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Thread: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

  1. #1
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    Default "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    I am in the planning phase of building a new wood fishing boat, I really like the Lobster style boats and have ordered a set of study plans for a glen L design in the 24' range. The lobster boats have a " semi-displacement" hull not a planing hull and I do not know much about them. I mostly fish in the Puget Sound so no swells but occasionally run 20 miles out off shore fishing Halibut, and have a bar crossing also. I have read that these hulls do not do well in a following sea is this a poor choice for the pacific northwest? I really want to build a strip plank boat and love the looks of these. any experience with these hull styles?
    Thank you

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    I have lots of experience with the type, but must admit that I am somewhat of a zealot about them. It's a regional affliction, I suppose. What Glen-L design are you considering?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Check out Sam Devlin's plans.....
    1955 Fontana 18' - 1958 Atomic 4
    1960 Skippy 12C FeatherCraft - 1947 Mercury KD4 Rocket
    1985 Glen L15 - 1980 Johnson 7.5 hp
    2016 kayak Mill Creek 13

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    I have lots of experience with the type, but must admit that I am somewhat of a zealot about them. It's a regional affliction, I suppose. What Glen-L design are you considering?
    the 22' eagle stretched to 24'+- is what I am looking at.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Unfortunately there is not much info to go on to evaluate the hull, Farmboy. I would like to see what the underbody of the boat looks like. I understand why Glen-L doesn't publish images of the lines plan on-line, but some photos would be nice. Oh, well...

    There are three distinct types of lobsterboat hulls prevalent on the north-east corner of the continent - the Downeast type (Maine and northern Massachusetts), the Cape Islander (Nova Scotia & southern New Brunswick), and the Northumberland Strait boat (Prince Edward Island and northern New Brunswick). Downeasters are generally the fastest of the bunch, Cape Islanders are better suited for more exposed waters, and the Strait boat shines in short, steep chop. All rely on a long, deep keel for directional stability. Recently, all of the types have grown larger and more square-sterned in the commercial boats, and this has had some consequences in their seaworthiness (most of the deterioration in seaworthiness has been countered by larger size and more horsepower), but this isn't particularly relevant to your situation. However, the square-stern part is germane: As the maximum beam is carried further (or all the way) aft and the transoms have grown wider, the boat loses some of its ability to manoeuver well in a following sea. Earlier types had narrower transoms, and did quite well.

    IMHO, there has been a development in the past ten or fifteen years that has made smaller lobsterboat hulls - those in the range you are considering - worrisome. As folks trend to fitting these traditional hull forms with outboard motors (often of significantly more horsepower that the hull was originally developed with), transoms have become wider to provide buoyancy for the heavy motor hung on the transom, and the skeg has been truncated or eliminated almost entirely. The placement of the motor at the stern changes the weight balance of the boat, which changes how it steers. The wider transom provides more surface for a following sea to push the stern around, which can be a concern. The reduced or eliminated skeg diminishes the tracking ability of the hull, rendering it more susceptible to broaching, especially in a following sea or when pushed to a too-fast speed by a too powerful motor.

    While the above paragraph makes it seem like I am against outboards on lobsterboats, that is not the case. I am just an advocate of doing it right so that the wonderful characteristics of these types of boats are not lost in the conversion. Transoms should be significantly narrower than the hull's maximum beam. The hulls should not be overpowered. Most importantly, the skeg should be kept as long and deep as possible without being detrimental to propulsion efficiency. However, I would be lying if I didn't admit to thinking that the hulls really are better with traditional inboard shaft-and-prop power.

    I have this conversation with potential boat owners quite often, people who want to know what the advantage of a lobsterboat hull is over other types. I tell them that they will have more deck area to fish from than most other types, but less accommodations. They won't be able to go as fast as vee-bottom boats, but when those vee-bottom owners are packing it in and heading for shore when the wind and waves get up a bit, lobsterboat owners will smile and wave at them as they continue to fish. And when it gets truly nasty out there and you left it too late to head home, you can just point a lobsterboat into the wind and jog and the boat will ride like a gull on the waves, where the vee-bottom crowd will be getting pounded around and tossed from side to side by each wave.

