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Thread: Religion in the US - current data

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    ^ Greg, you missed the most important part. The issue of the "Divine Right of Kings" which was the main reason for the Glorious Revolution.

    Who was this then?
    Edward VI of England
    King of England

    Edward VI was King of England and Ireland from 28 January 1547 until his death. He was crowned on 20 February at the age of nine. Edward was the son of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour, and England's first monarch to be raised as a Protestant. Wikipedia



    Born: 12 October 1537, Hampton Court Palace, Molesey


    Died: 6 July 1553, Palace of Placentia


    Reign: 28 January 1547 Ė 6 July 1553

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ Greg, you missed the most important part. The issue of the "Divine Right of Kings" which was the main reason for the Glorious Revolution.

    Who was this then?
    My memory of the history of the English monarchy gets tangled up sometimes, and in my attempt to be somewhat brief, I left out the protestant child king Edward VI, who never actually ruled, and the turmoil following his death, which saw his protestant cousin rule for a few days, to be be deposed by Edward's half-sister, the Catholic Bloody Mary, who attempted to re-establish Roman Catholicism during her 5-year reign, which was undone after her death by the protestant virgin queen Elizabeth I.

    The idea that English monarchs (and other European monarchs) ruled by divine right was centuries old by the time of the Glorious Revolution and was asserted by English monarch regardless of their allegiance to Rome.

    All of which is to say that quibbling over whether one is catholic with a small "c" or a large "C" is a bit silly -- as are the actual doctrinal differences of the various religious sects -- except that those differences have been used to rationalize and justify insurrections, wars, the razing of cities and the slaughter of innocents, and other assorted bloody mayhem. In "religious" conflicts, there has generally enough evil on both sides, no matter who "started" the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Christendom's intent was and is to destroy cultures.
    That's a bit of a reach me thinks.

    It is an inclination, born of evolution, for humans to seek out and grab 'more' resources.
    I would say it is a human tendency to destroy 'other' cultures. Intent implies some kind of, well, intent....... (huh?).

    Is it the 'intention' of capitalism to destroy traditional cultures in South America, on Pacific islands, in remote China or Russia. Was it capitalism's intent to destroy traditional life for North American first peoples and Australian first peoples (and so on). It was certainly the result, but was it the intent?

    It is unfortunately a human trait that can be illustrated through many examples throughout history. The relationship with religion is incidental.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So was it for the science, or to make the mumbo jumbo more "accurate"?
    True, but then he did not live in Catholic Italy but was under the wing of a serious member of an aristocracy.
    Kepler was a scientist first - he did things very rigorously. He did it for the science.
    The Mumbo Jumbo was the orthodox knowledge of the day, making it accurate may have been an intention - that doesn't mean his work wasn't scientific or somehow lacked value as science.
    Not under mad catholics, but he had his fair share of mad protestants.

    Newton was a rabid religious nut, he tried to establish the date for Armagedon and he was an alchemist. he is also regarded as one of the great scientists of all time - and credited with the invention of scientific method, which i find hard to accept considering he was born after Kepler died.
    "Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors." (Source: Isaac Newton's Religious Views [wiki])
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ Greg, you missed the most important part. The issue of the "Divine Right of Kings" which was the main reason for the Glorious Revolution.

    Who was this then?
    Given the leftovers surfacing as the Divine Right of Presidents, another 'glorious revolution' might be in order. But then given the indifefrence of a major part of the electorate maybe not.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    My memory of the history of the English monarchy gets tangled up sometimes, and in my attempt to be somewhat brief, I left out the protestant child king Edward VI, who never actually ruled, and the turmoil following his death, which saw his protestant cousin rule for a few days, to be be deposed by Edward's half-sister, the Catholic Bloody Mary, who attempted to re-establish Roman Catholicism during her 5-year reign, which was undone after her death by the protestant virgin queen Elizabeth I.

    The idea that English monarchs (and other European monarchs) ruled by divine right was centuries old by the time of the Glorious Revolution and was asserted by English monarch regardless of their allegiance to Rome.

