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Thread: The baker and the Supreme Court

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    Question The baker and the Supreme Court

    What happens next?

    Colorado baker slammed with hostile reviews, protests after Supreme Court victory

    Jack Phillips gets standing ovation at Western Conservative Summit

    By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Saturday, June 9, 2018

    Colorado baker
    Jack Phillips received a standing ovation Saturday at the Western Conservative Summit, which came as a change of pace after a week of protests and negative reviews following his Supreme Court victory.

    Since the high court ruled Monday in his favor, the owner of the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Lakewood has been faced with protesters and a deluge of one-star reviews on Yelp, but he’s not complaining.
    Far from it. “It’s been quite a week, but God is so good,” Mr. Phillips told the friendly crowd at the Colorado Convention Center.

    He thanked those at the annual “rally on the right” hosted by the Centennial Institute who supported him during the six-year court fight over his refusal to create a wedding cake for a gay marriage ceremony.
    “I’ve heard my faith described as despicable and my efforts to defend my religious freedom have been compared to Nazis,” Mr. Phillips said. “And I’m profoundly grateful that the court saw the injustice that our state government inflicted on me. This decision is great for my family, for our shop, and for people of all faiths who should not have to fear government hostility or unjust punishment.”
    The legal battle ended Monday with the high court’s 7-2 decision that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission discriminated against Mr. Phillips on the basis of his religious beliefs when it ruled against him.
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...otesters-afte/
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    This controversy has been widely misinterpreted. The SCOTUS decision was targeted at the Colorado Civil Rights Division, because they used a religious test to decide how to handle the issue. Had they NOT done that, the decision might well have gone the other way. Precedent was not set, with this decision, and what might look like a victory for religious interests was anything but.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    If you act like a bigoted *sshole, and publicise your *ssholery on the front page of every paper in the country all the way to the Supreme Court, many people will not like you. Perhaps Mr Phillips should have thought about that.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    If you act like a bigoted *sshole, and publicise your *ssholery on the front page of every paper in the country all the way to the Supreme Court, many people will not like you. Perhaps Mr Phillips should have thought about that.
    But, but, but, he believes that he is righteously right.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    If you act like a bigoted *sshole, and publicise your *ssholery on the front page of every paper in the country all the way to the Supreme Court, many people will not like you. Perhaps Mr Phillips should have thought about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    But, but, but, he believes that he is righteously right.
    The Supreme Court agreed with Mr Phillips.

    However leaving that aside.
    What happens with other religious issues, e.g. A Catholic church declining a student on homosexuality grounds, whether the student or his homosexual 'parents', etc etc ?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    The court screwed up with Citizens United, gutting the voting rights act, misinterpreting the 2nd Amendment, and now this.

    Anyone remember what happened with the pharmacist who refused to fill birth control prescriptions?
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    The Supreme Court agreed with Mr Phillips.
    Actually, they didn't. They decided the case on very narrow procedural grounds, which pretty much only apply to this case. They did not rule that acting like bigoted *sshole is OK.

    A Catholic school is a specifically religious organization, to which the law has traditionally given unusually wide latitude. (Whether it should or not, we could argue, but it has.) A bakery is a business that serves the general public.

    Let me propose another hypothetical. Let's say our baker is an unusually strict fundamentalist Muslim, and out of sincerely-held religious convictions, refuses to sell to unveiled women. Is this OK?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Let me propose another hypothetical. Let's say our baker is an unusually strict fundamentalist Muslim, and out of sincerely-held religious convictions, refuses to sell to unveiled women. Is this OK?
    How about a baker who refuses to serve a black person... out of a 'sincere religious conviction' (Read up on 'The Curse of Ham', if you don't believe me).
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Actually, they didn't. They decided the case on very narrow procedural grounds, which pretty much only apply to this case. They did not rule that acting like bigoted *sshole is OK.

    A Catholic school is a specifically religious organization, to which the law has traditionally given unusually wide latitude. (Whether it should or not, we could argue, but it has.) A bakery is a business that serves the general public.

    Let me propose another hypothetical. Let's say our baker is an unusually strict fundamentalist Muslim, and out of sincerely-held religious convictions, refuses to sell to unveiled women. Is this OK?

    The legal battle ended Monday with the high court’s 7-2 decision that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission discriminated against Mr. Phillips on the basis of his religious beliefs when it ruled against him.
    Is 7-2 a very narrow ruling?

