Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 64

Thread: standing lug details

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default standing lug details

    i am working towards a new lug rig for a boat.
    i read as much as i can, and have had Todd answer a few questions as well.
    i have a few questions pertaining to standing lugs.

    1.with the downhaul properly tensioned, does the tension not increase as the boom is moved outboard, and the downhaul line spirals around the mast, same for the halliard- maybe thats a good thing? i would imagine that would increase luff tension, and possibly help reduce the head twisting, say when running
    if thats not good, would the mast being able to rotate be a good thing? with the halliard cleated to a cleat on the mast, and the downhaul attached to the mast base.

    2.boomvang. i would imagine the same kind of boomvang setup as on most marconis?
    a multi-block setup with a jamming cleat and the line run to the cockpit?

    is there a magic percentage along the boom that this should be attached- or does one go to the partner and take a 45-degree angle towards the boom?

    3.as too good sail kits. i have experience with sewing machines and fabrication, and follow instructions well, is there a particular sail loft that will provide a well-designed kit, if i gave them the dimensions and required angles.

    many thanks all!
    Last edited by wayne nicol; 06-09-2018 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,009

    Default Re: standing lug details

    1. Wont make any/much difference. The tack down haul will not move much at all, and the elasticity of the halyard down the mast will accommodate the small change in length between the yard and sheave.
    2. Traditionally many standing lugs were boomless, so a boom vang is a bit of overkill. But hey it is your boat and if you love lots of string to pull . . .
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    888

    Default Re: standing lug details

    With a standing lug, since your boom is attached to your mast, you can use that to advantage with more available sail control. I'd make use of an 8:1 boom vang and 6:1 clew outhaul to adjust the leach and sail draft respectively. 3mm dyneema outhaul/ 4mm dyneema vang. Harken 16mm blocks outhaul. Harken 40mm boom vang block, 29mm rest. Rig vang as a cascade (2 more 29 simple blocks), led back to a cleat under the back your main thwart to side of the centercase with an extreme angle fairlead so you can adjust it on the fly from both sides. Run 5mm Marlow Control line for the final handled/ cleated section in your choice of colour. Lead clew outhaul back on other side of centerboard case. Splice the dyneema to avoid dropping strength. For final connection - just bowline together, as the strength drop is still well under loading. You can see how much you've got on by the connection position along your centercase. When the control lines wear, you only have to replace 2 meters in each case. Rooster do nice clew straps. Harken do a nice clew 16mm block and hook. Make sure you boom is long enough. If you want deluxe...rig 6mm elastic chord from the clew forward wrapping under to mid boom, so you have elastic recoil on your outhaul when you release it a bit for downwind. Now your cooking.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-06-2018 at 05:02 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    thanks guys.
    Nick, i hear you my friend, and i agree, in fact pulling strings in one of the main reasons that i am considering the lug rig vs the sliding gunter. its not that i want a boomvang, i love the simplicity of the lugs, just from what i have read, with larger standing lugs a boomvang has some distinct advantages, as they lack the "self vanging" ability of the balanced lugs.
    thanks Edward, lots of very practical advice there. will be saving that info.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    this rig will be a standing lug cat schooner. well maybe not a true cat- as the current anchor locker prevents the foremast being right at the bow.
    these will be freestanding masts, and no headsail.
    main-340sq ft
    and the fore 210sq ft

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Some additional questions that could be added. I am looking at easing the handling of a larger standing lug main on my Romily; runs about 210 feet. I've not seen the use of lazy jacks with a standing lug, boomed or loose footed. Anyone with experience? Seems to me for a loose footed standing lug you could have a few grommets or eyes in the foot of the sail to handle the light lines.
    Secondly, Bolger used to use a light peak halyard or lift on his big luggers to keep the peak of the yard under control raising and lowering it. Has anyone had experience with one?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    My experience goes to 14 sq. M . I think the yard should be very light, carbon, and the sail also. I just recut the bal. Lug mainsail of a 22 ft lugger, was in heavy Clipper Canvas. Dacron would save weight. The owner is over 70 and hopes to sail her a bit longer.
    I think the Bolger peak halyard should work here.
    Www.oarandsail.nl

