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Thread: skin on frame sailboat?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Even at the size of build you're considering, you'll need to find a way to leverage this boat up onto the roof of your truck. Guaranteed you'll figure out a way to do it, though. I had a 13' SOF Gentry Whitehall and it was just on the edge of what I could lever up there. I usually found a way to skid it up from behind the truck up onto the rack. Or I'd have my wife come on out and help me pick the thing up. There was just that much less of a chance that I'd drop the thing or dent my truck. Getting it off was much easier. Gravity did most of the work.
    You may recall, when I built Meerkat, she was designed to fit in the bed of my truck without sticking out too far. That put a limitation on length that made it hard to take friends sailing, which is what I'm trying to overcome here. I wonder if Splinter is good for sailing two up or more?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I actually have considered this, although many of these are a bit wet for sailing in the waters I live near. From my perspective, part of the beauty of these is that they come apart, and you don't have to lift the whole thing at once.
    Fair play, what about a small Trimaran, same advantages of light individual parts with the advantage of most of your body inside and out of the weather. You could even go more kayak than canoe and use a spray deck.

    Frank Smoot has a 14 ft tri at 110 pounds all up on face book - but I canít find reference on his site http://www.diy-tris.com/2012/new-boats-n-photos.htm

    With craft like these the devil is in the detail to get it simple and quick to rig but working it all out is part of the fun.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Fair play, what about a small Trimaran, same advantages of light individual parts with the advantage of most of your body inside and out of the weather. You could even go more kayak than canoe and use a spray deck.

    Frank Smoot has a 14 ft tri at 110 pounds all up on face book - but I can’t find reference on his site http://www.diy-tris.com/2012/new-boats-n-photos.htm

    With craft like these the devil is in the detail to get it simple and quick to rig but working it all out is part of the fun.
    I was thinking about such a boat in connection with Zest, Roger Woods' design with hiking racks with flotation. He built amas for his own boat, turning it into a trimaran. I was thinking of maybe a narrow dinghy with amas well above the water, that would be more forgiving than a normal dinghy with hiking racks but with lighter amas than a true trimaran.

  4. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I was thinking about such a boat in connection with Zest, Roger Woods' design with hiking racks with flotation. He built amas for his own boat, turning it into a trimaran. I was thinking of maybe a narrow dinghy with amas well above the water, that would be more forgiving than a normal dinghy with hiking racks but with lighter amas than a true trimaran.

    What about Michael Storer’s C12 Club as a starting point it probably offers more protection than the Zest and I am not sure you need the complexity of a double bottom.

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...racing-dinghy/



    As a concept - a monohull with outriggers it is a good route as this guy proved picking up an old ISO for peanuts and adding outriggers

    https://youtu.be/y79a5qejTFY



    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
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    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa

  5. #40
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    The double bottom would be nice, but by the time you've added outrigger is the boat still likely to be able to continue sailing after a capsize? BTW, what does the Cub weigh?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Sailing a canoe as I do, I see no reason that a SOF sailing canoe would not work similarly.
    SOF sailing canoes work great.


    johnw: "So, here's the thing. If it's true to Chapelle's lines, it's not a planing hull, and that's one of the things I wanted."
    Just so (which I did note), and it seemed you were looking for speed, hence my mention of the Annabelle Skiff - I've had her up on plane with two aboard. Clearly not self rescuing/baling, though she does have permanent floatation installed.

    I see no issues with the Avenger or similar, if you want to go that way.

    An outrigger canoe can be very fast indeed. I've got a couple out, with another on the way. I took this one on the Everglades Challenge this year. Err, with different amas, rather than these 24' long bamboo logs.

    Fast, stable and easy. This one, in the style of a Perahu Katir from Indonesia, was quite dry in the rough stuff. And fast. Hard to tack and a tight fit in lots of places, though.
    Multi-hull small boats are tedious to rig and de-rig, so cartopping gets old fast.

    I've had two people in Splinter (while paddling), btw, but she's definitely a one person + dog or small child boat. I have a larger single outrigger canoe on the drawing board, but it will be a while until I can get around to building it.

