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Thread: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

  1. #176
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    What is the right thing?


    . . . also, I'm in the minority, I'm a part of a small group who feels that's the staunch HC supporters held me hostage in order to beat the devil. HC, the DNC and anybody who defends the wisdom of running her in 2016 owes the rest of us an apology and needs to learn from this mistake instead of blaming those of us who had the balls to think we deserved better than her, that we deserved single payer healthcare, that we deserved justice for those that stole from us and created the recession, That we deserve regulations that would protect us from suffering the recession again, that we deserve equal protection under the law for all people regardless of their sexuality and that this should not be simply a weather-vain issue which you can trade for votes . . . Her defenders owe me and people like me an apology for forcing me to settle and sill lose, she lost . . . they are all nearly as vile as Trump and his supporters. Traitors.
    make those of us who would be your ally into your enemy

  2. #177
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    make those of us who would be your ally into your enemy
    I get it. My point, "they" are the ones in power, the majority of Democrats, the only party outside of the Republicans to vote for if you want anything resembling alignment with your values and beliefs, "they" are not in this for the average person, "they" are all nearly as vile as Trump and his supporters. Traitors. I'm a commodity in this political game and I represent a, not so small, small group of people who expect more. A group that seems to be needed in November, one that the DNC has demonized for my support of someone other than their ordained. They must win my vote with one exception, the goal to remove Trump, for this they have my support, begrudgingly. . . .
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  3. #178
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I get it. My point, "they" are the ones in power, the majority of Democrats, the only party outside of the Republicans to vote for if you want anything resembling alignment with your values and beliefs, "they" are not in this for the average person, "they" are all nearly as vile as Trump and his supporters. Traitors. I'm a commodity in this political game and I represent a, not so small, small group of people who expect more. A group that seems to be needed in November, one that the DNC has demonized for my support of someone other than their ordained. They must win my vote with one exception, the goal to remove Trump, for this they have my support, begrudgingly. . . .
    Well, calling your would-be allies 'vile' and 'traitors' is a great way to turn them into enemies, but I can't see how it serves your interest, rather than those of Trump and the Trumpettes. Maybe Bernie has learned enough about appealing to the parts of the Democratic coalition that are not white and male, and maybe he's willing to be a Democrat if he wants to run as one. But if he engages in the sort of name-calling and bitterness you are stuck in, he will never be president.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Here's the thing. This argument is not about finding a solution, it's about finding a scapegoat so you can guilt the rest of us into blindly voting for whatever piece of sh17 is put in front of us. You want me to be a good Democrat. I say eff off. Earn it. Appeal to me like the RNC appeals to their base. Win me over, convince me. But don't f3cking lie to me and don't try to manipulate me into doing your bidding. That's how the DNC wins, they actually set themselves apart from the RNC instead of just throwing some rainbow jimmies and chocolate sauce on a giant pile of sh17.
    Well, I don't know what's wrong with your eyesight, but I could see Trump.

    Bernie ran as a Democrat.

    Upon his defeat in the primary, he owed immediate, fully-committed and unconditional support for HRC, whether his petty, idealistic, little, ego-shrouded 'integrity' liked it or not.

    That's how you win elections.

    By showing tardy, squishy and reserved support, Sanders hurt Hillary's chances of winning, and thus helped Trump's chances of winning.

    Note that this is a softening of my position as regards Bernie since the start of this thread.


    I too think the Democratic Party needs to move on from the Civil Rights era, and the coping-with-Reagan era, and come to the uncertain conclusion that the 'Republican' Party have been saying for 40 years they want to drown our Duly-Constituted Government in a bathtub.

    They weren't kidding.

    They've been drawing the water and bolting all the doors to the bathroom, and now their heavy has seized 2 branches of that Government, and is hard at work destroying the credibility, operability and governability of this Nation.

    If you want a better party than the Democratic Party, and you want it big and powerful enough to kick that POSPOTUS to the curb, then it seems like you're about 35-40 million members away from being an effective force to be reckoned with.

    There are approximately 30,700,138 registered Republicans in the U.S, and approximately 43,140,758 registered Democrats.
    That's not to say it can't be done, it's to say you'd better get crackin'.

    It would be good if you could get it done a week ago, because I'm pretty sure most of the States' 2018 primaries are over, and the ballots set.

    I may be wrong about that.

    The point is, that if she had been elected, then people could work to change the Democratic Party in a calm, orderly, time-honored political tradition.


    Meanwhile, the water is getting deeper FAST.
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #180
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    I've been sitting back watching the Bernie haters go wild & finally have to say something more. I'm not sure why people hate him. I can understand disagreeing with him, but he's actually a pretty personable guy who has serious strength of his convictions.

