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Thread: standing lug details

  1. #36
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    The more accurate question would simply be "where is the best attachment point on the yard for the halyard?" as that's what is actually doing the work and determining the amount of overlap, as well as the fore and aft balance of the yard. I'm not aware of any specific recommendations for it and it doesn't seem to appear in any of my reference books. I usually attach the halyard maybe 35% to 40% aft of the yard's heel for design purposes and adjust as needed after some sailing.

    Edit: You have to remember that you will be sailing with a lugsail. It is held to the boat with a minimum of attachments and in some ways it is more like flying a kite from a pole than anything the average Marconi rig sailor is used to. You will find both a lot of room for potential adjustments and tweaks, as well as a lot fewer aspects which can be addressed with some sort of absolute or formula.
    Last edited by Todd Bradshaw; 06-09-2018 at 01:36 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    The more accurate question would simply be "where is the best attachment point on the yard for the halyard?" as that's what is actually doing the work and determining the amount of overlap, as well as the fore and aft balance of the yard. I'm not aware of any specific recommendations for it and it doesn't seem to appear in any of my reference books. I usually attach the halyard maybe 35% to 40% aft of the yard's heel for design purposes and adjust as needed after some sailing.

    Edit: You have to remember that you will be sailing with a lugsail. It is held to the boat with a minimum of attachments and in some ways it is more like flying a kite from a pole than anything the average Marconi rig sailor is used to. You will find both a lot of room for potential adjustments and tweaks, as well as a lot fewer aspects which can be addressed with some sort of absolute or formula.
    I would go for 1/3 of the length of the head of the sail.




    But if you want eye popping luff tension and a peak halyard you can go for a bisquine rig.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Hard to say what the sweet spot would be. I saw 'Sinagots' last year in France with yards about horizontal and when heeled they were drooping downwards. They also looked very thick, and were hoisted almost halfway. About the luff, I use Dyneema sewn in a tunnel which makes sewing them to patches easy.
    Can you show a picture of the boat and a ssilplan?

  4. #39
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Hard to say what the sweet spot would be. I saw 'Sinagots' last year in France with yards about horizontal and when heeled they were drooping downwards. They also looked very thick, and were hoisted almost halfway. About the luff, I use Dyneema sewn in a tunnel which makes sewing them to patches easy.
    Can you show a picture of the boat and a ssilplan?

    Like the Bisquines, slung forward with massive luff tension.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    Thanks Todd!
    i gotcha!

    i just googled "self vanging sails" and this is what popped up.
    but i get the picture now-
    i am not planning on a sprit rig, .
    i will accept that i will need to just put a boomvang on each sail- and use it as needed, as i currently do.

    Ben, have you got any pictures of your sail and set up- i would love to see the high aspect sail parameters.
    many thanks
    Find Antonio Dias, Tony Dias's website where there are lots of photos of RanTan.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Hard to say what the sweet spot would be. I saw 'Sinagots' last year in France with yards about horizontal and when heeled they were drooping downwards. They also looked very thick, and were hoisted almost halfway. About the luff, I use Dyneema sewn in a tunnel which makes sewing them to patches easy.
    Can you show a picture of the boat and a ssilplan?
    On RanTan, I have low stretch line and a 4-1 purchase on the tack downhaul. My first 2" carbon mast used to be bent with the tension which is a very bad thing with lugs. My new mast is wicked stiff so I can use luff tension to shape the sale much the way a Cunningham shapes the sail on a conventional rig. For Romilly which has winches I anticpate taking a wrap on the downhaul to tension the luff.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  7. #42
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Nick, those are beautiful pics of that boat, any more info on her?

  8. #43
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    On RanTan, I have low stretch line and a 4-1 purchase on the tack downhaul. My first 2" carbon mast used to be bent with the tension which is a very bad thing with lugs. ....
    --- Same experience, with a less powerful downhaul, even. --wade

  9. #44
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Ben, i managed to open the Tony Dias page- and read up on Ran Tan.
    what a beautiful little boat, do you have any more about her?
    i see now what you were saying about self-vanging.
    i really like the high aspect Lug sail, who did the sail for you?

    what was the reason to go boomless, yes i know, i have read all the pro's and cons, but what was your personal reasoning?