    Hybrid bottoms work well - my Gunning Dory has one, and I've got a couple more with those bottoms coming up. They do add plenty of weight, relatively speaking.

    I like the Avenger. The H14 is another multi-chined dinghy that would be great for a SOF conversion.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    SOF sailing canoes work great.


    johnw: "So, here's the thing. If it's true to Chapelle's lines, it's not a planing hull, and that's one of the things I wanted."
    Just so (which I did note), and it seemed you were looking for speed, hence my mention of the Annabelle Skiff - I've had her up on plane with two aboard. Clearly not self rescuing/baling, though she does have permanent floatation installed.

    I see no issues with the Avenger or similar, if you want to go that way.

    An outrigger canoe can be very fast indeed. I've got a couple out, with another on the way. I took this one on the Everglades Challenge this year. Err, with different amas, rather than these 24' long bamboo logs.

    Fast, stable and easy. This one, in the style of a Perahu Katir from Indonesia, was quite dry in the rough stuff. And fast. Hard to tack and a tight fit in lots of places, though.
    Multi-hull small boats are tedious to rig and de-rig, so cartopping gets old fast.

    I've had two people in Splinter (while paddling), btw, but she's definitely a one person + dog or small child boat. I have a larger single outrigger canoe on the drawing board, but it will be a while until I can get around to building it.

    Hybrid bottoms work well - my Gunning Dory has one, and I've got a couple more with those bottoms coming up. They do add plenty of weight, relatively speaking.

    I like the Avenger. The H14 is another multi-chined dinghy that would be great for a SOF conversion.
    Thanks for reminding me of the Annabelle skiff. I currently have a 9' 6" stitch and goo dinghy, and find it a little cramped for two people. I do like monohulls for their carrying capacity and maneuverability. I do think I'll need something a little longer than Annabelle, but I find the boat attractive and suspect the web frame construction would be stiff enough.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Have you settled on a boat yet? A boat I would consider looking at is Robert Morris's Providence River Boat. You can look up mark Ruetens pictures of the one he built. It has over a 5ft beam, and lacks a daggerboard so its extra roomy, It's unfortunately 150#, though i wouildnt recommend changing someone's design without some considerable knowledge in design, It's definitely over engineered in my opinion, and some things like in any SOF sailboat can be removable for car topping with some ingenuity. For example, the floorboards can be removable with Velcro, I've seen people build removable thwart seats for Dave Gentry's whitehall as well (this is more risky in a ribbed boat in my opinion), alternative can be used for the metal fastners, and if you seal the keel bolts on the interior by sinking and doweling the bolt head, the exterior keel could be removable. Robert Morris uses an exterior full keel as the source of strength instead of the gunwales and forgoes a daggerboard all together which I prefer.

    Also some rigging options require less stiffness than others for example a gaff rig with its running stays are said to be less strenuous than a bermuda particularly for a full keel boat.

    I'm currently making Dave Gentry's whitehall, but my next one will probably be a mix of the whitehall and the providence river boat because I love the whitehall design, but prefer some of Morris's design decisions to make it sailable.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Hmm. 250 hours instead of 30 hours. I wish I could get a better look at the Melonseed's hull shape, is it a profile boat that is intended to look like the original, or does it follow traditional lines?
    Isn't the plan from the WB store based on Chapelle's plan?

    Image frpm http://www.melonseed.com/melonseed-the-story.html
    More images here: http://sebagocanoeclub.blogspot.com/2010/09/
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Isn't the plan from the WB store based on Chapelle's plan?

    Image frpm http://www.melonseed.com/melonseed-the-story.html
    More images here: http://sebagocanoeclub.blogspot.com/2010/09/
    Thanks for the links. Yes, the shape is pretty close.

