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Thread: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

  1. #1
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    Default Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Since my health is currently keeping me from building a big boat, I am seriously considering taking on a smaller more manageable build. My main choice is the GIS. Mr. Storer says on his page that the GIS is built from 1/4-inch or 6mm preferably Okoume (AKA gaboon) ply. I have three issues here.

    1) Okoume is stated to be 5.2mm in thickness. Face veneer only is Okoume with Chinese popular core. Also, it is available with moisture resistant glue or marine glue. Of course, I would choose marine glue, if available. How do you feel about these characteristics of this plywood? Is 5.2mm to thin? I'll be operating this boat with no motor and almost always single handed. I'd like to keep it light, but I also don't want to compromise strength as this will be a learning boat for sailing

    2) I can't get a price quote unless I am ready to put down the money and order on the spot. I understand this to a point, but is plywood pricing that volatile in the current market?

    3) The supplier doesn't keep it on hand and orders on an as-needed basis. Because of this, I am at the mercy of the supplier and shipper. Essentially, I place an order. They call and get pricing. I pay their pricing. Then I wait until it shows up, whenever that will be. Then accept whatever I get. There's no rejecting the order due to dinged edges or other problems. I believe this is because I will be needing a small order and they don't want to deal with it.

    Is there a domestic plywood that would be suitable and not overly heavy? I have seen mention of birch ply and luan door skins being used in some other boat builds. I have used door skins on framed canoes and kayaks before, but nothing quite like Storer's design with bulk heads and no real frames. At least not conventional frames. Also, the boats I built with door skins were a knock together one or two summer use type craft. I would like the GIS to be a bit longer lived.

    Thoughts and opinions greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    After cheaping out on some cut rate okoume for a couple of boats and then building a couple or three with Bruynzeel, a premium ply, I will never, ever use no-name ply again. The difference is night and day. The cheap stuff had cracks, de-laminations, voids, etc. Ply like Bruynzeel or Joubert have no defects. None. And thick face veneers, which is important when faced with sanding.

    Since the GIS is well known boat I would only use the best. If you ever sell the boat this will bring a premium. Chinese poplar core won't. Also, I would only use dimensions specified by the designer. The GIS looks to be a very fast boat that can be driven hard. Using lighter cheap materials sounds like an invitation for trouble.

    I'd check shipping rates with the various suppliers. Shipping charges for quality material will only be a small percentage of your costs.
    Last edited by Dusty Yevsky; 05-13-2018 at 10:35 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    I would choose marine glue, if available.
    water proof glue is an absolute must. 'moisture resistant' is not an option for a boat.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/customer-service/

    B&B Yacht design is in NC. They might sell you a few sheets off their stack. Let them do the work making sure it is quality ply. Agreed don’t cheap out on the cost or time involved in getting good stuff.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    After cheaping out on some cut rate okoume for a couple of boats and then building a couple or three with Bruynzeel, a premium ply, I will never, ever use no-name ply again. The difference is night and day. The cheap stuff had cracks, de-laminations, voids, etc. Ply like Bruynzeel or Joubert have no defects. None. And thick face veneers, which is important when faced with sanding.

    Since the GIS is well known boat I would only use the best. If you ever sell the boat this will bring a premium. Chinese poplar core won't. Also, I would only use dimensions specified by the designer. The GIS looks to be a very fast boat that can be driven hard. Using lighter cheap materials sounds like an invitation for trouble.

    I'd check shipping rates with the various suppliers. Shipping charges for quality material will only be a small percentage of your costs.
    The ply you mention I have never seen offered around here. The ply I would get is a name brand but they mostly supply sign makers and cabinet makers.

    I would rather have the 6mm to be honest over the 5.2mm.

    Shipping from the retailer to my home is not an issue. I can drive and pick it up in my truck within about a days drive. My issue is being charged shipping from wherever the supplier is to the retailer here in the US. I think that's what the place I called was speaking of. They don't deal with okoume in small orders. If they order it, it's usually a sea container full, I assume.


