusion. Who is making this cake, him or me?

    Second, I notice you completely failed to respond to the relevant part of my post. If you have a counter-argument, let's hear it.

    Look at it this way:

    Suppose I take Old Testament-ness as my religion, and make it my religious practice to obey every bloodthirsty hateful command I find that God has given me. For a few examples, see these excerpts from the Dear Doctor Laura letter you can find online:

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    If you are not prepared to give me the same freedom to practice my religion that you want to give to the baker, then your entire argument is nonsense.

    Which it is.
    Tom
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    But he's not imposing. He's refusing to be imposed upon.
    We have a word for people who "refuse to be imposed upon" by the law:

    Criminals.

    Tom
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Once a class is protected, discrimination is verboten. But the question now is, how far may that prohibition reach?
    You need to ask? Do not discriminate between customers. Treat them all the same. Not a difficult concept.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #84
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Tom, you're right, that was badly written. I should have said "Suppose you say, I'll make the cake."

    As to your point, I take it to be that an unlimited religious exemption would undo the law. I agree. I'm just speculating about whether there should be a limited exception, and what it might consist of.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You need to ask? Do not discriminate between customers. Treat them all the same. Not a difficult concept.
    Yes, we need to ask. The minimal case is only one end of the spectrum. The maximum end also needs to be determined.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  16. #86
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yes, we need to ask. The minimal case is only one end of the spectrum. The maximum end also needs to be determined.
    Discrimination is not on a spectrum.
    What is Discrimination?

    In plain English, to "discriminate" means to distinguish, single out, or make a distinction. In everyday life, when faced with more than one option, we discriminate in arriving at almost every decision we make. But in the context of civil rights law, unlawful discrimination refers to unfair or unequal treatment of an individual (or group) based on certain characteristics.
    https://civilrights.findlaw.com/civi...imination.html
    How is that a spectrum, how is the re a minimum or maximum extent associated with that description?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #87
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Tom, you're right, that was badly written. I should have said "Suppose you say, I'll make the cake."

    As to your point, I take it to be that an unlimited religious exemption would undo the law. I agree. I'm just speculating about whether there should be a limited exception, and what it might consist of.
    You are looking at it from the wrong end. The law is not interested in why the discrimination as that would open a chink in which folk could insert a crow bar to crack it wide open.
    The law is right to limit itself to the act, not the motivation. Motivation can be used to help determine the likelihood of guilt, but is not a part of any definition of a crime.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #88
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    As to your point, I take it to be that an unlimited religious exemption would undo the law. I agree. I'm just speculating about whether there should be a limited exception, and what it might consist of.
    Fair enough. But why make limited exceptions for discrimination (a criminal act) but not child marriage (another religiously motivated criminal act) or murder (an obvious criminal act)? Maybe my religion tells me to kill infidels. Can we make limited exceptions for that, as long as I only kill infidels? Or can we make limited exceptions for those (like me) who would prefer not to pay taxes when military spending conflicts with my conscience?

    I agree with Nick that the key is that the law must limit the action without consideration of the motive.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Fair enough. But why make limited exceptions for discrimination (a criminal act) but not child marriage (another religiously motivated criminal act) or murder (an obvious criminal act)? Maybe my religion tells me to kill infidels. Can we make limited exceptions for that, as long as I only kill infidels? Or can we make limited exceptions for those (like me) who would prefer not to pay taxes when military spending conflicts with my conscience?

    I agree with Nick that the key is that the law must limit the action without consideration of the motive.
    The exception I have in mind would have to do with creative, expressive acts. You seen those guys standing on the corner twirling signs, "grand opening", "open house", etc? Suppose a guy wants to hire them to twirl signs that say "I love homosexuality"?

    This type of objection is typically based on religion, but not necessarily. Like conscientious objection to military service. But then as you say, there is no "conscientious objection", religious or any other kind, to paying taxes for the military. You can refuse to kill but you can't refuse to pay somebody else to kill. Isn't there, in there somewhere, some protective boundary around the individual conscience?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  20. #90
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The exception I have in mind would have to do with creative, expressive acts.
    I'm an electrician (let's say). I don't want to wire your house because you are gay. So I claim exemption to anti-discrimination laws on the basis that wiring is a creative act that expresses my skills and vision as an electrician.

    See the problem?

    There is no act that isn't expressive or creative.

    Tom
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  21. #91
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Isn't there, in there somewhere, some protective boundary around the individual conscience?
    Only as determined by society at the time.
    You jailed conscientious objectors calling them draft dodgers during Nam.
    During WWI we made them serve as non combatant medical orderlies. During the Second War they were put into various important work in the UK
    As with everything it depends on what you can persuade your law makers to legislate.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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