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Thread: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Here is an early photo from the Victoria area, 1868 with different styles of canoes , hopefully u can magnify it

    canoe 1868 victoria.jpg

    this is from the 1910's in the Chemanius area canoe 1912-ish.jpg
    If growth is good then how much is enough

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    The stern overhang looks like a poling platform to me. Could this be a possibility?

    Many thanks to the OP for stating this thread!

    Ralphie

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Quote Originally Posted by peter osberg View Post
    It could be that the overhangs were functional when going into steep breaking waves; but also (perhaps more likely) the retention of a substantial forefoot and bow stern overhangs minimized the splitting of the ends risk, when the hollowed out logs were spread (with steam/heat). I have come across partially finished canoes that were abandoned after splitting the ends back in the forest (covered in moss but still quite recognizable); and I have read that this was the stage (the spreading of the sides and insertion of thwarts) most care and ceremony was devoted to.
    That's very interesting. Thanks.
    I rather be an American than a Republican.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    That forward overhang would be a great place to work a harpoon.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Quote Originally Posted by Three Cedars View Post
    Here is an early photo from the Victoria area, 1868 with different styles of canoes , hopefully u can magnify it

    canoe 1868 victoria.jpg

    this is from the 1910's in the Chemanius area canoe 1912-ish.jpg
    This pic shows a similarity to a Tahitian va'a, with the sharp forefoot and bow protrusion.
    Lines at the stern end are trending toward the va'a, and could develop into the Tahitian form with the addition of a totem pole( as in the Tipaerua).
    This bow protrusion does have a hydrodynamic function, unlike that of the Tahitian va'a. So it Ould point to an influencing factor in development.

    Canoes of the Pacific northeast must have origins predating that of the Island craft, and logs from northwest America are known to have drifted to Polynsia.... could a drifting first nation canoe have introduced features that later became Polynesian?

    Sure, the scholars like to think that Lapita potters are the originators of east Pacific canoes, but there are those who think that Polynesian canoes, like the people, attained their features within Polynesia.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-07-2018 at 06:06 AM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Nice view of bow showing the entry canoe bow.jpg

    a canoe being rowed with two rowing stations canoe row.jpg

    and one more of August Jack rowing a canoe in Vancouver area canoe rowing.jpg
    If growth is good then how much is enough

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    The water entry of the 6 fathom canoe from adney and chapelles book, looks very similiar (almost generic), excepting the truncated bow overhang (an issue when cartopping the canoes on a suburban!)
    launch.jpg

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Thank you Three Cedars for the photos. I have put together a pretty good portfolio of old photos and museum artifacts, but these are new to me, perfectly helpful and appropriate. What archive did they come from?

    Peter,
    Regarding the sacrilege of placing an outboard motor on a canoe, and one based on traditional design to boot: Joseph Conrad said it better than your critics, "The horror!"

    I must confess two things that might raise a similar small-minded cry from the purists about my own project.

    First, regarding the canoe I am planning to build. It will be a wood-strip version, not a dugout. I think I can create an accurate artifact reproduction by carving the bow/stem piece and much, if not all of the gunwale. This will require taking lines/offsets which will make the design available and reproducible for anyone who might be daunted at the prospect of shopping for a 25' x 3' cedar log and having it delivered to their front yard.

    Second, I have mounted a rudder on the conventional solo canoe that I use to paddle the Salish. Purists be damned, this has made the experience 100% safer, more functional, and just plain fun. I use it when I need it in tough conditions, or want a workout. How sweet and fast it is to hit 15-20 strokes before switching!

    To all who chipped in about the prow and stern design:

    Thanks for stimulating and helping to consolidate my musing on these. Here's what I have come up with. Note that I am no boat designer (though I think I may be becoming a historian). I welcome gladly any critique or contrary opinion.

    RE: The bow notch(not the split-prow) would seem to be perfect for storing, or perhaps supporting an aimed harpoon. I have no verification of that use - yet. Will keep a look out.