    Anyway, at first it was that "Bernie voters were all traitors & didn't vote for Clinton". When you figured out (were shown) that he was indeed pulling a lot of non-Dem voters, you switched over to whining about how he never supported Clinton properly. The New Yorker disagrees with you (from Nov. 2016): https://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-d...illary-clinton

    The truth is that Bernie Sanders is very, very angry—at Donald Trump. He is angry enough to have spent weeks traveling on behalf of Hillary Clinton, speaking for her in union halls and arenas, to students and activists.
    There are many other reports out there that echo this; fact is, Bernie did quite a bit of campaigning for HRC.

    Was Bernie a factor in the election? Of course. Did he alone lose it for Clinton? NFW. Clinton's campaign had plenty of issues completely unconnected to Bernie:

    At 10 year smear campaign by Bannon & other Reps
    Baggage from her husband (both old & new - the airport meeting for example)
    A DNC run by what I consider to be a Rep. plant (DWS) who screwed up pretty much everything she touched
    DNC email hacks (whoever prompted them)
    Comey's little surprise announcement
    HRC completely ignored rural voters - especially those in the "flyover" states
    Voter turnout was pitiful (I know she'll win, so why bother to vote)
    The first female candidate (sad that this was an issue - but we know it was)
    Probably more I can't think of right now.

    And yes - there was some lingering anger over how Bernie was treated

    In summary, how about all the Dems here stop making Geng's & the other RW folks day & agree that there were many reasons why HRC lost the electoral college? Maybe even agree that Bernie does not have horns sticking out of his head, and even better - look forward to what we can do to end the Trump Disgustancy & get his spineless collaborators out of the house & senate?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #181
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I get it. My point, "they" are the ones in power, the majority of Democrats, the only party outside of the Republicans to vote for if you want anything resembling alignment with your values and beliefs, "they" are not in this for the average person, "they" are all nearly as vile as Trump and his supporters. Traitors. I'm a commodity in this political game and I represent a, not so small, small group of people who expect more. A group that seems to be needed in November, one that the DNC has demonized for my support of someone other than their ordained. They must win my vote with one exception, the goal to remove Trump, for this they have my support, begrudgingly. . . .
    Hear, hear. Maybe "traitor" is a bit much. Maybe not.

    Democratic Senator Bernie Sanders, during his unsuccessful presidential campaign, criticized Clinton for a conflict of interest: "Do I have a problem when a sitting secretary of State and a foundation run by her husband collects many, many dollars from foreign governments — governments which are dictatorships? Yeah, I do have a problem with that. Yeah, I do". Republican Senator John Cornyn, who voted for Clinton's confirmation in 2009, says that she duped Congress, that he now regrets his vote, and that President Obama should appoint a special prosecutor to investigate whether donors to the foundation gained improper access at the State Department.

    An August 30, 2016 editorial by The New York Times opined there was no proof that donors to the foundation received special favors from Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State. However, the Times added that there was reason to question where the Clinton Foundation ended and where the State Department began.

    -- wikipedia
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  7. #182
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I've been sitting back watching the Bernie haters go wild & finally have to say something more. I'm not sure why people hate him. I can understand disagreeing with him, but he's actually a pretty personable guy who has serious strength of his convictions.

    Anyway, at first it was that "Bernie voters were all traitors & didn't vote for Clinton". When you figured out (were shown) that he was indeed pulling a lot of non-Dem voters, you switched over to whining about how he never supported Clinton properly. The New Yorker disagrees with you (from Nov. 2016): https://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-d...illary-clinton



    There are many other reports out there that echo this; fact is, Bernie did quite a bit of campaigning for HRC.

    Was Bernie a factor in the election? Of course. Did he alone lose it for Clinton? NFW. Clinton's campaign had plenty of issues completely unconnected to Bernie:

    At 10 year smear campaign by Bannon & other Reps
    Baggage from her husband (both old & new - the airport meeting for example)
    A DNC run by what I consider to be a Rep. plant (DWS) who screwed up pretty much everything she touched
    DNC email hacks (whoever prompted them)
    Comey's little surprise announcement
    HRC completely ignored rural voters - especially those in the "flyover" states
    Voter turnout was pitiful (I know she'll win, so why bother to vote)
    The first female candidate (sad that this was an issue - but we know it was)
    Probably more I can't think of right now.