    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    water proof glue is an absolute must. 'moisture resistant' is not an option for a boat.
    Of course. I just found it odd that there's a choice between water resistant and water proof glues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/customer-service/

    B&B Yacht design is in NC. They might sell you a few sheets off their stack. Let them do the work making sure it is quality ply. Agreed donít cheap out on the cost or time involved in getting good stuff.
    That's actually a good idea if they use okoume ply.

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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Yes... pass on what you've been offered. You need a better supplier. I'm on the wrong coast to make recommendations - but they're out there.

    Occoume is, indeed, specified. Mik put a lot of skull-sweat into making this boat as light as possible, to maximize performance. If you don't have racing in mind - you might also consider meranti plywood. It's heavier, and stiffer. But it's stronger, cheaper, and less prone to rot. I've used meranti for the GIS, and other boats, and have no complaints of my own, or from customers.
    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    I would be SO much more inclined to use meranti.

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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    The GIS is on my build bucket list, which is why I'm following this thread. You should be able to find an online retailer who will ship directly to your door for a reasonable fee. If I'm not mistaken the GIS uses about 6 sheets of 1/4" ply. CLC in Annapolis, MD is a retailer of Joubert ply. They will ship 100 lbs of ply, which is about 4 1/2 sheets, for a flat rate of 123 bucks. A heavier load requires a quote so you'd need to call them. They also sell half sheets, which is very convenient. They will also do puzzle joints (ugh!) on individual sheets so you can skip scarfing if so inclined.
    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/produc...e-plywood.html


    As far as using heavier or cheaper materials goes, here's a quote from Mik Storer in another thread:

    "Howdy,

    The goat is really worth a premium build of good materials.

    It is fast and most people think it looks good. It is also extremely reliable.

    Heavier materials and rougher construction would be cheaper ... but not really the intention of the design.

    Get the Okoume/Gaboon ply, select nice timber and the boat will bring a lot of joy.

    If you want to go cheap then build something else."
    Last edited by Dusty Yevsky; 05-14-2018 at 11:15 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    The GIS is on my build bucket list, which is why I'm following this thread. You should be able to find an online retailer who will ship directly to your door for a reasonable fee. If I'm not mistaken the GIS uses about 6 sheets of 1/4" ply. CLC in Annapolis, MD is a retailer of Joubert ply. They will ship 100 lbs of ply for a flat rate of 100 bucks, which is about 4 1/2 sheets. A heavier load requires a quote so you'd need to call them. They also sell half sheets, which is very convenient.
    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/produc...e-plywood.html


    As far as using heavier or cheaper materials goes, here's a quote from Mik Storer in another thread:

    "Howdy,

    The goat is really worth a premium build of good materials.

    It is fast and most people think it looks good. It is also extremely reliable.

    Heavier materials and rougher construction would be cheaper ... but not really the intention of the design.

    Get the Okoume/Gaboon ply, select nice timber and the boat will bring a lot of joy.

    If you want to go cheap then build something else."
    '

    Yes, that is his intent. And I totally agree about not using crappy materials. He really wants to keep it light, and - as one of his approved builders, and as a friend - I understand and honor his intention. And, while using meranti plywood does compromise his efforts at creating a very, very lightweight hull... it is not a downgrade in any other way. Just the opposite in several ways. And, if you choose the standard boom, and a birdsmouth mast, you'll make up some of that weight... in an important way.

    When he mentions 'heavier materials and rougher construction' he's talking about something like fir plywood sheathed in fiberglass. OR... another common failure... trying to 'improve' things by 'beefing them up'. And suchlike.
    Last edited by David G; 05-14-2018 at 11:56 PM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    I asked this exact same question on the Goat Island Skiff forum and a bunch of builders responded, including Michael Storer and they all said to definitely stick to Okuome, most other plywoods will make the boat much heavier.

    I found suppliers in both Canada and the US. The supplier I found in the US was "Boulter Plywood" in Maine. The price was good and the guy that answered the phone seemed knowledgeable. They were able to ship to Canada and anywhere in the Us.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
    I asked this exact same question on the Goat Island Skiff forum and a bunch of builders responded, including Michael Storer and they all said to definitely stick to Okuome, most other plywoods will make the boat much heavier.