  10. #45
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    looking at his websight...what an incredible designer. i love his perspective and insight. absolutely beautiful boats all round!

  11. #46
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    Ben, i managed to open the Tony Dias page- and read up on Ran Tan.
    what a beautiful little boat, do you have any more about her?
    i see now what you were saying about self-vanging.
    i really like the high aspect Lug sail, who did the sail for you?

    what was the reason to go boomless, yes i know, i have read all the pro's and cons, but what was your personal reasoning?
    e

    If I had a boom, I'd need to have a vang which is hard to engineer; the pivot point of a vang has to be directly under a gooseneck otherwise it will bind, so it dictates the mast step structure. The only way around it is struts from above or very powerful and expensive lever systems as found on Finns.

    The sail was a Dabbler, but the key is finding someone with experience in full length batten pockets and also who will want to know the deflection of the yard under load. You will note that the yard isn't lashed, rather it is sleeved, simpler and cleaner. ( as is my mizzen)
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  12. #47
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    looking at his websight...what an incredible designer. i love his perspective and insight. absolutely beautiful boats all round!
    tresure trove
    https://antoniodiasdesign.wordpress....folio/harrier/

  13. #48
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    hi Ben, many thanks, my thoughts were to attach the boomvang to the mast just above the partner- as the mast setups i will be using will allow the mast to rotate.

    the freestanding carbon masts will fit into a slightly oversize socket/tube running from deck to keel, i will probably use an UHMW bearing block on the bottom, and a UHMW bearing collar right at the partner.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    hi Ben, many thanks, my thoughts were to attach the boomvang to the mast just above the partner- as the mast setups i will be using will allow the mast to rotate.

    the freestanding carbon masts will fit into a slightly oversize socket/tube running from deck to keel, i will probably use an UHMW bearing block on the bottom, and a UHMW bearing collar right at the partner.
    The issue is how much distance is between the partner and the gooseneck. If there isn't very much the geometry of the vang isn't very good. I'm not sure how much a lug mast will rotate since the sail isn't attached. A boom may push it around.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  15. #50
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    thats why i was considering a gooseneck attachment, instead of a set of boom jaws.
    With the Vang attached to the mast ( as opposed to the "boat") right at the partner, and the other at the best point along the boom.
    if nothing else- the gooseneck and the vang should help pivot the mast. keping everything in line and working.....in theory

  16. #51
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    I'm starting to wonder with all these mods and theories, why you are choosing a lugsail in the first place? An awful lot of your proposed changes seem to me to have no base in experience and would seem to work against much of what lugsails do well and pretty simply in the first place. Kind of a "Let's take a lugsail and load it down with a bunch of Marconi rigging and make it "better" ?????

  17. #52
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    sorry if i gave that impression Todd, but its not what i am trying to do.
    all i am trying to do is learn as much as possible from folk more experienced with lugsails than myself, i guess if i knew all i needed to know about lug sails, i would never have posted the questions in the first place.
    , but you are absolutely correct, i have no experience with lug sails. but working on trying to change that.
    the boat is currently sloop rigged with a stayed mast, and all the associated rigging- i want to change it to a split rig. the choice for Lug sails, was based on the fact that it seemed to be the best way to get maximum sail area from the shortest masts.

    the boat is a trailer sailer, and i need the masts to be no longer than a specific length ( 19'), the current mast extends way past the transom of the boat.
    i will build carbon masts and spars, the masts will be free standing, so sans all the sloop rigging thats currently there.
    the only a piece of equipment that i am in limbo over, and if i could do away with it i would, is the boom vang, and from the info i have gleaned on here, and all the other reading i have done, seems to indicate that i will be needing a boomvang for the standing lug's when running.

    if i dont need a boom vang- thats great, then all i will have is a halliard, a downhaul and the sheets. simple i agree!!
    if however a boomvang is a huge advantage, then i will simply change the boom to a gooseneck attachment instead of Jaws- that will allow for an easy boomvang setup, this will also obviate the downhaul.
    these masts will rotate- just by nature of their installation, whether i use that feature or not to my advantage is going to depend on the boomvang.