    And yes - there was some lingering anger over how Bernie was treated

    In summary, how about all the Dems here stop making Geng's & the other RW folks day & agree that there were many reasons why HRC lost the electoral college? Maybe even agree that Bernie does not have horns sticking out of his head, and even better - look forward to what we can do to end the Trump Disgustancy & get his spineless collaborators out of the house & senate?
    Just to be clear, I would have been happy to see Bernie as president. Nor do I think his conduct after losing the nomination was responsible for her loss. However, I don't agree that the DNC is obligated to provide a platform for non-Democrats to run for president, and I do think some of Bernie's supporters are buying into the Republican narrative that his supporters should be mad at the Democratic Party and should not support their candidate unless it's Bernie.

    How people conducted themselves in the last campaign, whether Bernie or Debbie or anyone else, is spilt milk. How people work to take this country back from the wackadoodles is the current issue. DWS is gone, Bernie can join the party if he wants to be the party's nominee, all that can be dealt with, provided we don't allow bitterness from the last campaign dominate the next one.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Just to be clear, I would have been happy to see Bernie as president. Nor do I think his conduct after losing the nomination was responsible for her loss. However, I don't agree that the DNC is obligated to provide a platform for non-Democrats to run for president, and I do think some of Bernie's supporters are buying into the Republican narrative that his supporters should be mad at the Democratic Party and should not support their candidate unless it's Bernie.

    How people conducted themselves in the last campaign, whether Bernie or Debbie or anyone else, is spilt milk. How people work to take this country back from the wackadoodles is the current issue. DWS is gone, Bernie can join the party if he wants to be the party's nominee, all that can be dealt with, provided we don't allow bitterness from the last campaign dominate the next one.
    I agree on the DNC's non-responsibility, as well as the reactions of some of his supporters. It is indeed spilt milk & my focus is on what we can do going forward - hence my "in summary" closing.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  9. #184
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I agree on the DNC's non-responsibility, as well as the reactions of some of his supporters. It is indeed spilt milk & my focus is on what we can do going forward - hence my "in summary" closing.
    Your in summary closing looked like a straw man to me. I don't think anyone has made the argument that Bernie was the only reason Hillary lost. And while your response has been measured, McMike's response shows that there is still a lot of bitterness against the Democratic Party on the part of some of Bernie's supporters, and Oz's response shows there is still a lot of bitterness against Bernie.

    The thing is, I don't think the party is sticking it to Bernie. Their freedom of association includes asking that anyone who represents the party be a member. Bernie's includes joining or not joining. If he doesn't want to run as a Democrat, the timing of this change gives him plenty of time to either join the party or find some alternate way of running. And I would be delighted if he chose to run as a Democrat and won the nomination, I think he's a good candidate.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Your in summary closing looked like a straw man to me. I don't think anyone has made the argument that Bernie was the only reason Hillary lost. And while your response has been measured, McMike's response shows that there is still a lot of bitterness against the Democratic Party on the part of some of Bernie's supporters, and Oz's response shows there is still a lot of bitterness against Bernie.

    The thing is, I don't think the party is sticking it to Bernie. Their freedom of association includes asking that anyone who represents the party be a member. Bernie's includes joining or not joining. If he doesn't want to run as a Democrat, the timing of this change gives him plenty of time to either join the party or find some alternate way of running. And I would be delighted if he chose to run as a Democrat and won the nomination, I think he's a good candidate.
    Not really.
    Rattling the teacups.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Not really.
    Good.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Not really.
    I love ya man but . . . bu77sh17.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  13. #188
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I love ya man but . . . bu77sh17.
    Not bitter.

    A little peeved, maybe.
    Rattling the teacups.

  14. #189
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Your in summary closing looked like a straw man to me. I don't think anyone has made the argument that Bernie was the only reason Hillary lost. And while your response has been measured, McMike's response shows that there is still a lot of bitterness against the Democratic Party on the part of some of Bernie's supporters, and Oz's response shows there is still a lot of bitterness against Bernie.

    The thing is, I don't think the party is sticking it to Bernie. Their freedom of association includes asking that anyone who represents the party be a member. Bernie's includes joining or not joining. If he doesn't want to run as a Democrat, the timing of this change gives him plenty of time to either join the party or find some alternate way of running. And I would be delighted if he chose to run as a Democrat and won the nomination, I think he's a good candidate.
    Where's the straw man? I know I haven't been to see the wizard - but I don't see one. The Bernie & horns comment? That was my way of saying he'd been demonized here. Maybe folks didn't say he was the only reason, but it's sure been implied that he was a (if not the) major one.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Where's the straw man? I know I haven't been to see the wizard - but I don't see one. The Bernie & horns comment? That was my way of saying he'd been demonized here. Maybe folks didn't say he was the only reason, but it's sure been implied that he was a (if not the) major one.
    Here's the straw man:

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    In summary, how about all the Dems here stop making Geng's & the other RW folks day & agree that there were many reasons why HRC lost the electoral college? Maybe even agree that Bernie does not have horns sticking out of his head, and even better - look forward to what we can do to end the Trump Disgustancy & get his spineless collaborators out of the house & senate?
    All the Democrats I've ever talked to already agree that there were many reasons HRC lost the election. It's one of the areas of agreement between Clinton and Sanders supporters. Claiming that's what needs to happen is a straw man.

    the areas of disagreement are:

    A) Could Bernie have done better at defeating Trump?

    and

    1) Is the Democratic Party screwing over Sanders be insisting that its standard-bearer say that he or she is a Democrat?

