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Thread: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

  1. #1
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    Default It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Shouldn't it be?

    Isn't our problem the many lies told by Trump, and many others, for political gain?

    Why isn't this fraud?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Immoral but, not illegal. Every pol loves. What's different here is that Trump lies, on average, nine times a day.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    Immoral but, not illegal. Every pol loves. What's different here is that Trump lies, on average, nine times a day.
    Lying for political gain seems to fit right into the definition of 'fraud'. It's far more harmful than any offensive tweet.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Shouldn't it be?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Isn't our problem the many lies told by Trump, and many others, for political gain?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Why isn't this fraud?
    Because it's political speech.
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Maybe, like Alice, he can say six impossible things before breakfast

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Of course not. It's stupid and people who lie should get caught. Public shame should be the sentence.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    No.



    No.



    Because it's political speech.
    Fraud's definition excludes political speech?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Of course not. It's stupid and people who lie should get caught. Public shame should be the sentence.
    A large chunk of the population don't know they're being lied to.

    Why should we not expect, REQUIRE, our elected people, their spokes people, their ads, etc. to be truthful?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Who decides the truth? There is s lot to that question.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Fraud's definition excludes political speech?
    The USSC said so.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Who decides the truth? There is s lot to that question.
    Bingo
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Who decides the truth? There is s lot to that question.
    Some things, as the size of his electoral victory, are demonstrable. Gingrich a couple of years back told us the shoe bomber was an American citizen, because to validate Gingrich's argument at the time, he needed the shoe bomber to be an American citizen, but he was a British citizen. When Romney said, emphatically, and his ads continued to say, JEEP was moving all production to CHINA, it was a made up story. JEEP denied it immediately. But the ads kept running.

    I think we get what we deserve when we are okay with our politicians telling us lies. And when we're okay with the 'news' telling us lies.

    How can a democracy expect to succeed if the voters are misinformed?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Ok, i will buy that. Its more of a, I did not have sexual relations with that woman, vs, this budget plan will help jobs...

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Then of course, we must have a due diligence clause, where a person who is plainly wrong vs lying, can be safe from consequences. Imagine one candidate feeding the other lies to get him to say something wrong, then accuse him of lying, just to get political points. What a nightmare.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    What about campaign promises? We vote for the promises, dont care who it is saying it. If they dont deliver, can it ve a breach of contract, no pension for you?

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Then of course, we must have a due diligence clause, where a person who is plainly wrong vs lying, can be safe from consequences. Imagine one candidate feeding the other lies to get him to say something wrong, then accuse him of lying, just to get political points. What a nightmare.
    Sounds like Trump and Rudy! Oh wait, they are on the same side!

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    What about campaign promises? We vote for the promises, dont care who it is saying it. If they dont deliver, can it ve a breach of contract, no pension for you?
    Should be treated as a Prospectus, with the same penalties as those for false prospectuses for a start. And it is fraud, the biggest fraud possible considerin the power that a should be criminal fraudster can accrue.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Id like to see the campaign promise thing happen. With due diligence as well. Maybe the voters who elected the president get to vote on whether he deserves a pension or not, will fire tjeir a$$ up to deliver on what was promised.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Let me ask it this way:

    Are you all perfectly fine with Colin Powell being sent to the UN to lie to the world about Iraq's weapons program?

    The Bush administration changing the EPA report and lying to the people digging through the ground zero rubble about the air quality?

    How many people died because of those lies?

    How can anyone accept this?

    We did not need to invade Iraq: the weapons inspectors had total, unfettered access in Nov. of 2002. But the lies continued, and we did invade Iraq. Look what it cost in blood and treasure.

    And there are people here who don't object to our elected people lying?

    I really need someone to explain to me how anything built on a foundation of lies can last.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sleek View Post
    Id like to see the campaign promise thing happen. With due diligence as well. Maybe the voters who elected the president get to vote on whether he deserves a pension or not, will fire tjeir a$$ up to deliver on what was promised.
    I think we should expect those elected to at least try to do what they promised. Trying and failing is not the same as forgetting what they promised.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default

    If it was illegal to lie, they could not accept any advertising and, therefore, cease to exist.