    I've had to put this on the back shelf. The landlord has decided to tear down the building my bookstore is in, so until life settles down again, I won't be building any boats.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You may recall, when I built Meerkat, she was designed to fit in the bed of my truck without sticking out too far. That put a limitation on length that made it hard to take friends sailing, which is what I'm trying to overcome here. I wonder if Splinter is good for sailing two up or more?
    Those receiver hitch truck extensions make carrying longer boats 15 foot or so in a PU bed pretty easy. Joe Liener used to slide his ducker or his melonseed into the back of one of those big old 50's station wagons.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I'm interested in this thread, I also dream of a light car top dinghy to sail. My current solution is an ultralight canoe with a BSD rig. The 15' hull weighs 43#, but is less than ideal for sailing. It was never designed to sail, if kept upright against to much breeze the frameless hull suffers damage. It's only got room for one and will ship water easily being narrow and shallow. On the plus side it's easy to paddle, pretty and light enough to carry over soft sand. I have two Seahopper folding dinghies, 8' and 10'. Neither has a rig, but both are designed for one. They weigh 53 and 75 pounds, and the thwarts come out masking them lighter to move. Each has a flat bottom which should permit planing, I'm pretty sure I've seen a video of a 10' sailing very fast in high wind. One of these days I'll put a rig in one or both and report my results.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I have had a 17' Grumman canoe with the 65 sq.ft. sliding gunter rig for 40+ years. It sails remarkably well, and it is partly due to the very stiff hull and also the large sail. Before that I had two Foldboats and a Klepper with sail rigs. The Klepper was the most refined, but the hull was not stiff enough. With me sitting on the hiking seat at the stern of the cockpit, it would twist maybe 10 degrees from the bow to the stern.

    The Grumman rig looks odd, because the mast is mounted so far forward, and the aft end of the boom is well inboard of the stern, but with the lee-boards in the correct place it is balanced. This the white water (shoe keel) version of the canoe, so it will turn more quickly and will generally come about with out any problem. The rudder is controlled by a rope tiller that runs from the cross on the rudder up to blocks on midships thwart. I put a colored wipping on the tiller rope at the midships point and it feels almost like a normal tiller. As a bonus you can grab it any where along the rope so it is kind of a built in hiking stick. The biggest down side to the canoe, is that it is not self rescuing. If I was going to sail it more, I should put some more flotation it it so it would come up dry enough to bail out.
    Last edited by Ski-Patroller; 08-29-2018 at 02:29 PM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    All my boatbuilding dreams are on hold until I figure out what to do about the fact that the building my bookstore is in will be torn down. I have to be out by the end of March, so some big changes are in the offing.

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Pity about the store being destroyed.
    Hope you continue to come here for "relaxation".

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Sorry John, I hope it all works out as well as possible.

    Ski-Patroller, I have swamped my sailing canoe in winter and swam it ashore. Thankful for wetsuits. Now I use inflatable raft seats as bouyancy bags. The are tough, reasonably priced, and fit tightly in the ends.

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    My decked Macgrggor is also extremely difficult to self rescue and I have been far more conservative about where and when I sail after having a few hours in the water swimming against the tide.
    I now use a couple of inflatable beach rollers that tie under the side decks. They are also large enough to sit on as I do not use a seat at all in the canoe. You get less water inside and that makes recovery somewhat easier, and you can sail it half swamped as you bail. I experimented with a pedal operated bailer but it was not all that practical, but that may have been more a matter of my jury rig design rather than the concept.



    Yeadon, #35
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t25X9F08Np4

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    All my boatbuilding dreams are on hold until I figure out what to do about the fact that the building my bookstore is in will be torn down. I have to be out by the end of March, so some big changes are in the offing.
    The dreams can continue. The realization will be delayed. I hope things work out well for you in a new location. You arguably have more time to think about the SOF sailboat, aside from spending that time taking care of everything else.

    The heavy sheer streak in the Cape Falcon guideboat (that Bill Mercer wants to trailer) along with a band of 3mm okoume at the mast partner might give you the stiffness you need without too much extra weight. My first thought for the stiffener was a foot or so of plywood wrapped around the bottom straight across at the mast partner, but it might look and work better to use narrower (3-4" wide?) diagonal bands starting at the gunnel and running forward and aft to the keel. Then again, having linked to Cape Falcon, they have a sailing ducker. Looks like a plywood deck will do the trick. {EDIT: Hmm, I was afraid of that -- Ben already mentioned that boat in Post #2 Oh well , I like the picture anyway.}
    https://www.capefalconkayaks.com/delaware-ducker.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Mercer View Post
    Like the title says, I'm working on setting up a trailer so that I can actually use my boat.
    <snip>
    Thoughts?
    To whom it will inexplicably concern: No, I am not suggesting a sail on a guideboat. What a sacrilege.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 08-30-2018 at 11:10 PM.
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    Sorry John, I hope it all works out as well as possible.