    Neither of these things is related to the other causes of Hillary's loss, such as not spending enough time in the upper Midwest, or Russian actions, or Comey's actions.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Here's the straw man:



    All the Democrats I've ever talked to already agree that there were many reasons HRC lost the election. It's one of the areas of agreement between Clinton and Sanders supporters. Claiming that's what needs to happen is a straw man.

    the areas of disagreement are:

    A) Could Bernie have done better at defeating Trump?

    and

    1) Is the Democratic Party screwing over Sanders be insisting that its standard-bearer say that he or she is a Democrat?

    Neither of these things is related to the other causes of Hillary's loss, such as not spending enough time in the upper Midwest, or Russian actions, or Comey's actions.
    I was speaking to posters here, who first claimed that it was all about Bernie voters not voting for Clinton, and then later saying she lost because Bernie didn't campaign for her hard enough.

    Out in the real world, I agree that her loss was due to a # of factors.

    Though I supported him (& later voted for HRC), I don't know that he could've beaten Trump. I don't believe we ever will.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I was speaking to posters here, who first claimed that it was all about Bernie voters not voting for Clinton, and then later saying she lost because Bernie didn't campaign for her hard enough.

    Out in the real world, I agree that her loss was due to a # of factors.

    Though I supported him (& later voted for HRC), I don't know that he could've beaten Trump. I don't believe we ever will.
    1) 12% of Bernie primary voters voted for Trump in the General.

    2) You say he campaigned hard for her, but that's not the way I remember it. Have it your own way.

    3) I love idealists, and have that tendency myself, but pretending that there is going to be some sort of third-party miracle in the absence of any relevant third party is just counter-productive.

    Integrity, principles and idealism never won any election.

    Elections are won by hard-nosed, brutal pragmatism and coalition-building.

    This is not to say that the DNC doesn't have problems, it is to say that it's the best shot we have for driving the Career Criminal In Chief out of office, and into a prison cell where he belongs.

    The 'Republican' Party isn't gonna do it.

    They have been planning to murder our government by 'drowning it in a bathtub' for forty years, and their hit man is in the White House.
    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #193
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    I'm done. We agree on too many far, far more important things to keep bickering back & forth about this.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I'm done. We agree on too many far, far more important things to keep bickering back & forth about this.
    I got no hard feelings toward you, Garret.

    I respect your position (see how I was willing to let go of the Bernie didn't campaign for HRC thing?).

    I respect your level of information, and I respect your style!
    Rattling the teacups.

  20. #195
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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I was speaking to posters here, who first claimed that it was all about Bernie voters not voting for Clinton, and then later saying she lost because Bernie didn't campaign for her hard enough.

    Out in the real world, I agree that her loss was due to a # of factors.

    Though I supported him (& later voted for HRC), I don't know that he could've beaten Trump. I don't believe we ever will.
    I don't recall even Oz saying Hillary only lost because of Bernie, but then, he has let go of some of his earlier animus. But if both Bernie and Trump run in 2020, we might find out if Bernie can beat Trump.

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I don't recall even Oz saying Hillary only lost because of Bernie, but then, he has let go of some of his earlier animus. But if both Bernie and Trump run in 2020, we might find out if Bernie can beat Trump.
    It may have been easy to get that impression, but that's not my view.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    It may have been easy to get that impression, but that's not my view.
    You were very emphatic, but you certainly never said Hillary only lost because of Bernie.

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    “Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards. It takes both passion and perspective. Certainly all historical experience confirms the truth - that man would not have attained the possible unless time and again he had reached out for the impossible. But to do that a man must be a leader, and not only a leader but a hero as well, in a very sober sense of the word. And even those who are neither leaders nor heroes must arm themselves with that steadfastness of heart which can brave even the crumbling of all hopes. This is necessary right now, or else men will not be able to attain even that which is possible today.” -- Max Weber

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    Default Re: The DNC is sticking it to Sanders again

    There are challenges. Always. No matter what period of history you choose to examine. Our current challenges strike me as particularly pivotal.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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