    All of which is to say that quibbling over whether one is catholic with a small "c" or a large "C" is a bit silly -- as are the actual doctrinal differences of the various religious sects -- except that those differences have been used to rationalize and justify insurrections, wars, the razing of cities and the slaughter of innocents, and other assorted bloody mayhem. In "religious" conflicts, there has generally enough evil on both sides, no matter who "started" the war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why are you obsessing about Catholicism? It was no worse than any other stinking rich bloated reactionary power hungry institution.
    My point was that by forgetting about the issue of "Devine Right" you missed all of the developments including the Civil War up until the Glorious Revolution put the issue to bed once and for all. This was as important as catholic meddling in the governance of the UK, which started with Regnans in Excelsis: The Bull of Pope Pius V against Elizabeth and continued up until the Bantry Bay failed attempt
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  7. #112
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    That's a bit of a reach me thinks.

    <snip>
    It is unfortunately a human trait that can be illustrated through many examples throughout history. The relationship with religion is incidental.
    Compared with Islam, Christianity sponsored Crusades against any one who did not follow the orthodox Christian view of how to worship, including other Christians.
    The Albigensian Crusade or the Cathar Crusade (1209–1229; French: Croisade des albigeois, Occitan: Crosada dels albigeses) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, in southern France.
    Islam on the other hand recognised that both Christians and Jews worshipped the same god and so should be cut a lot of slack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Kepler was a scientist first - he did things very rigorously. He did it for the science.
    You are ascribing 21stC thinking and values to an early 17thC man. How can you know that he did it for "the science"?
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    That's a bit of a reach me thinks.

    It is an inclination, born of evolution, for humans to seek out and grab 'more' resources.
    I would say it is a human tendency to destroy 'other' cultures. Intent implies some kind of, well, intent....... (huh?).

    Is it the 'intention' of capitalism to destroy traditional cultures in South America, on Pacific islands, in remote China or Russia. Was it capitalism's intent to destroy traditional life for North American first peoples and Australian first peoples (and so on). It was certainly the result, but was it the intent?

    It is unfortunately a human trait that can be illustrated through many examples throughout history. The relationship with religion is incidental.
    Just so. Religion is but one tool of human society. It can, and has, been used for much ill. And much good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Just so. Religion is but one tool of human society. It can, and has, been used for much ill. And much good.
    It's overwhelmingly a rationalization of tribalism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Was it capitalism's intent to destroy traditional life for North American first peoples and Australian first peoples (and so on). It was certainly the result, but was it the intent?
    As soon as the question was taken up, yes; as it was the intent of western religion prior to capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    It is unfortunately a human trait that can be illustrated through many examples throughout history. The relationship with religion is incidental.
    Capitalism and bigotry are joined at the hip, which accounts for the dogged effort to separate them. Capital was formed by the exploitation of colonies. Bigotry was invented as a justification. Capitalism arose in a bigoted culture. No accident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It's (religion) overwhelmingly a rationalization of tribalism.
    This is factually incorrect. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Not to minimize the harm done by religion at all; that's all too evident, but the more universalist branches of all the major religions have historically been one of the major forces working against narrow tribalism. 'All men are brothers' was at one point an unthinkably radical proposition, and it was not initially promoted by secular humanists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Capitalism and bigotry are joined at the hip, which accounts for the dogged effort to separate them. Capital was formed by the exploitation of colonies. Bigotry was invented as a justification. Capitalism arose in a bigoted culture. No accident.
    And with all repset, this is factually wrong too. Bigotry is a human universal that long predates capitalism, a subset of the kind of tribalism which very likely goes back before our species. It most certainly is neither unique to capitalist economies, not is it worse under capitalism - rather the opposite, in fact. In the long term, bigotry is bad for business. People don't always think long term, however.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-17-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It's overwhelmingly a rationalization of tribalism.
    Overwhelmingly? No, I don't think so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Overwhelmingly? No, I don't think so.
    Too bad we can't ask the slain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    This is factually incorrect. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
    You're talking about propositions in the abstract. I'm talking about history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Not to minimize the harm done by religion at all; that's all too evident, but the more universalist branches of all the major religions have historically been one of the major forces working against narrow tribalism. 'All men are brothers' was at one point an unthinkably radical proposition, and it was not initially promoted by secular humanists.
    True, but for many (hundreds of millions) it's still an unthinkably radical proposition, and they are decreasingly disposed to render even lip service to it, if they ever did. Trump goes to Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And with all repset, this is factually wrong too. Bigotry is a human universal that long predates capitalism, a subset of the kind of tribalism which very likely goes back before our species. It most certainly is neither unique to capitalist economies, not is it worse under capitalism - rather the opposite, in fact. In the long term, bigotry is bad for business. People don't always think long term, however.
    The proposition is that the connection is incidental. I say the connection was purposeful from the moment someone made the connection in his mind; now developed and organized to the point of 501(c)(3) "non-profit organizations" that spend millions if not billions of dollars to prove it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    You're talking about propositions in the abstract. I'm talking about history.
    So am I. History demonstrates that both those ideas - that 'religion is overwhelmingly a rationalization of tribalism', and the capitalism and bigotry are essentially linked - are false.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-17-2018 at 02:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    So am I. History demonstrates that both those ideas - that 'religion is overwhelmingly a rationalization of tribalism', and the capitalism and bigotry are essentially linked - are false.
    What role greater than as a rationalization of tribalism has religion played in history?