    Please Todd, i really want to make this as simple as possible, thats one of the reasons for deciding on the lugsails, i had another option to use sliding gunters, but thought that was more complicated than i needed, so any and all advice from folk like yourself is greatly appreciated.

    thanks all for the comments and input thus far- i have learnt a lot as this thread has progressed- many thanks.
    Last edited by wayne nicol; 06-11-2018 at 11:05 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Off the wind a boom vang on a standing lug is a very good thing. A balanced lug may have some advantages.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Thanks Canoe, your insight is appreciated

    in the light of boom vangs and the desire to keep on learning, if the masts are going to rotate,and the geometry on the vang is not going to change as the sail moves further outboard, can the boom vang simply made to not be adjustable- (but maybe with a quick release built in, that will release under load), so that it would work more like the self vanging standing lug sail?- would that not simplify things further without any detriment.
    This is Ben Fullers boat from Antonio Dias's website.

    although this rig is boomless, it does have an extra stiff batten according to Ben.

    Last edited by wayne nicol; 06-11-2018 at 11:29 PM.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Just for the sake of future accuracy, I really doubt that you were actually referring to sliding gunters. If you mean gunter sails where when furled, the topmast section is folded down horizontal and on top of the boom, then you are talking about just a "gunter sail". If you want to further define it, you can call it a "folding gunter". The topmast will also usually have a few degrees of aft rake, compared to the lower mast .

    A true sliding gunter's topmast section remains vertical at all times, usually attached to the mast with a couple of fixed hoops which keep it that way. In the course of raising or lowering the sail, the top spar section slides straight up and down the back side of the lower mast, essentially telescoping. There is no rake to speak of in the upper spar. It's not a very practical sail in use, or popular compared to the folding variety. Probably 75% of sailors confuse the terminology, mostly because the true slider is extremely rare these days and most have never, and will never, even see one.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    yup, the original design for the change of rig, incorporating the shorter masts, was for sliding gunters.
    but my feelings were that i did not want to deal with sail track again, and also some kind of sliding apparatus, even if it was just track cars in the sail track.
    and i felt that the weight up top would be greater with respect to the sliding gunter rig vs the luggers yard.
    The folding gunter would need a taller mast would it not, to allow for its halyard to work.? something akin to a gaff sail?
    that was the main reason we crossed Gaffs off the list, due to the extra mast being needed.


    i just felt that i would be back at the marconi type deal, trying to pull sails down by hand. i even have slugs in my current sail set up- and they are supposed to slide freely, but they simply dont.
    i know the Harken cars are pretty nice, but also pricey

  22. #57
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    ]in the light of boom vangs and the desire to keep on learning, if the masts are going to rotate,and the geometry on the vang is not going to change as the sail moves further outboard, can the boom vang simply made to not be adjustable- (but maybe with a quick release built in, that will release under load), so that it would work more like the self vanging standing lug sail?
    First of all, we have no idea how effectively the masts will rotate, or not (this ain't no Hobie Cat). The idea of releasing a fixed vang under a load on a sail that huge sounds like a really great way to break something or get hurt. It would probably be a much better idea to head up long enough to release it under control. Personally, I think you are way to concerned about the whole vang thing and way underestimating the value of sail twist, but if you are going to do it, it would be nuts to not make it adjustable. The vang is supposed to be a sail shaping tool and it doesn't make sense to install shaping tools that don't work.


    although this rig is boomless, it does have an extra stiff batten according to Ben.
    It is basically a sprit-boom sail, just like the mizzen, only the mainsail's "sprit-boom" is in the form of a heavy duty batten stuck in a pocket. The triangles of tension formed between the luff edges, the sails' foot edges and the downward angled boom (or batten) are what do the self-vanging on both sails.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    hi Ben, many thanks, my thoughts were to attach the boomvang to the mast just above the partner- as the mast setups i will be using will allow the mast to rotate.

    the freestanding carbon masts will fit into a slightly oversize socket/tube running from deck to keel, i will probably use an UHMW bearing block on the bottom, and a UHMW bearing collar right at the partner.
    My balanced lug is set up like this, Delrin bearings rather than PE, happened to have some. It is only 40sq ft on a canoe and working well, I like that I can completely feather / depower. My one worry was the rig falling out if I capsized. I first used a clamp made from two large jubilee clips joined together. It was clamped around the mast under the mast partner but it was all a bit fiddly. I now have a six inch tube a slightly larger diameter to the mast attached to the keel / sole and above the partner a loose line attached to it to about eight inches up the mast. The line becomes tight when the mast is fully rotated but at its loosest the mast can’t come out. Obviously the mainsheet prevents rotation over 360 degrees so it works fine.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    I am in the process of rigging my Argie 15 with Standing Lug designed by Todd (btw, THANKS Todd). I am rigging it with a light boom, and first time on water will be the coming weekend. Beenig a Norwegian I dont really understand the term Self-Vanging??