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    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Let me ask it this way:

    Are you all perfectly fine with Colin Powell being sent to the UN to lie to the world about Iraq's weapons program?

    The Bush administration changing the EPA report and lying to the people digging through the ground zero rubble about the air quality?

    How many people died because of those lies?

    How can anyone accept this?

    We did not need to invade Iraq: the weapons inspectors had total, unfettered access in Nov. of 2002. But the lies continued, and we did invade Iraq. Look what it cost in blood and treasure.

    And there are people here who don't object to our elected people lying?

    I really need someone to explain to me how anything built on a foundation of lies can last.
    That's all false dichotomy, between lies being criminal, and lies having no consequences.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Shouldn't it be?

    Isn't our problem the many lies told by Trump, and many others, for political gain?

    Why isn't this fraud?
    LOL...that is rich.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Let me ask it this way:

    Are you all perfectly fine with Colin Powell being sent to the UN to lie to the world about Iraq's weapons program?

    The Bush administration changing the EPA report and lying to the people digging through the ground zero rubble about the air quality?

    How many people died because of those lies?

    How can anyone accept this?

    We did not need to invade Iraq: the weapons inspectors had total, unfettered access in Nov. of 2002. But the lies continued, and we did invade Iraq. Look what it cost in blood and treasure.

    And there are people here who don't object to our elected people lying?

    I really need someone to explain to me how anything built on a foundation of lies can last.
    Some of those responsible should have been tried for mass murder, and hung.
    But that creates a precedent for 'leaders' of countries and the leaders club, of all stamps, are very nervous about that..
    Likely the USSC judges complicit should share the penalty.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    If it was illegal to lie, they could not accept any advertising and, therefore, cease to exist.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I have a problem with the lack of truth in advertising, but when politicians lie, people often die, and I cannot understand why I'm such a lone voice being upset with this.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    That's all false dichotomy, between lies being criminal, and lies having no consequences.
    We expect a witness to tell the truth. If he does not, it's perjury, and that is a crime. Why do we accept less from our politicians? Their lies often kill people.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post

    Because it's political speech.
    Do you remember this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...tion-lies.html

    Do you really think that lying politicians are tolerable?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Some of those responsible should have been tried for mass murder, and hung.
    But that creates a precedent for 'leaders' of countries and the leaders club, of all stamps, are very nervous about that..
    Likely the USSC judges complicit should share the penalty.
    Lying by politicians isn't new, but as we've been accepting it as free speech, it becomes more widespread.

    It didn't begin with Agent Orange, but that's a good place to look. Our government LIED to the very military they keep telling us we should respect. If they respected the military, they'd not lie to them.

    FOX has been caught often telling us things as fact that are simply not true.

    I've tried to make my argument on this for a very long time. Obviously, I've gotten little to no support, as everyone tells me it's free speech.

    I watched virtually the entire senate debate on the ACA, and Republican senators simply told us lies. The clip on youtube of Al Franken responding to John Thune, was not unique. The entire 'death panel' thing was false: Jon Stewart grabbed the page Betsy McCaughey (?) was referring to and read it. What she and others were calling 'death panels' was language insuring life sustaining requests would be honored.

    People can hold opinions that are wrong, and that would be free speech. But when they state something as a fact, it ought to be a fact. Many of the 'facts' they present are demonstrably wrong.

    We are now at a place where 'alternative' facts are perfectly acceptable, and that, IMO, puts our nation in great peril.

    Does anyone really believe FOX did not know that no Eagles had taken knees during the anthem when they used pictures of players praying to make a false point? Should we not expect, no, Require, news outlets to do better than that?

    AND NOW we have children being taking from parents at the border, even if the family is seeking asylum. We are told by the administration that this is following the law IT IS NOT!. We are told it is a law the Dems came up with: NOT TRUE. but many of our citizens will believe it is true because they hear it on the 'news' and our AG is telling them it is fact.

