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Thread: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

  1. #1
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    Default Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Hakvoort's new 38m motoryacht:

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Fine if you like 'em. Tend to remind me of '47 Studebakers. Transoms rule!
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Not in a following sea, Tom. Just sayin'...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    there is a certain elegance in a fantail that a transom just cannot replicate.
    "'I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization."

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    I just love double enders - fantails included.
    Will

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    I really like the tug.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Not in a following sea, Tom. Just sayin'...
    Perhaps some discussion with serious long distance open sea voyagers might affect your position. Very few will agree with those who think they favor double ender but have not actually had much experience out there. I know several circumnavigators who can attest to the fallacy in the ability of the double ender performance at sea. Those who enjoy getting pooped by a low stern buoyancy double ender downwind may have other thoughts.

    Try to find a single double ender in the various, and recent, round the world racers.

    Most offshore sailboats do tend to have a reasonably double ended shape under the water but they also tend to have a high volume transom shape above the water. Good, logical reasons for this.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Nosce te ipsum

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post

    Most offshore sailboats do tend to have a reasonably double ended shape under the water but they also tend to have a high volume transom shape above the water. Good, logical reasons for this.
    today, yes. Boat and yacht design also favours a wide stern at the moment. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. When I go sailing, I am not in it to get anywhere fast. If I wanted to go fast, I would pop the chute, but I have never done so. Once upon a time, the double ended boat was the mainstay of the Norwegian Rescue fleets, for the reason that they COULD take a breaking wave over the stern without losing control as the boat tried to yaw with the rapid increase in speed from the waves smashing into a flat stern. The Double ended shape is also stronger in the stern as there are no flat surfaces for waves to break against or for objects to smash into.
    "'I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization."

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Ummm. correct me if I am wrong, but the boat in the OP is not a sailboat...

    .. and I have about 50,000 miles of blue-water sea experience - on motorships.
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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    So what are your thoughts on double ended life boats Michael?

    I'm asking because I recently stumbled onto some websites for ship salvagers in various parts of Asia that are offering un-used Solas approved fiber glass life boats of all shapes and sizes for dirt cheap.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Ummm. correct me if I am wrong, but the boat in the OP is not a sailboat...

    .. and I have about 50,000 miles of blue-water sea experience - on motorships.
    Michael, This should not be a pissing contest about who has the most sea miles. However, to start, I have 2 1/2 years on a destroyer in active sea service, so perhaps several hundred thousand miles there. The rest is mostly in transom sterned sailboats within a couple hundred miles of the east coast. I think you must agree that the lions share of discussion about stern shape in offshore boats relates to sailboats. I do trust the conclusions of four single handed circumnavigators (one in a fero double ender) and others who have made substantial voyages. Incidentally, the one most vocal in favor of transom sterns is the one who sailed the double ender.

    Frankly, I don't consider my opinion, or yours for that matter, to be of the same veracity as those relative experts mentioned above. This is not a knock on your knowledge but just a realistic appraisal of those of us who inhabit this medium. Perhaps surviving a pooping event in an Ingred or Tahiti is good thing but perhaps its best not to get pooped in the first place and that is the point of the higher volume stern.

    I'm well aware of the popularity of double ended hulls but, as an engineer, function has an effect on my view of aesthetics. Personal experience in smaller sailboats is all in favor of the handling characteristics of transom sterns over double enders in inshore waters.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Lifeboats are fine as long as you don't want to go anywhere. They are designed to carry a lot of weight, and to stay relatively in place and afloat until someone comes to get them. When lightly loaded they bob like a cork (can you say 'vomit comet'?) and they power - either by motor or sail - about as good as a bathtub, which they sort of resemble underwater. I had charge of a lifeboat converted to a sailboat as a part of a house rental from a guy with an overseas contract - at full wail in a stiff breeze, it managed about 3-1/2 knots. Eight-year-olds in Optimist prams could sail circles around it. As a life-saving vehicle I think that they are wonderful, as a pleasure boat of any form, not so much.
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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Tom, I agree with you regarding sailboats (but not so much the wide, open, sterns of the Vendee Globe class), but a hundred-plus-foot fantail-stern motoryacht such as the one in the OP has sufficient reserve buoyancy to withstand pretty much any stern sea that it is likely to experience in normal voyaging. Comparing apples to apples has its advantages. I have experienced total loss of directional control - repeatedly - in a transom-sterned 50-ft sportfisherman in following seas as the overtaking wave caught and semi-submerged the transom and just carried it to wherever it wanted to. That was off the coast of New Jersey, BTW. I never felt that sensation on the fantail-sterned small freighter that I sailed on for two years through two oceans, dozens of storms and a hurricane. IMHO, it is more likely that a transom-sterned small-ish motorboat will experience loss of directional control many more times due to following seas than a canoe-sterned sailboat will be pooped by one.