    I think I know what a boom-vang is and on-board a Bermuda rigged boat we sometimes adjust it in regatta sailing.

    How much affect will a boom-vang have on this small simple boat? I do want to keep it simple :-)

    Fred

  25. #60
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    point taken Todd, i was really just trying to simplify things, i guess i will simply return to the idea of using a multi-purchase, adjustable boom vang, use it if i want, and dont use it if i want.
    if i find i am never using it, i can easily remove it, and be done with it.
    i guess the advantage of the sail twist, is simply something i am going to have to learn about as I sail with the new rig.

    the system of mast rotation actually works very well, i have seen quite a few boats done like this, and on similarly sized sails. the one designer who uses this system says all they do about once a week is that they apply a very small dab of dishwashing soap, and the rotation never fails. the soap was not needed- but it sure slicked things up very well, and maybe prevented wear on the mast/partners over years of use.

    Tink, thats a great, yet simple system for retaining the mast, thanks.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    How does this sail reef?
    My experience with the standing lug is that as you reef, either the tack moves forward or the yard peaks up requiring a shift of the halyard. It appears with this image that if you reef the self-vanging benefit is lost, and again my experience is
    then is when you really want that vang...


  27. #62
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    i dont know that, i am sure Ben will comment here.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Fred, The function of the vang is to pull the boom down to keep it at a fairly level attitude when sailing off the wind. Typical mainsheet function applies tension to both hold the boom down level-ish, and pull it inward toward the keel line or ease it out over the side as you trim and ease the sail. As you ease most sails outward (as you would as your course becomes somewhat more downwind) you lose a fair bit of the mainsheet's downward tension on the boom and the boom's aft end starts to lift. This in turn will ease tension on the leech and that will allow the upper part of the sail to twist away to leeward, spilling wind and depowering the sail. At this point, part of your sail is not providing power, which can be bad and undesirable at times. At other times when it's blowing pretty hard and the boat is getting overpowered, letting the top twist away can substantially reduce heeling force and bring back your control.

    The vang has the power to do what the sheet can't do when the sail is outboard, basically just because it's in a position which gives it a lot more leverage than the mainsheet can provide in those boom-outboard situations. It can pull the boom back down toward level and reduce or nearly eliminate upper sail twist and the subsequent power loss when desired. A traditional standing lug is one of those sail types where easing the sheet pretty much always increases twist, which will continue to iincrease the more you let the sail out. So having a vang to be able to reduce the twist when desired can be a good thing. Those sail types which are self-vanging (sprit-boom rigged sails, some club-footed or boomed jibs, balanced lugsails) control and eliminate most twist, just because of the way they are rigged. No adjustment or other means is needed to keep the whole sail pretty much un-twisted (or at least a lot less twisted) and generating power all the way up to their tops. Their potential drawback is that even if you want to allow them to twist to leeward up high and spill wind to depower because it's blowing like stink, their configuration won't allow very much twist. You can always reef them, but there can certainly be an advantage in puffy air to be able to almost instantly depower or power back up just by using sheet tension to quickly add or remove sail twist on a non-self-vanging sail. It's one of those "no perfect answer" things, and the system that works best will depend on the boat, the sailor's ability and the typical conditions the boat is sailed in.

    It is also worth knowing that the wind at the top of your mast is slightly twisted already. This is due to it being farther away from, and less affected by, the water's surface. If your sail (any sail) is completely untwisted as you sail along, the top part is over-trimmed and stalling out. In fact, the fancy computer programs which design and plot modern Marconi sails actually usually build-in somewhere around six or seven degrees of upper sail twist to the design.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    i dont know that, i am sure Ben will comment here.
    The sail reefs onto the long batten; there are grommets thru which the points lead. Having that pretty straight leech helps keep things from moving around.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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