    Is this really free speech. A lot of people are suffering a great deal because we're enforcing a law that GOP wishes existed.
    Last edited by John Smith; 06-06-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    We expect a witness to tell the truth. If he does not, it's perjury, and that is a crime. Why do we accept less from our politicians? Their lies often kill people.
    Good question. First let's answer mine: are making political lying criminal and doing nothing the only two choices?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Good question. First let's answer mine: are making political lying criminal and doing nothing the only two choices?
    You got something in mind?

    What's wrong with the British model?
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    The problem isn't that politicians lie. It's that the American public is too stupid to know they're being lied to and/or they just don't care.

    We get the government we deserve because we don't hold our leaders accountable for their lies and crimes. No law forcing politicians to tell the truth all of the time (if that were even possible or constitutional, which I highly doubt it is) is going to change that as long as the general population doesn't care enough to be educated about the issues and to be involved in the process.

    Democracy won't die because politicians lie. It will die because the majority of voters just don't care enough about it. Instituting some sort of "Truth Committee" backed by the government and the courts to determine who is/is not telling the truth is a step AWAY from democracy and a step TOWARD fascism/totalitarianism. Look at history and see where this sort of thing inevitably leads. It isn't greater freedom and better government.
    Last edited by BrianY; 06-06-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    The problem isn't that politicians lie. It's that the American public is too stupid to know they're being lied to and/or they just don't care.

    We get the government we deserve because we don't hold our leaders accountable for their lies and crimes. No law forcing politicians to tell the truth all of the time (if that were even possible or constitutional, which I highly doubt it is) is going to change that as long as the general population doesn't care enough to be educated about the issues and to be involved in the process.

    Democracy won't die because politicians lie. It will die because the majority of voters just don't care enough about it. Instituting some sort of "Truth Committee" to determine who is/is not telling the truth is a step AWAY from democracy and a step TOWARD fascism/totalitarianism. Look at history and see where this sort of thing inevitably leads. It isn't greater freedom and better government.
    While there is some truth to the rest of your post, I have to disagree strongly with the bolded bit.

    The fact is - a well-informed public is key to our style of governance. Problem is - we've gotten WAY too good at distorting the facts. Propaganda techniques have gotten quite refined. There's no way the average voter - living their lives, working their jobs, raising their families, and trying to enjoy some recreation time - can become informed enough to counter that insidious misinformation. Unless they make it their job... or a bit of a hobby - as some of us have.

    Now (putting on my junior economist hat) lets talk about incentives. Who has more motivation? Those who want to seize the levers of power so that they can further tilt the playing field, and garner huge short-term profits/windfalls? Or that larger, more diffuse, group for whom voting/politics is simply a civic duty with no prospect of large immediate financial gain?

    Those who understand capitalism - both its excellent characteristics, and its dangers - have, in the past, mostly done a good job of keeping the pure-capitalist greedheads... the laissez-faire lovers with no concept or awareness of how our Republic shelters their activites... sufficiently segregated from the sort of decision-making roles that they are so dangerously ill-suited for. But sometimes we forget. Sometimes the short-sighted gain the reins. Like during the Roaring 20's. Like now. They didn't do it because the citizens are stupid. They did it because, after a while, we - as a society - tend to forget the prior hard-won lessons. It's simply human nature.

    I wouldn't mind laws to make it more difficult for the short-sighted greedy to lie to us in order to gain political power. That's really not a role they play well, and we all eventually pay the price. And they don't/won't stop. It's just how they're wired. They want more, and they don't much care how they get it. Such cupidity is also part of human nature - for some - and can be productively channeled. But it's a disaster when given leadership roles.
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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You got something in mind?
    The status quo. You?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The status quo. You?
    No precise and detailed policy prescription yet, but see #32.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: It's not illegal to lie to the NY Times

    David -

    While I agree that it impossible for everyone to keep up with everything and to spend the time to parse every statement for veracity, I stand by my statement about people being too stupid because even when it is obvious to EVERYONE and easily demonstrated to anyone with half a brain that a politician is lying (cough, cough... Donald Trump), a significant number of people refuse believe to or can't understand that they're being lied to.

    The exploitive capitalists and politicians know this and use it to their advantage.
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

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