    But, each person to his own opinion, eh?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Whew, for a minute there I thought you were going to show one of those square lobster boats with a fantail

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    I'm thinking what works on a North Sea fisherman, is going to different from what works on a round the world racing sled, is going to be different from what works on a sail and oar boat is going to be different from what works on a 300 metre freighter is going to be different from what works on analysts 80 metre motor yacht and none of that has anything to learn from what works on a destroyer.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Lifeboats are fine as long as you don't want to go anywhere. They are designed to carry a lot of weight, and to stay relatively in place and afloat until someone comes to get them. When lightly loaded they bob like a cork (can you say 'vomit comet'?) and they power - either by motor or sail - about as good as a bathtub, which they sort of resemble underwater. I had charge of a lifeboat converted to a sailboat as a part of a house rental from a guy with an overseas contract - at full wail in a stiff breeze, it managed about 3-1/2 knots. Eight-year-olds in Optimist prams could sail circles around it. As a life-saving vehicle I think that they are wonderful, as a pleasure boat of any form, not so much.
    Agree completely with all of this. Spend many wet trips on the two lifeboats of my destroyer. We also used one as a committee boat for races locally for several years. Miserable thing that could dangerously react to passing boats unless we had the flopper stoppers rigged. Even so, I was unable to talk a local out of trying to make a power cruiser our of one.

    Don't care for open transoms on anything larger than a small racer for many reasons. The current crop of maxi round the world racers seem out of touch with any practical offshore use of a boat. About as practical as an F1 car on the usual roadway.

    Strangely enough, the NC offshore fishermen have a bit of rocker under the stern which may seem counterproductive to running in big waves in the Gulf Stream. The explanation is that they use the rocker to lift the bow high to avoid digging into the waves ahead and run fast bringing their paying customers (time = money) in from the Stream when weather threatens. Humongous diesels put out plenty of power to do that safely and they are skilled at it as well. One reason I like outboards is that they give plenty of steering thrust to avoid problems of broaching in following waves at inlets or elsewhere.

    My original opinion was based on personal aesthetics and others brought up the pooping bit.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    One reason I like outboards is that they give plenty of steering thrust to avoid problems of broaching in following waves at inlets or elsewhere.
    Thrust and steering ? You mean those props that's limited in size and zero rudder by comparison to those inboard single screws that also uses duel rudders to steer? [Please pass the bucket of popcorn]

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    I'm rather fond of fantails myself...

    IMG_3646.jpg
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    That boat that borned you Rich, I bet it was a fantail, yes?

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    Thrust and steering ? You mean those props that's limited in size and zero rudder by comparison to those inboard single screws that also uses duel rudders to steer? [Please pass the bucket of popcorn]
    That is a most puzzling remark Mike. I'm sure you know that the steering thrust from an outboard is 100% in whatever direction the propshaft is in. Size of the skeg (rudder) is almost irrelevant compared to the prop thrust. That very effective steering thrust is compared to way less than 100% that is available from an inboard screw.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    As someone without marine credentials but who has read a lot on boat design:

    First, the round the world racers have a beamy stern to plane downwind, but then they heel over on the chine in other points of sail which vastly reduces wetted area. They are designed for speed, always assuming that downwind they are faster than the waves.