    This is a 27-ft hull I designed a few years ago, based on a compilation of three 1940's - 1950's traditional Cape Islanders, and designed for strip-cold-molded construction:

    port profile at 5 kts.jpg

    200513-02011.1 jpeg.jpg

    200513-0201.jpg

    interior framing aft.jpg
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    mmd, I always liked that design of yours. I ended up going with an Alvin Beal/Doug Hylan design. But I really appreciate yours - especially the version with no shelter. It just looks "right".

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    heres a link to a lil line sawing of the eagle. hidden in the "notes" section for some reason

    http://www.glen-l.com/designs/workboat/eagle-notes.html

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Thanks for that, telenorth. The bilges seem a bit slack, and I am not so fond of the width of the transom, but otherwise a nice hull. The flare in the forward three stations is a bit more than I normally see, but that shouldn't have much bearing on its performance, and may keep the boat a bit drier in a chop. The Glen-L boat probably is a bit more tender than mine, but not enough to be worrisome.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    MMD,
    I wonder what you think about the preformance of powerboats with outboards in wells on the centerline as opposed to hung on the transom. Like you see with the Oregon Surf Dorys and some other designs. Is this a good option for the type of boat discussed here? Disregarding the issue of space they take.

    0B2D7BC1-25E7-4B98-AE1F-DFDC9CF27086.jpeg
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    MMD, Thank you for all the information. Yes I would be powering the boat with a traditional inboard and skeg, I do not want another boat with an outboard. i really like the boat above with the cabin it is just a little to long for me, is it possible to reduce the length of that to 24'?

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Matt, I see very little downside to outboards in wells (there is a noticeable increase in drag on the hull, but normally the owners of boats that want/need a motorwell aren't all that excited about achieving the best top speed possible, and there is a loss of interior hull space), and there are some upsides (motor protection, security). I have been considering designing a hybrid Cape Island hull with a motor well.

    Farmboy, yes, I have considered drawing a 24' version of the boat I posted above. There have been a couple of enquiries over the past few years for a smaller version, but at the time I was too busy with other tasks to consider it. I have some free time in front of me now, so it may be moved to the front burner. Most of the requests have been for a smaller outboard version, which I am a bit ambivalent about. (If I did do an outboard version, I would probably mount the engine on a transom extension and not on the transom proper - I rather like the curved transom on the hull.)

    The issue for all spec designs, of course, is that if not a fully-paid custom commission, will there be enough sales of the design to pay for my time invested? How many people would like to buy a set of plans from me for a 24-foot Cape Island boat built in strip-cold-mold with options for cuddy and wheelhouse? I think that it would be a great boat, but I realize that it is a regional type and may not be to a great number of people's tastes. Also, for the home builder, strip cold mold is a significant amount of extra work than a similar-size plywood hard-chine hull, and that is a big consideration for many folks. Who knows? Maybe this conversation will result in some more encouragement for me to proceed with the project.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Here is a link to the hard chine version of the boat I am thinking of building, I do not want to build another plywood boat, but I want the right boat for the Northwest, any thoughts on which would be better? both would be inboards.
    http://www.glen-l.com/designs/workboat/dsn-dbllc.html

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    The hard-chine boat would be faster, but I think that it would not be as comfortable in a seaway as a round-bilge lobsterboat type, especially at trolling speeds. But that is just my opinion, and others will probably disagree. As in most cases, it boils down to what the owner wants; in this case, ease of building plus better speed vs. better seaworthiness and better motion in waves. Plus, being without a skeg, the hard-chine boat will not track as well and might - might - be more prone to broaching in a following sea.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    "the 22' eagle stretched to 24'+- is what I am looking at." Farmboy, your post # 4.

    That is exactly what I did 15 years ago. The boat is now in its 12th year, it took me 3 years to build, and remains entirely satisfactory. Strip built using local cedar, epoxy coated, marine ply upperworks, lots of (expensive) marine triple laminated windows..

    Among the design changes made, I removed the flare in the bow (I prefer a more conventional convex shape) and so gained buoyancy there. Added 750 pounds of internal ballast, and gave up speed for a much more comfortable motion in seas (we are experienced sailors now in our 80's, and don't need speed any more). Modified the flat run aft by raising the transom about two inches, as appropriate for a displacement speed style of boating. Put in a couple of solar panels, a composting head, and lots of "comfort" features in the house.