    While as you point out a bakery is a business that serves the general public, would this ruling not apply to any business that serves the general public?

    If the Koran states that women must be veiled similar ruling would no probably apply.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    The Supreme Court agreed with Mr Phillips.

    However leaving that aside.
    What happens with other religious issues, e.g. A Catholic church declining a student on homosexuality grounds, whether the student or his homosexual 'parents', etc etc ?
    No, they did not. They disagreed with the way the case was heard. Basically in UK law ruling that the judgement was unsound.
    But when the justices heard arguments in December, Kennedy was plainly bothered by comments by a commission member that the justice said disparaged religion. The commissioner seemed “neither tolerant nor respectful of Mr. Phillips‘ religious beliefs,” Kennedy said in December.
    That same sentiment coursed through his opinion Monday. “The commission’s hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment’s guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion,” he wrote.

    Liberal justices Stephen Breyer and Elena Kagan joined the conservative justices in the outcome. Kagan wrote separately to emphasize the limited ruling.
    Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor dissented. “There is much in the court’s opinion with which I agree,” Ginsburg wrote of Kennedy’s repeated references to protecting the rights of gay people. “I strongly disagree, however, with the court’s conclusion that Craig and Mullins should lose this case.”

    <snip>
    The American Civil Liberties Union, which represented the couple in its legal fight, said it was pleased the court did not endorse a broad religion-based exemption from anti-discrimination laws.
    “We read this decision as a reaffirmation of the court’s longstanding commitment to civil rights protections and the reality that the states have the power to protect everyone in America from discrimination, including lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people,” said James Esseks, director of the ACLU LGBT & HIV Project.
    Waggoner and Esseks disagreed about the ruling’s effect on Phillips‘ wedding cake business. Waggoner said her client can resume his refusal to make cakes for same-sex marriages without fear of a new legal fight. But Esseks said that if another same-sex couple were to ask Phillips for a wedding cake, “I see no reason in this opinion that Masterpiece Cakeshop is free to turn them away.”
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...same-sex-wedd/
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Narrow refers to applicability of the ruling not the vote.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Is 7-2 a very narrow ruling?
    Not at all... it's just not a ruling based upon what many people apparently THINK it's based on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    While as you point out a bakery is a business that serves the general public, would this ruling not apply to any business that serves the general public?
    The ruling wasn't about the business, per se... it was about the basis of the Colorado Civil Rights Commision's ruling.

    I wish people would read a few millimeters below the surface, before coming to the wrong conclusions about things.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I wish reds would read a few millimeters below the surface, before coming to the wrong conclusions about things.
    ftfy
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein

    I wish reds would read a few millimeters below the surface, before coming to the wrong conclusions about things.
    ftfy
    Rather than deal with and discuss the issue, it's always the same MO.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    I read his cakes taste like crap!
    Skip

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Rather than deal with and discuss the issue, it's always the same MO.
    In order to discuss the issue, you'd actually have to be AWARE of the issues, and have read a bit deeper than just the headlines. From your comments so far, it appears that this is not the case.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    In order to discuss the issue, you'd actually have to be AWARE of the issues, and have read a bit deeper than just the headlines. From your comments so far, it appears that this is not the case.
    Just so. It did not take long to find this:
    Washington — The Supreme Court Monday upheld gay rights and religious freedom Monday with a narrowly written decision in favor of a Christian baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.
    By a 7-2 vote, the court said Jack Phillips, the Colorado baker, was treated with hostility and bias by a state commission that concluded his actions violated a state anti-discrimination law. One commission member had commented that religion was used throughout history to justify slavery, the Holocaust and “all kinds of discrimination.”
    But the court’s opinion also stressed the importance of equal rights for gays and lesbians, and it largely rejected the claim that store owners have broad religious-liberty rights to turn away customers because of their sexual orientation.
    While some may object to same-sex marriages, said Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, “it is a general rule that such objections do not allow business owners and other actors in the economy and in society to deny protected persons equal access to goods and services under a neutral and generally applicable public accommodations law.”
    http://www.vnews.com/Justices-side-w...-cake-17965355
    There were many similar reports at the time.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Norman is correct, Kieth is wrong: the decision had nothing to do with the baker’s rights, religious, or otherwise. The state commission was determined to be the ‘hole’ in this case. We used to call similar activities, “job security”.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    It's kind of hard for one of us to be wrong when I agree with Norm on that point.