    RE: Bow Shape of the Coast Salish (and Northern) Style canoes with their sharp cutwater and flared extension: Does this allow it to “pierce” waves of up too, say 21 inches, and then rise up, with the added buoyancy of the flared hull and extended prow, and over larger waves pushing the water aside when the going gets rough.. This would presumably provide a smoother, speedier ride in the chop, with defenses against swamping when the waves get deep? One can/should expect to find 18” chop, rarely much swell, any day on the Salish Sea. I am hesitant to go out into anything bigger than 2 foot wind blown chop in my 16’ x 30” solo open canoe, because a. I think that pushes the edge of my safety envelope, and b. I believe that waves much larger will be breaking over my bow, though I have not yet pushed this boat to the edge (the Salish water temp rises to 57 in the summer time, and I am not a drysuit guy.)

    RE: Stern Shape of the Coast Salish (and Northern) Style canoes, also flared and extended. With smooth, tapering flow at the waterline exit for speed, (I don’t know the nautical terminology for this). I think. I am assuming that this offers similar protection in big water, from large waves breaking over the stern when paddling downwind, and the breaking waves roll under the canoe from behind as its bow is raised by the front of the trough. Beyond that I have no guesses about the stern extension except to observe that aesthetically it emulates the bow and nicely rounds out the form.

    Always questions, though: Northern Style and Haida canoes often use a “fin” for a cutwater. Basically a flat triangle carved or set into the bow at the water entry. See photos below. Tough from photos to see the distinction. Would this be a more primitive version of the sharp, flared cutwater we see in VII-G-352? Or serve a somewhat different need?

    Paddle to Puyallup Canoes 001.jpgMOV #AA 1025 Model Salish canoe prominent cutwater.jpg

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    In an earlier period the 'Salish sea' was restricted to the area on charts called Stuart channel, but the name is now (often) used now to refer to Georgia strait and all other southern gulf waters; any way, the water temp in front of our place is 75-76 F now, although winds can stir things up and the temp drops to high 60s (we often swim with a pool thermometer) at least until later in August. Past summers it has been as high a 80F but that was a few years ago. Great for daily distance swimming.
    Your wave height restriction (for your design) may mean a limited opportunity, for exploring. A good source (for some local knowledge of tides/conditions etc.) is "Oceanography of the BC Coast" by Richard E Thomson

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Quote Originally Posted by peter osberg View Post
    In an earlier period the 'Salish sea' was restricted to the area on charts called Stuart channel, but the name is now (often) used now to refer to Georgia strait and all other southern gulf waters; any way, the water temp in front of our place is 75-76 F now, although winds can stir things up and the temp drops to high 60s (we often swim with a pool thermometer) at least until later in August. Past summers it has been as high a 80F but that was a few years ago. Great for daily distance swimming.
    Your wave height restriction (for your design) may mean a limited opportunity, for exploring. A good source (for some local knowledge of tides/conditions etc.) is "Oceanography of the BC Coast" by Richard E Thomson
    That happened fast. The first known use of the term "Salish Sea" was in 1988, and it wasn't until 2009 the name was officially applied. One of my customers was on the commission for naming the area.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Bennett View Post
    Thank you Three Cedars for the photos. I have put together a pretty good portfolio of old photos and museum artifacts, but these are new to me, perfectly helpful and appropriate. What archive did they come from?

    Peter,
    Regarding the sacrilege of placing an outboard motor on a canoe, and one based on traditional design to boot: Joseph Conrad said it better than your critics, "The horror!"

    I must confess two things that might raise a similar small-minded cry from the purists about my own project.

    First, regarding the canoe I am planning to build. It will be a wood-strip version, not a dugout. I think I can create an accurate artifact reproduction by carving the bow/stem piece and much, if not all of the gunwale. This will require taking lines/offsets which will make the design available and reproducible for anyone who might be daunted at the prospect of shopping for a 25' x 3' cedar log and having it delivered to their front yard.

    Second, I have mounted a rudder on the conventional solo canoe that I use to paddle the Salish. Purists be damned, this has made the experience 100% safer, more functional, and just plain fun. I use it when I need it in tough conditions, or want a workout. How sweet and fast it is to hit 15-20 strokes before switching!

    To all who chipped in about the prow and stern design:

    Thanks for stimulating and helping to consolidate my musing on these. Here's what I have come up with. Note that I am no boat designer (though I think I may be becoming a historian). I welcome gladly any critique or contrary opinion.

    RE: The bow notch(not the split-prow) would seem to be perfect for storing, or perhaps supporting an aimed harpoon. I have no verification of that use - yet. Will keep a look out.