    I found suppliers in both Canada and the US. The supplier I found in the US was "Boulter Plywood" in Maine. The price was good and the guy that answered the phone seemed knowledgeable. They were able to ship to Canada and anywhere in the Us.
    Let's quantify the discussion. The weight differential between 6mm occoume and 6mm meranti is roughly 8-10 pounds. So, assuming you used every square inch of those 6 sheets, the overall weight penalty would be 48-60#. In reality, due to scraps left off - that's more like 40-45#. Not a number to be ignored. Esp. if you are set on maximizing potential speed/racing performance. And not a number that can be completely offset by such things as: not overbuilding as many builders do; building a birdsmouth mast, and maybe of spruce instead of douglas fir; etc.

    My own boating in the GIS involves racing but a small % of the time. More often, it's 'don't make me set my beer down' sailing. Or rowing - where the 'carry' from a heavier hull mostly offsets the extra weight to motivate. Or motoring, where the stoutness of meranti is a bit of insurance against a potential impact at speed. It also has involved raising two boys in the boat - which means it takes more of a beating than some other boats - again arguing for a slight shading toward 'stout'. YMMV.

    Another factor that comes in whenever I think about boat materials... is my own personal philosophy that water/entropy never sleeps. No matter what our good intentions or levels of diligence, I assume that somewhere, sometime, water will gain entry where it isn't wanted. Which also argues for a rot-resistant species.

    As far as the advice on the GIS group. I am an admin. there, and can tell you that most of that string was folks simply echoing what Mik advises. Most have only seen one GIS, and so have no basis for comparison. Don't get me wrong... Mik knows what he intended, and the best way to get there. And he's right. I'm simply saying the purity he's after is not ALWAYS the only route to boat-owning happiness. I am arguing NOT against occoume, but FOR a fully-informed choice.

    Also... a small clarification for those who may want to find Boulter. It is in the Boston, Mass. area, not Maine - unless they've opened a branch office I'm not aware of. I used them a lot during the 4 years I was in New England, and found both their quality and service to be top notch. But that was years ago.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    “Okoume (Gaboon) is an African hardwood. The mature trees are tall and straight and free of knots; they have large-diameter trunks. Okoume ranges in color from a brown to salmon pink, takes finishes well, and may be either painted or varnished. While Okoume is often the first choice when it comes to marine plywood because of its light weight, it is not particularly strong and is rated as nondurable. It must be thoroughly sealed, usually with epoxy resin, if it will be exposed to water.”

    quote from Boulter

    Or in other words and as David said. Do you want racing light or durable and rot resistant.
    Last edited by Matt young; 05-15-2018 at 04:07 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Thank you all for the guidance. I will stick with okoume. I have a spinal condition. I want to keep her light as possible. I am a beginner novice beginner. LOL I have been aboard some smaller sailboats (under 25') and pulled some lines. That's my sailing experience. I've played around with tarps on a stick canoe sails in my youth. While racing is probably not in my future. I have to admit, having a small fast sailer would be fun after gaining some experience.

    @David G, the GIS group you're on, is it the one on woodwork forum or is a hidden social group on this forum?


    http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169

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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben2go View Post
    Thank you all for the guidance. I will stick with okoume. I have a spinal condition. I want to keep her light as possible. I am a beginner novice beginner. LOL I have been aboard some smaller sailboats (under 25') and pulled some lines. That's my sailing experience. I've played around with tarps on a stick canoe sails in my youth. While racing is probably not in my future. I have to admit, having a small fast sailer would be fun after gaining some experience.

    @David G, the GIS group you're on, is it the one on woodwork forum or is a hidden social group on this forum?


    http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169
    Facebook - which is the most active venue these days. Though I have chimed in a bit over the years on the Aussie site.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Ben2go, suggest you look a little bit harder.

    What you require is Okoume BS1088 plywood approved by Lloyds Register.
    Type that into your friendly Google and you will find lots of suppliers. Here are three;
    https://www.marine-plywood.us/mahogany_okoume.htm
    https://www.clcboats.com/modules/cat...marine-plywood
    http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

    Notice something right away they are all in 6mm thickness.......nothing thinner.