    Ski-Patroller, I have swamped my sailing canoe in winter and swam it ashore. Thankful for wetsuits. Now I use inflatable raft seats as bouyancy bags. The are tough, reasonably priced, and fit tightly in the ends.
    I have only swamped it once, but that was enough. We did a traditional canoe over canoe rescue using my WW boat that my wife was paddling at the time. I have bow and stern bags in the WW boat, and also have water proof cargo bags full of plastic peanuts in the center of the boat when running significant rapids. I would really like a way to put some foam on either side of the center area of the Grumman, or any other sailing canoe, so it came up fairly dry when righted. I haven't figured out a good way to do that so far, since I want to be able to remove them when not sailing.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I've thought about adding foam noodles or similar to the outside with straps to improve both buoyancy and stability. My canoe is only 28" wide.

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Mine 32". The shape of the canoe, being basically a round section, makes it inherently 'tender'. Flooded it is extremely difficult to reboard. and then it is completely unstable. The rollers mean it does not flood to such a degree and can be sailed in this condition if necessary.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I don't use a canoe, especially I don't sail one.

    Does all this agreement on the difficulty of reboarding a canoe mean that the basic design should be changed?
    All this talk of add on noodles, etc., on the outside seems to indicate a basic flaw.

    How would it be redesigned?

    I did once roll a Royalex canoe, it was extremely difficult to paddle to the shore flooded, and it floated right at the gunwale - with me in it.
    No stability at all as skuthorp said.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    I don't use a canoe, especially I don't sail one.

    Does all this agreement on the difficulty of reboarding a canoe mean that the basic design should be changed?
    All this talk of add on noodles, etc., on the outside seems to indicate a basic flaw.

    How would it be redesigned?

    I did once roll a Royalex canoe, it was extremely difficult to paddle to the shore flooded, and it floated right at the gunwale - with me in it.
    No stability at all as skuthorp said.
    I wonder about a sideways-hinged buoyant rig used as an outrigger to help re-boarding and avoid having a sail thrashing about overhead while things are got in order. Once ready the rig could just be pulled vertical again to sail away.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Won't sideways hinged rigs tend to fall down?
    How would you build that?

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    interesting thread

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I guess that one way would be to mount the mast on a windsurfing universal joint and support it with forestay and shrouds. After a capsize you could loosen one of the shrouds, right the hull while the rig lies on the water, re-enter, bail then pull the mast back up? I am sure there would be other ways.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I guess that one way would be to mount the mast on a windsurfing universal joint and support it with forestay and shrouds. After a capsize you could loosen one of the shrouds, right the hull while the rig lies on the water, re-enter, bail then pull the mast back up? I am sure there would be other ways.
    Seems like there's got to be a simpler way. If there's going to be much tension on the stays, it's usually time consuming to get the rig up and properly tensioned, let alone do so after a capsize.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by pandes View Post
    interesting thread
    Some years ago I started one on the same subject, I do not think a satisfactory answer was reached after a long discussion. Sailing a canoe is risky, and could quite easily be fatal which is why I would not sell mine to anyone as a sailing craft. Where I live is a large shallow bay with a big tide fall and dries to mud out to a kilometer in places, the Mac sails on as little as 4-5 inches of water, which capacity can get you home where other boats would be stranded. The man whose boat is in our Forum header, Norm Messenger told me it was best suited for lakes and waters where you could swim home. He was right. Horses for courses.
    That said with a load of supplies it's been great for touring, weight tames it's flightyness you can pack a generous fortnights supplies in drums and she's perfectly tractable. I also row her, with an underwater profile like a planked rowing shell it's fast.

    With such a split personality I named her after my mum.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    I don't use a canoe, especially I don't sail one.