    RE: Bow Shape of the Coast Salish (and Northern) Style canoes with their sharp cutwater and flared extension: Does this allow it to “pierce” waves of up too, say 21 inches, and then rise up, with the added buoyancy of the flared hull and extended prow, and over larger waves pushing the water aside when the going gets rough.. This would presumably provide a smoother, speedier ride in the chop, with defenses against swamping when the waves get deep? One can/should expect to find 18” chop, rarely much swell, any day on the Salish Sea. I am hesitant to go out into anything bigger than 2 foot wind blown chop in my 16’ x 30” solo open canoe, because a. I think that pushes the edge of my safety envelope, and b. I believe that waves much larger will be breaking over my bow, though I have not yet pushed this boat to the edge (the Salish water temp rises to 57 in the summer time, and I am not a drysuit guy.)

    RE: Stern Shape of the Coast Salish (and Northern) Style canoes, also flared and extended. With smooth, tapering flow at the waterline exit for speed, (I don’t know the nautical terminology for this). I think. I am assuming that this offers similar protection in big water, from large waves breaking over the stern when paddling downwind, and the breaking waves roll under the canoe from behind as its bow is raised by the front of the trough. Beyond that I have no guesses about the stern extension except to observe that aesthetically it emulates the bow and nicely rounds out the form.

    Always questions, though: Northern Style and Haida canoes often use a “fin” for a cutwater. Basically a flat triangle carved or set into the bow at the water entry. See photos below. Tough from photos to see the distinction. Would this be a more primitive version of the sharp, flared cutwater we see in VII-G-352? Or serve a somewhat different need?

    Paddle to Puyallup Canoes 001.jpgMOV #AA 1025 Model Salish canoe prominent cutwater.jpg

    A beautiful synthesis of form and function in the fore end, where the entry 'fin' melds into the flared extension above.
    This flare will supply hydrodynamic lift, while the cutwater will help the tracking to be true.
    Also ( as has been mentioned in this thread), the bulk of wood at the nose helps to prevent splitting when the shape is spread, so same applies at the other end.

    My curiosity about the groove in the flared extension is satisfied with the suggestion that it serves to take a harpoon.

    Steering a canoe with lateral grip at the nose (provided by the triangular 'fin' area) requires a stroke to pull the stern around..... hence the advantage of a rudder when solo paddling..
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-11-2018 at 05:21 AM.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    You may want to check out WB#213. ( 11/12 2013 )

    Those flared ends were probably to keep her boyant. These open canoes were known to cross the Pacific all the way to Japan. Also to Hawaii, according to my Doctor who's mother is a Haida Gwaii native. His father is a dutchman.
    7,000 miles across the Pacific in an open boat sounds scary.
    MYy doctor says they've found Haida Gwaii DNA in Japan and Hawaii.

    Footnote. Haida G WAII & Ha WAII both end in the same four letters. I wonder if there is a connection there?
    basil

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    On "Footnote"....I don't think so Remember that the spelling is a modern English interpretation of previously unwritten languages. "Hawaii" used to be called "Owyhee" among other things. I guess you could definitely say there is a connection...but it's based on the perception of outsiders to both cultures.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Canoe designs of the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest

    Quote Originally Posted by goodbasil View Post
    You may want to check out WB#213. ( 11/12 2013 )

    Those flared ends were probably to keep her boyant. These open canoes were known to cross the Pacific all the way to Japan. Also to Hawaii, according to my Doctor who's mother is a Haida Gwaii native. His father is a dutchman.
    7,000 miles across the Pacific in an open boat sounds scary.
    MYy doctor says they've found Haida Gwaii DNA in Japan and Hawaii.

    Footnote. Haida G WAII & Ha WAII both end in the same four letters. I wonder if there is a connection there?
    This migration idea has popped up repeatedly....Thor heyerdahl was onto it and it seems the academic world thought they had buried it when his raft voyaging from America was debunked.
    Back then the idea of ice age migration through the 'ice free corridor was still most favoured dogma.
    Now we are more sure of the great coastal migration out of Africa, and the Northeast Pacific coast is part of this route around the rim.
    Canoes have and do definitely cross from east to west, with Japan being a relevant place in the scheme of things.

    As well, there is a theory on Hawaiian origins back to/ from Haida Gwai as can be seen reading the 'Polynesian Pathways' page.

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