    The link between capitalism and bigotry is intentional, and therefore historical. That makes it more than incidental. I don't claim that it's essential.
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    What role greater than as a rationalization of tribalism has religion played in history?
    The difficulty with the question is that 'religion' is not just one thing, but hugely variable, and the effects of different types are at least as variable. But lately (past 500 years or so, increasing recently) I'd say the reduction of tribalism. One could add ending the slave trade, which was to a large extent a religiously-motivated enterprise.
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    The various phenomena, from church attendance statistics to body counts to dumb statements made on playgrounds, all have in common their shaping by religion, if not their sole origin there. This is my point, religion ties it all together, such that it all fits under the name religion. I guess you could call it "the influence of religion" as distinguished from "religion per se". What requires that distinction to be made?

    The trouble is, the bad stuff is very notable, but what about when religion prevents bad stuff? Where's the evidence of it? Prevention is a hard thing to prove. How many accidents were prevented by me driving on the right side of the street?

    Abolition was of course a noble chapter, though we might argue about what really ended slavery.

    The effort to get past tribalism is gathering strength . . . ever so slowly.
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    Osbourne, I think that you are confusing the fact that tribes can form within religions with the religion itself.
    The spread of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are all the antithesis of tribalism. Tribalism is inward looking, them and us, keep them out. Those three religions have bought "them" into the fold big time.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Have you met celtic supporters?
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Compared with Islam, Christianity sponsored Crusades against any one who did not follow the orthodox Christian view of how to worship, including other Christians.
    Islam on the other hand recognised that both Christians and Jews worshipped the same god and so should be cut a lot of slack.
    Rome has never been at all tolerant of competition to it's business.

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    The spread of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are all the antithesis of tribalism.
    My point exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Have you met celtic supporters?
    Like I said, tribes can form within religions.

    Consider Millwall supporters within Football.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Prevention is a hard thing to prove.
    Yep. Where is the good guy with a god?

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    Religion making more tribes is less tribalism?

    There were no Shia or Sunni before there was Islam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    There were no Shia or Sunni before there was Islam.
    Plenty of tribes, though, and plenty of war between them. And yes, the major religions have made people less tribal. Not always, not in all places, but in general, very much so.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-18-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Plenty of tribes, though, and plenty of war between them.
    Plenty of religion to recruit the troops and organize the civilians.
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    The spread of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are all the antithesis of tribalism.
    From the perspective of all three being roughly equal, your point seems valid. But they aren't equal - in the eyes of at least one. As a friend of mine (literal, face-to-face, known her for years, she really is a 'good person') said just this morning, "Someday all knees will bow to him". It should go without saying she is Christian.. & Christendom has as its ultimate aim the eradication of _all_ other cultures.. there will be One Tribe. It wishes an end to all others.. to Buddhism, to Islam (Boy, Howdy!), to Hindi, to..... you name it. This is why Peb & Co feel the Crusades were 'defensive'.. 2 reasons, actually. 1) because man tends to see in others, himself - & they know they intend the eradication of all others, soo.. & 2) he/they have to defend their 'rules of the tribe'.. and when one of the tribes rules is "all knees will..", well, offense is defense! This same pattern exists with their belief in the existence of a 'war on religion' - meaning Christendom, as no other is valid in their eyes.