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    1,310

    Default Re: standing lug details

    I know what a peak halyard is but what is a Bolger peak halyard with respect to a balanced lug?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Yard hoisted with halyard: yard dives with top down. Second haliard close to top helps hoisting vertically and can also correct trim of yard

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    i cant see how lazy jacks would work with a boomless sail, but i am open to correction on this.
    but just to my way of thinking the lazy jacks have no reason to stay out extended away from the mast, i think they would collapse back towards the mast. but maybe if one kept tension on the sheet it would work- until it was all nicely furled up.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne nicol View Post
    i cant see how lazy jacks would work with a boomless sail, but i am open to correction on this.
    but just to my way of thinking the lazy jacks have no reason to stay out extended away from the mast, i think they would collapse back towards the mast. but maybe if one kept tension on the sheet it would work- until it was all nicely furled up.
    What you would need to do is indeed keep sheet tension on; in my particular case I have a full batten on the foot. That said I've not seen much about lazy jacks and lugs.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,132

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Bolger shows a balance lug of 270 sq. ft. with lazy jacks in 100 Small Boat Rigs. (P. 48) He notes that when the halyard is eased on such a setup, the yard will want to swing down and over and will have to be manhandled to get it to lie on the boom between the lazyjacks.

    I'll have a 150 sq. ft. balance lug on my next boat, and intend to rig lazy jacks -- partly to keep the sail from going over the side, and partly to double as topping lifts. I'll be playing with the geometry for some time, I expect, before I get a setup I'm happy with.
    -Dave

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    anybody have any experience with any sail lofts/kit sails designed by folk who know about lugs.
    was thinking about sail rite

    thanks Woxbox- i like the idea of the lazy jacks/topping lift combo to control the boom and the sail.
    the yard peak halliard is a good idea too.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    1,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Yard hoisted with halyard: yard dives with top down. Second haliard close to top helps hoisting vertically and can also correct trim of yard

    My brain only works in pictures, I think this is the sort of thing you are meaning but the peak halyard would run the other side of the mast towards the peak of the sail. This would control the yard and act as a parallel at the same time I presume



    This might interest people
    http://www.roxane-romilly.co.uk/Romilly/halyard-rigging

    Way beyond my scope of experience only ever played with up to fifty sq ft but interested in your discussions




    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Tink, that is what I use myself. Pictures of it in thread about Le Seil 18.
    Dave, I know how a lugsailyard often dives overboard when lowered, but I do not like more lines to a simple unstayed rig that must be set and lowered regularly. When I grew up we had a 16m2, a 6m keel dinghy with gaff main and a jib. Total area 16m2, and easy to handle, but more often not the peak halyard got caught between boom and gaff just when the mast was raised. I mean when you can leave the mast standing you can use all kind of lines, it is hard to keep it organized otherwise.
    Wayne, you live far away, but you could come over and I would help you build a lugsail. You can find a film where someone is sewing a lugsail for a Catherine Whitehall via my site. Www.oarandsail.nl

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    hollandboot 23-2.jpegHolland boot 23.jpeg This is the boat I recut the sail for. The main is larger then I thought would work, but the owner is satisfied and can handle the main while standing in the cockpit. The sails are Clipper Canvas and rather heavy, but the spars are carbon.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details



    thanks Tink, this looks really interesting, a kind of a peak halyard and hoisting halyard in one.
    it does defeat the deal for me, as i am trying to maximise sail are to mast length. but a very good idea none the less!!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    FF, i may very well take you up on that
    flying to the Netherlands is quite a cheap option for us from Canada.
    i am originally from South Africa- so I have a solid Dutch heritage- a place i have always wanted to visit.
    my wife lived there for a while.

    i have to agree- one of the deciding factors for me for the lug over my next best option, which is a sliding gunter, is the simplicity of it all, i want to get away from track, and slugs, and bolt ropes, and all the strings.
    a simply halyard- and maybe a boom vang if i need one on the standing lug. If i dont, i wont!!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    for my situation, the more i think about it, looks like the simplest method for me will be a sheave set in the mast, with the halyard hitched on the spar, then over the sheave down to the deck on the backside of the mast, through a block on the deck, and in the travel back to the cockpit, maybe put a multiple purchase in there on the deck somewhere. it wont be as efficient as right up at the mast top- but i just dont have the privilege of any extra mast length, unfortunately!!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    21,040