    The motor is a 50 hp Yamaha high thrust, which after several thousand miles cruising (about 1000 a year) remains most satisfactory. The end result is a seaworthy pocket trawler, which suits us and our local water, the Saint John river system and the inner Bay of Fundy, which can get pretty rough at times.

    Regards, Tony.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Awww, c'mon, Tony; don't be such a tease... got any pictures?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Yes, lots of course, but since I don't belong to any third party hosting organization, I have no way to link to them. THere are a couple of pics in the current issue of Saltscapes magazine, in an article by Bob Bancroft. We did an eventful Bay of Fundy cruise together a couple of years ago.

    Regards, Tony.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Not trying to badger, but only to inform here, Tony, but third-party hosting is no longer necessary. You can upload pics from your computer directly to WoodenBoat and insert them in a thread.

    I think that my wife gets Saltscapes, I'll look for Mr. Bancroft's article.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Take the pic and upload it to your computer.

    Click on the square "insert image" icon at the top of the reply box.

    Select "From Computer".

    Now click on "Select Files".

    That will give you a box where you can find your photos that are on your computer.

    Click on the photo you want to post. The name of the photo will appear in the box.

    Click on "Upload File(s)" and wait until it is uploaded.

    Click on "Post Quick Reply". The photo won't actually show full size until you post the reply.

    Save these instructions for further use. Once you've done it a few of times it becomes intuitive.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Sorry Gib, no "insert image" icon visible. Any suggestions?

    Tony.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    For me it's the 4th one from the right Tony, a square with a little tree in it.

    Someone here will be able to help you.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Sorry, nothing! No Icons at all. Windows 7 THE PROBLEM ???

    Tony.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Just a wild guess, and I have no idea how to make any changes, but do you see this at the bottom of your page?

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    I'm using 7 and it works.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Perhaps it will work for you if you use Chrome. The insert image icon is 3rd from the right there.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Which of the forum edit options have you chosen?
    Found under "Forum Actions" "General Settings"

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/profile.php?do=editoptions

    The standard editor, or enhanced editor each give Image Insert options - the "Basic Editor" does not - If you're using Tapatalk - you're on your own.
    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 05-19-2018 at 12:11 PM.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    P.I, that did it - I was using the standard (very basic) editor, and having set the advanced one, I can now see the full range of icons. Just having a cup of tea while some two part epoxy paint goes through the induction process, so cannot play around right now. Will try posting photos later this evening. Thanks, all, for your patience.

    Tony.

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Here is a sample photo, which gives a reasonable impression of the boat.

    Saint John River Trip 2012 119.jpg

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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Thank you for that, I really do not want a hard chine planing hull/plywood boat.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Farmboy, This pic of the hull as she originally came out of my garage may be helpful. The raw shape is simply the Glen-L design stretched at the run (I added the extra two feet by adding a few inches between the last few positions). I also re-shaped the bow, as mentioned earlier.

    I made several typical amateur house design mistakes. If I was doing the build again, I would reduce the house height by six inches, toe it in at the top by the same (six inches) so the sides lean in more, and increase the camber (the curve of the roof) somewhat. This set of minor mods would make the whole boat less "boxy" than it now is. It is functionally just fine, but looks matter.

    Regards, Tony.The hull sees the light.jpg
    Last edited by Tonyr; 05-20-2018 at 06:55 AM.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Thanks for those pics, Tony. Sorry the it was such an ordeal to get them posted. P.I, Gib, thanks for helping.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: "Semi-displacement" hull for the PNW?

    Farmboy, this sort of East Coast hull makes a pretty good seaboat, especially for conditions which result in a short and steep chop (that's because of the relatively fine, immersed, bow). Here is a pic of us in the Bay of Fundy when things got a bit sloppy, when the windSaint John River Trip 2012 602.jpg got up and led to confused seas caused by swell bouncing off steep cliffs at an angle, then interacting with the prevailing wave direction. We were happy to run for the nearest harbour. I have had no problems with downwind control, to which you refer in your post # 1.

    Tony.

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