    For an explanation of terms read this Wooden Boat page - https://www.woodenboat.com/marine-plywood
    Note; they say BS1088 is " BS 1088 is the coin of the realm, the sine qua non of plywood grades."


    The wood in the hull in your boat is the lowest cost item you have to purchase, per metre length of the boat.
    There is no point being a skinflint when it comes to making the purchase of the wood that keeps the water out!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    What you require is Okoume BS1088 plywood approved by Lloyds Register.
    Type that into your friendly Google and you will find lots of suppliers. Here are three;
    https://www.marine-plywood.us/mahogany_okoume.htm
    https://www.clcboats.com/modules/cat...marine-plywood
    http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

    Notice something right away they are all in 6mm thickness.......nothing thinner.

    For an explanation of terms read this Wooden Boat page - https://www.woodenboat.com/marine-plywood
    Note; they say BS1088 is " BS 1088 is the coin of the realm, the sine qua non of plywood grades."

    BS 1088 has become a meaningless attribute. Lots of okoume out there that is stamped BS 1088 is really just junk. Unscrupulous manufacturers realized some time ago that just having the magic number slapped on their product allowed them to charge a premium for shoddy goods. Anyone with an inkpad and stamp can pretend their products meet the previous high standard of BS 1088. There are no plywood police walking the standards beat. Stick with respected names like Bruynzeel or Joubert. They value their reputations and do not seem willing to compromise their standards, unlike a lot of shady third world manufacturers.
    Last edited by Dusty Yevsky; 05-15-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Facebook - which is the most active venue these days. Though I have chimed in a bit over the years on the Aussie site.
    I left facebook a few years ago. Kind of glad I did. I'm sure you know why. I may rejoin and find the GIS group. I just need assurances that I'm not going to have my email locked due to being overrun with spam and having my phone called 392 times a day because facebook sold my info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Ben2go, suggest you look a little bit harder.

    What you require is Okoume BS1088 plywood approved by Lloyds Register.
    Type that into your friendly Google and you will find lots of suppliers. Here are three;
    https://www.marine-plywood.us/mahogany_okoume.htm
    https://www.clcboats.com/modules/cat...marine-plywood
    http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

    Notice something right away they are all in 6mm thickness.......nothing thinner.

    For an explanation of terms read this Wooden Boat page - https://www.woodenboat.com/marine-plywood
    Note; they say BS1088 is " BS 1088 is the coin of the realm, the sine qua non of plywood grades."


    The wood in the hull in your boat is the lowest cost item you have to purchase, per metre length of the boat.
    There is no point being a skinflint when it comes to making the purchase of the wood that keeps the water out!
    Thanks. I am familiar with the BS1088 specs. People here are not. Not many in the marinas around here are either.

    Before I deleted my blog, I went through some boat plans BOM and listed the possible hull costs. I was amazed at how low the cost for some was with spec'd materials.

    If you step up to the counter here and say Okuome or BS1088, you'll get a look like you're speaking alien. If you call and ask the same question, you'll probably get hung up on. I've done it. The lack of knowledge around my area has been a major factor in putting off my boat builds besides my health conditions. Now I am prepared to go the extra mile for the extra smiles, of sailing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    BS 1088 has become a meaningless attribute. Lots of okoume out there that is stamped BS 1088 is really just junk. Unscrupulous manufacturers realized some time ago that just having the magic number slapped on their product allowed them to charge a premium for shoddy goods. Anyone with an inkpad and stamp can pretend their products meet the previous high standard of BS 1088. There are no plywood police walking the standards beat. Stick with respected names like Bruynzeel or Joubert. They value their reputations and do not seem willing to compromise their standards, unlike a lot of shady third world manufacturers.
    I can see that. Here BS1088 is a meaningless term. "Ahhh, yeah, we got sum plywood over thar."




    For those looking on and don't understand BS1088. Have a good read.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1088

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff plywood selection questions.

    Oh, I forgot to add, I think I have found a small mom and pop marina not far from me that does repair work. They use Meranti and Okuome as core materials when repairing a cored fiberglass hull.

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    Default

    Try World Panel Products in Florida.
    https://www.worldpanel.com

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