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Depending on exactly how your sails are cut you may want to pay close attention how to attach the halyard to the yard itself. Reefing can get interesting.
    This particular attachment method I worked out will keep the yard near the mast while lowering the rig while allowing a shift in the yard position for reefing.
    Mostly this will be trial and error to get the best set of the sail.
    (I do have a standing lug rigged boat)


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    2,555

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Where you attach the halyard is very important too. I can't tell you where that point is going to be found but from experience too far one way or the other can really affect the way your sail works.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Canoe, could that top block on the mast, be a sheave set into the mast, or do you think the flexibility of that loose block is better

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    21,040

    Default Re: standing lug details

    There is a tendancy for chafe at the halyard/mast. For me it was impossible to select the "correct" angle for the mast mortise, and because it could swivel, that hanging block solved it. There is also chafe along the yard for quite a distance, more than you might think at first. I ended up leathering at least 2 feet of the yard.
    The "loop" around the mast solved a lot of problems not the least being that it acted as a lazy jack... The typical "ring" used for a balanced lug would jam more often than not, and the one saving grace of that rig is it will come down immediately, and that little detail can save your bacon.
    Reefing changes the geometry of the entire thing.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    by the ring, you mean the beaded parrell?
    ok, so the mortise in the mast to hold the sheave, i get it, so when the yard swivels then the angle to the sheave is not in a straight line anymore.
    i can see that the hanging block would only add a few inches to the top of the mast- so not too big a deal.

    the loop from the throat around the mast replaces the need for the Parrell.

    i really like the simplicity of it all.

    how is the yard peak affected with this setup, when the halyard is released- it would still want to dive, would it not?
    i do plan for lazyjacks though!
    and sadly, do imagine that a boomvang may be needed for running.

    mine are to be boomed standing lugs, the freestanding masts will have the ability to rotate in their sockets, so am tossing up the pros and cons of jaws on the boom, and a downhaul, or a simple gooseneck attachment- what are your thoughts on that.
    seems like the gooseneck will be less complicated, and with the mast being able to swivel- it will make running downwind easier and safer-inasmuch, that the sheets could be eased and wind being allowed to spill off the leach.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Depending on exactly how your sails are cut you may want to pay close attention how to attach the halyard to the yard itself. Reefing can get interesting.
    This particular attachment method I worked out will keep the yard near the mast while lowering the rig while allowing a shift in the yard position for reefing.
    Mostly this will be trial and error to get the best set of the sail.
    (I do have a standing lug rigged boat)

    This is the system I use on RANTAN my sail and oar boat. A couple of biners makes removing the sail fast.

    The postings in 14/16/ and 18 show the rig in Irens Romilly. You need the extra purchase in the halyard because of the weight of the yard and sail even in carbon. Not an issue in the typical oar/sail boat. After studying the Romilly forum I've opted to replace the two ear ring with a 4 ear ring and switch from a double block to to two singles to get a fairer lead.

    The second "halyard" is really a choker or snotter designed to keep the spar vertical. This may be an Irens invention as I haven't seen it in any of the rigging literature. I'll rig it and see how it works. Looks like you have to keep tension in it as you hoist the sail to keep the yard under control and the same dropping the sail. What Bolger did was run a line out to the peak of the yard that had no load on it when sailing but took the yard load when lowering the sail. You would take it up as you hoisted to keep the yard horizontal. In none of these cases does the mast rotate as it isn't needed.