    Tribalism is inward looking, them and us, keep them out
    Christendom is different.. 'them & us', destroy (absorb/convert) them, so all are 'us'.

    Now, it is interesting that Christendom has internal factions which have & celebrate 'brand differences' (I laugh when the (local variants) Free Will Baptists are _certain_ they are different than the Church of Christ'rs!) - but we can thank those many factions (various Catholic & Protestant, etc) for the failure (so far) of Christendom to conquer all.



    David, gypsie was referring to a specific point I made RE: 'Christendom'.. _not_ religion in general, tho you tried to make it about the general. Understandable, as it is a common theme for people to say 'religion means what I find it to mean' (y'all didn't think Carroll didn't have an awareness of mankind as he wrote that story?) - aka, "I'm good, I'm a Christian, therefore Christians are good".. It ain't true. Period. Any 'good' a person may have/be is in spite of - not because of - the 'rules of the tribe'. Plus, my point was about Christendom.. not religion in general (tho it, too, must pass).

    Now, as religion is 'rules of the tribe', & a tribe (sorta/kinda/maybe - inneresting, innit, that Libertarians (we don't need no stinkin' rules) are the biggest supporters of the religious 'rules of the tribe' state.. hmmm..) needs rules, it stands to reason that religion has been party to some good.. (that's "party to", _not_ "the required source of") along with a ton of bad. The greater problem starts when any particular religion becomes 'the one set of absolute rules from the one correct, infallible & omnipotent maker of everything (except itself?)'. At that point, the wrongness's of mankind - and make no mistake, the rules of the tribe are written by man, not some fantasy being - become unassailable.. and we end up with centuries of 'fantasy sky being wants us to kill [Current Group of Blame for All Bad Stuff] - (wrong sexuality/wrong 'country of birth'/wrong-not religious enough/etc..). Now, the attack comes from man.. always.. but, when an infallible sky dude is the claimed source of the command, it's hard to stop.. & many suffer. See, esp, not 1 & not 2, but at least 3 Inquisitions where torture/rape/murder most heinous were done in the name of an infallible sky dude (who wasn't being properly respected) - and the ongoing Crusades against 'the other guys'.

    One example.. Peb opined that a tenet of Catholicism is it is not in disagreement with science.. Keith opined that 'used to mean' Science changed for religion, implying that is no more. Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you abortion.. & a conflict between the Church & Science.. where the Church is very much in discord with Science.. and shows no intention of recognizing Science - to the extent of encouraging/justifying killing members of Science (mothers? Doctors?) in the name of their infallible omnipotent being's absolutely true rules (which supposedly includes one against killing, but let's not get rational here..).

    Back to my friends statement - one which Christendom has expressed for centuries.. "_All_ knees will bend.." - Christendom, so sure that it & its beliefs are absolutely & singularly correct, aims to destroy all other cultures - as those others are wrong! That some few who feel part of Christendom might not have that as their foremost aim doesn't change the greater bent - and they lend their support to a system which does.


    Yes, gypsie - the religion of capitalism carries a similar evil - all must be consumed by the beast.. and I say the relationship is most definitely _not_ incidental.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    A totally anecdotal contribution to the OP: Iím currently in St. Paul, Mn for the wedding of a nephew on my wifeís side. Itís occurring to me that this is the 4th wedding of a nephew, hers and mine combined. All have been secular ceremonies. One generation older (their parents) and all were religious ceremonies. Carry on.
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    Here, Bobby, have a shot of this Magic Elixer!
    Hic!

    Thankee, Pardner! 0-:

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Yeah, they are.
    are not

    What... your want more than bald assertion? OK... a primer... Horner's 'Mind Your Faith'

    OR... a quick essay -- https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102011016
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  33. #138
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    47,229

    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Religion at my house is pretty non-dogmatic. An essay from my favorite minister, on religion, conscience, and spiritual matters --

    https://mailchi.mp/ab3105e81d59/pent...ce-may-20-2018
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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