    Does all this agreement on the difficulty of reboarding a canoe mean that the basic design should be changed?
    All this talk of add on noodles, etc., on the outside seems to indicate a basic flaw.

    How would it be redesigned?

    I did once roll a Royalex canoe, it was extremely difficult to paddle to the shore flooded, and it floated right at the gunwale - with me in it.
    No stability at all as skuthorp said.
    Canoes are very good for paddling, especially when you want to carry some gear, or be able to get in in from a dock or a foot of water. It is a lot easier to carry a dog or child in a canoe than a Kayak. The advantages for sailing are less obvious. Mine is very fast in a blow, but I would not sail it in a place where I could not get some assistance if I swamped it. Additional flotation would help but it would have to be on the inside of the sides of the boat to really make it easy to self rescue. White Water canoes usually have a lot of flotation but it is mostly there to keep the boat from filling with too much water when it is swamped. Lots of good solo paddlers and a few really good tandem paddlers can roll an open canoe and keep paddling though there will be considerable water in the boat.

    My Royalex boat always has bow and stern bags, and we put in large center bags for serious white water.

    Oddly enough, and to my surprise, my new to me Cosine Wherry is in some ways more tender than my canoes. The canoes are easier to board in a foot or so of water, and easier to retrieve something that is overboard. Mostly because it is a lot easier to stand or kneel in the center of a canoe a reach over the side because it is less than 3 ft wide. To reach over side of the wherry you have to move off the center line of the boat.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I paddled K1's and 2's and was a climber. My balance is very good as a consequence and I can walk about in my canoe. Where your head is in relation to your feet is the secret. Bodily geometry sort of.
    At 75 I'm not as good at as I was.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Re- sailing canoe capsize:

    Decking on Chautauqua hides built-in flotation in the ends and under the side decks. And, the side decks keep the cockpit above the water in a capsize. She's wider than a Mac, et al. though, so that won't be a real option for them.

    Regardless of that, I also added some small bungees to those decks, under which will fit an oar (or paddle) projecting outwards. A paddle float over the oar blade makes for an effective outrigger, (hopefully) allowing one to re-board and/or bail as needed. Google "paddle float rescue" -it's a sea kayak thing.

    On the Everglades Challenge in Chautauqua, I brought a small battery powered bilge pump, too. Ostensibly to help de-water after a capsize, but it did come in handy when beating into the rougher stuff.

    JohnW - sorry about the book shop drama. Hope it all works out well.

    Dave

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Re- sailing canoe capsize:

    Decking on Chautauqua hides built-in flotation in the ends and under the side decks. And, the side decks keep the cockpit above the water in a capsize. She's wider than a Mac, et al. though, so that won't be a real option for them.

    Regardless of that, I also added some small bungees to those decks, under which will fit an oar (or paddle) projecting outwards. A paddle float over the oar blade makes for an effective outrigger, (hopefully) allowing one to re-board and/or bail as needed. Google "paddle float rescue" -it's a sea kayak thing.

    On the Everglades Challenge in Chautauqua, I brought a small battery powered bilge pump, too. Ostensibly to help de-water after a capsize, but it did come in handy when beating into the rougher stuff.

    JohnW - sorry about the book shop drama. Hope it all works out well.

    Dave
    Thanks, it's pretty tough for small bookstores to make it these days.

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Likewise re your bookshop John, but here in Melbourne book sales have picked up again. New and second hand.

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    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Likewise re your bookshop John, but here in Melbourne book sales have picked up again. New and second hand.
    Good to hear!

    Here's what's happening in the U.S.:



    As the number of printed books sold has fallen by about half, the number of bookstores has fallen in proportion, and the number of booksellers:

    Last edited by johnw; 09-01-2018 at 05:23 PM.

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    May 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    2,125

    Default Re: skin on frame sailboat?

    I checked here in Ft. Worth.
    There was 2 small stores, 3 Barnes and Noble, 4 Christian stores, and Half priced books.

    Barnes and Noble has gotten an arrogant attitude with the lack of competition.
    I try to go to Half Price Books.

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