    My opinion of Mr Phillips' character and morals is my own, although shared with many other people.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    It's kind of hard for one of us to be wrong when I agree with Norm on that point.
    reds. . . <shaking head, walking away>
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Is 7-2 a very narrow ruling?
    Wow. You don't know anything about how the Supreme Court works, do you?

    "Narrow" does not mean "close."

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    reds. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Wow. You don't know anything about how the Supreme Court works, do you?

    "Narrow" does not mean "close."

    Tom
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    I think it's a big mistake as well as wrong to come down hard on the guy. He appears to be sincere. He's lynched no one. The conscience of the individual is bound to come into conflict with society. Have some respect.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I think it's a big mistake as well as wrong to come down hard on the guy. He appears to be sincere. He's lynched no one. The conscience of the individual is bound to come into conflict with society. Have some respect.
    he (rum pirate) doesn't even think he's a red, talk about delusional. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    "i can't be a red, i'm from st kitts. . ."

    that'll be the next play
    which admittedly does play better than bs's typical response when under pressure
    but not by much
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    he (rum pirate) doesn't even think he's a red, talk about delusional. . .
    ¿ I was talking about the baker. ?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    he (rum pirate) doesn't even think he's a red, talk about delusional. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    "i can't be a red, i'm from st kitts. . ."

    that'll be the next play
    which admittedly does play better than bs's typical response when under pressure
    but not by much
    I suspect your response would be 'Fart', but I shall not lower myself to that level, however do remember :
    ‘When Debate is Lost, Slander and Insults Becomes Tool of the Loser’
    Slightly paraphrased



    I realized that Osborne Russell was referring to the baker and discussing the OP topic, unlike others.

    I would agree with you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I think it's a big mistake as well as wrong to come down hard on the guy. He appears to be sincere. He's lynched no one. The conscience of the individual is bound to come into conflict with society. Have some respect.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I think it's a big mistake as well as wrong to come down hard on the guy. He appears to be sincere. He's lynched no one. The conscience of the individual is bound to come into conflict with society. Have some respect.
    Sincerely arrogant, with an inflated feeling of entitlement, leavened by a big dollop of ignorance.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I think it's a big mistake as well as wrong to come down hard on the guy. He appears to be sincere. He's lynched no one. The conscience of the individual is bound to come into conflict with society. Have some respect.
    "I never lynched anybody; I just don't want those n!ggers in my store."
    "I'm not a Nazi or anything; I just don't want to sell to Jews."
    "I'm as fond of the ladies as anyone, but this is a man's job."
    "I'm a reasonable guy, but California's a white man's land, and those Chinese have no place here."
    "I'm not a bigot, but I don't want any Catholics in my neighborhood"
    "I know they've had it hard, but I'm not going to hire any Irish."
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Hippies use back door. ->


    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    2 1/2 Yelp Stars and dwindling Poetic Justice.
    https://www.yelp.com/biz/masterpiece..._by=rating_asc

    FWIW has anyone checked the Trump International Hotel Yelp Reviews D

    https://www.yelp.com/biz/trump-inter..._by=rating_asc
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    From FB (yes it has been round before)

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    The only real reason this is an issue is because the law makes no distinction between a bakery and a country club. If the former is prejudiced, there is ample opportunity for a new baker to get business, build that business, and do well with the support of the community. In fact, I'd love to see a good bakery rise up and put this nut out of business. Country clubs and the like are big, expensive, and hard to duplicate. It's an old problem when minorities of many types were not given admission. Sad to say, the baker could be the camels nose. That's all that's really worth worrying about.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    "I'm not a bigot, but I don't want any Catholics in my neighborhood"
    "I know they've had it hard, but I'm not going to hire any Irish."
    OK, now I'm p1ssed!

    I suppose that's part of the problem. Many of the groups that were excluded are now the backbone of a great many things and have forgotten how their grandparents fought for opportunity. The native Americans remember...

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The only real reason this is an issue is because the law makes no distinction between a bakery and a country club.
    No, that's not correct; federal law DOES make clear distinctions between public businesses and private clubs.

    When dealing with private individuals, the Federal civil rights statutes only reach as far as public accommodations. Thus, while it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of race or national origin in hotels, restaurants, theaters, public transportation and public parks, the Federal civil rights laws do not make it unlawful for bona fide private clubs and religious organizations to discriminate on whatever basis they choose.
    SOURCE

    Of course, many state laws go further than the federal laws, so you may be correct about state laws.

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