    Second, I think it depends on ratios of stern width to length. Bob Perry, who championed canoe and double-ender sterns on his early designs for seaworthiness in following seas, favors transoms on all his designs of the past couple of decades. Keep in mind that even in the older designs, he went with a long chord fin keel rather than full keel, this still gave plenty of directional stability but enough improvement in sailing to weather for the designs to be referred to as "sport-cruisers", plus they steered a lot better going backwards for docking. As hull lengths exceeded 50' but beams not proportionately larger, square sterns had less effect on directional stability while offering improved utility in terms of space, dual helms, etc. Keep in mind that (IIRC) stability increases proportional to the 4th power of length, however I think that refers to heeling and not directional stability, I can't recall.

    Lastly, I love the looks of a slender stern double-ender, but it costs in moorage length, and is kind of a waste of style with stern davits and a dinghy, assuming you even have the width for mounting. And while I like wind-vane steering that has the option of that rudder being used as an auxiliary backup rudder, I sure wish someone would design a wind vane that did not hang brackets off the stern and integrates well with primary steering, as those brackets so ruin the looks of an elegant double-ender. It's enough for someone to instead use an autopilot! *eesh*

    Edit: "Ya want utility or ya want elegance?!" - My inner crusty boat designer

    Edit: And now, a relevant movie quote. "You know those guys in the fantail launch? Well, none of them will get out of the harbor alive."
    Last edited by Bob (oh, THAT Bob); 05-16-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    That is a most puzzling remark Mike. I'm sure you know that the steering thrust from an outboard is 100% in whatever direction the propshaft is in. Size of the skeg (rudder) is almost irrelevant compared to the prop thrust. That very effective steering thrust is compared to way less than 100% that is available from an inboard screw.
    Oh I am not confused about thrust. If you wish to talk about raw thrust, then yes you do have a quicker response than the inboard. But in many cases you do not have full control of your boat in the wrong conditions with the really restricted and limited propulsion size for almost all substantial hulls powered by outboards, which was being discussed in the bigger hulls. The shallow drive train that's common with the outboards just highlights further some of the issues associated with steering especially in cross winds. . Your boat can do a ton of steering then on its own.
    Last edited by erster; 05-16-2018 at 09:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    The explanation is that they use the rocker to lift the bow high to avoid digging into the waves ahead and run fast bringing their paying customers (time = money) in from the Stream when weather threatens
    I will add that part of the problem with the bow possibly digging in on the down sea run was that the boats were mainly designed for head sea running in somewhat comfort.. The chines were pinched in much further aft with the vee bottoms, which caused the boats to loose a lot of buoyancy. When the charter boats and builders began to build for pleasure and installed twin engines, the digging was a problem because of the added speed that they were achieving in a similar design. Some of this was eliminated when the boats became yachts and the needs for added accomadations forward with added beam at the water line of course, which caused a complete makeover in the basic Carolina designed boats. When Buddy Davis built his production 47 in glass, he experienced some serious downsea running issues, even in his glass yachts. Then he actually redesigned the boat and stretched the boat later on to 52 foot . Then the market collapsed for a couple of economic reasons. And that was the end to that one.
    Last edited by erster; 05-16-2018 at 10:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Ready for anything

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Nice to see that fantails are coming back in fashion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    And while I like wind-vane steering that has the option of that rudder being used as an auxiliary backup rudder, I sure wish someone would design a wind vane that did not hang brackets off the stern and integrates well with primary steering, as those brackets so ruin the looks of an elegant double-ender. It's enough for someone to instead use an autopilot! *eesh*.
    I do agree with you. 90% of all wind vane steering systems are hideous. This is the best one I have seen.. and of course it has it's origins with the Pardeys.
    http://boatbits.blogspot.com/2009/10...he-pardey.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    Edit: And now, a relevant movie quote. "You know those guys in the fantail launch? Well, none of them will get out of the harbor alive."
    Great movie, full of excellent quotes
    "'I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization."

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    Default

    Fantail vaporetti, seen in Venice today.



    Kevin


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