    What I am really curious about is rigging lazy jacks as going single handed I can see how they could keep things under control on the drop.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Ben, I understand most Romily's now changed their standing lug to balanced lugsail. Some tie a rope at the heel of the yard around the mast so the yard is in the same position as when hoisted. The owner of the HB23 uses blocks to hoist the sail when standing in the cockpit. I think lazyjacks should work and attached to masttop and down to foot, but better to boom. I think you can easily add a boom to find out.
    Perhaps it would be best to make a trip to France to study the way the French do it with their big luggers. I would like to come along.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    21,040

    Default Re: standing lug details


    I stumbled on that halyard arrangement maybe 40 years ago. Straight out of WP Stephens book (one of the plates I think) it is obscure. I was trying to solve the problem of having to relocate the halyard attachment when reefing and... a fixed ring or parrells will actually prevent the yard from lowering by creating a bind between the tack, clew outhaul and the mast parrel. (You'll see...) With a boomless sail it is not a problem but it won't sail nearly as well.
    It worked very well for me, and I made that sketch for someone? on the forum many years ago, because I couldn't describe it in less than a thousand words... The fitting to hold the block on the yard was just a flat bronze strap with an eye hammered into the middle of it and seized on. (No point load to break the yard)

    As far as lowering the sail safely, I was always standing at the mast to lower away, so could just hold tension on the luff to keep the peak under control. With lazy jacks, you can just let it go, it will all fall into place perfectly in about 2 seconds - often saving my butt.
    And Yes, a boom vang is a great asset of the wind, and you will find the vang will often substitute for a downhaul (too much sometimes)

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Wayne, you can pm me.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: standing lug details

    I think I ran across this system first in Spritsails and Lugsails and I don't recall where Leather first saw it, possibly in WP. I know about the binding issue as I've run into it on my sail/ oar boat. I've just used a simple strop on which to make the block fast. Strop goes into a closed biner. On the oar/ sail boat I lower from amidhships and grab the leech as it comes down.

    On the Romilly the halyard cleat is aft so control has to happen by the heel rope or potentially by a peak halyard.

    My row sail boat is standing lug with full battens; the lowest batten is stiffer than the others which makes it work pretty well down wind. Sail has been cut to be self vanging. On the Romilly I'll have to see; I'd just as soon do without a boom which could be possible with the full battens. I can see when the main gets replace d making somewhat self vanging as well.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  30. #30
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Ben, forgive my ignorance, but how do they cut the sail so that it is self vanging.
    sounds interesting

    could that be done with a boomed standing lug, so as to eliminate the boom vang

  31. #31
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    something like this i imagine?

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    9,034

    Default Re: standing lug details

    That spritsail is not self-vanging. Move the boom to the other side of the sail and its forward end up so that it crosses the mast in the same general area as the sprit, with it's peak angled down, and you will have a self vanging configuration. This is created by the triangle of tension between the boom, foot and lower luff. You also generally want to remove any foot round on a self-vanging configuration, as it will be outside of the triangle and can't do much other than flap.

    I'd think very carefully about the idea of a self-vanging traditional standing lug - especially a really big one. Being able to allow it to twist to leeward up high is one of your prime depowering tools in heavy air. Self-vanging configurations will likely greatly limit that. Substantial sail twist can be both a bad thing in terms of getting maximum power from the sail, but also at times a very good thing in a blow.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,385

    Default Re: standing lug details

    I do not have a boom but full battens. Instead of making the clew approximately level with the tack, it is lifted considerably so that there is maybe 18" between the lower batten and the tack on a foot that is maybe 7' long. So you have a triangle that resists twist, but it isn't perfect so that the sail still twists some. The rig needed experimentation with the stiffness of the lower batten; I ended up putting in a pair of glass battens. This all on a 110sq foot very high aspect ratio sail.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    Thanks Todd!
    i gotcha!

    i just googled "self vanging sails" and this is what popped up.
    but i get the picture now-
    i am not planning on a sprit rig, .
    i will accept that i will need to just put a boomvang on each sail- and use it as needed, as i currently do.

    Ben, have you got any pictures of your sail and set up- i would love to see the high aspect sail parameters.
    many thanks

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    western canada, ex safa
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: standing lug details

    so heres a very subjective question?
    where is the sweet spot for how much yard/ sail ahead of the mast for a standing lug.
    now i understand that sail shape and design has a lot to do with overall design, but just looking at the sail, what % works best.

    i understand that leverage comes into play- the less yard behind the mast- the lower the luff tension.

    what is the best ratio?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •