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Thread: Religion in the US - current data

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Birth of Mohammed to the Crusades? Try late 7th century until 1683, almost exactly 1000 years.
    The Crusades were not defensive, yes? When did they begin? Not after a thousand years of Muslim aggression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    All of North Africa, Western Europe, the Balkans, and Asia Minor were Christian.
    They were Roman. Rome made Christianity the state religion. If Rome was Christendom, then Christendom was established by force.
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    then Christendom was established by force.
    ie, 'defensive'..

    Nick called it.. Christendom's intent was and is to destroy cultures. That is where they differ from most of history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Jeez guys - you may not agree with peb on theology, but he's basically right this time about the history. Islam spread by conquest initially, and for a good long time afterward; that was the whole 'jihad' idea. Now like every war with a religious component, how much was for religion and how much for ordinary power is pretty blurry; people have never needed much of an excuse to conquer their neighbors and steal their land and property. There's plenty of blame to go around, but the Muslims sure used region as an excuse a lot. Peb's got it about right on this one, including the date of the last siege of Vienna.
    There are two serious errors.

    1 - Thinking of the Ottoman Empire as representing Islam - this was really about power, profit and control of trade - a quick test might be to read the accounts of the various Sultans and the Hadj.

    Much of the Balkans and notably Constantinopole remained Christian after the Ottomans took power.

    After taking Constantinople, Mehmed met with the Orthodox patriarch, Gennadios and worked out an arrangement in which the Orthodox Church, in exchange for being able to maintain its autonomy and land, accepted Ottoman authority.[4] Because of bad relations between the latter Byzantine Empire and the states of western Europe as epitomized by Loukas Notaras's famous remark "Better the Sultan's turban than the Cardinal's Hat", the majority of the Orthodox population accepted Ottoman rule as preferable to Venetian rule.[4]
    2 - Thinking of the siege of Vienna as "The End" - it was no more the end than the siege of Stalingrad was the end of world war two - it marked a High Water mark for the expansion of the Ottoman empire - and that's all.
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Well, sure. Ordinary wars for power and wars for region are inextricably intertwined, particularly with Christianity and Islam, which are more alike than they like to admit. Between Crusade and Jihad, not much difference except the flags. And yes, the Islamic world a some points was considerably more tolerant of other regions that they were in Christian Europe; not 'freedom of religion' by modern standards, but not awful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The Crusades were not defensive, yes? When did they begin? Not after a thousand years of Muslim aggression.
    Islam waged a 1000 year offensive war on europe, with the intent of church conquering all of Europe. Repetitive attacks entered from Spain, Italy, and the Balkans, at times going deep into the heart of Europe. The Crusades are properly understood as a poor attempt to turn a defensive war into an offensive war. Perhaps not that unlike Lee at Gettysburg. Poorly executed, horribly coordinated, got majorly off track, all is true. But that is what they were in intent.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Islam waged a 1000 year offensive war on europe, with the intent of church conquering all of Europe. Repetitive attacks entered from Spain, Italy, and the Balkans, at times going deep into the heart of Europe. The Crusades are properly understood as a poor attempt to turn a defensive war into an offensive war. Perhaps not that unlike Lee at Gettysburg. Poorly executed, horribly coordinated, got majorly off track, all is true. But that is what they were in intent.
    Here is one source (of many) that disagree
    With the Moors established in Spain and the advances of the Seljuk Turks forcing their way through Asia Minor, eliminating Rome’s main rival, and occupying the Holy city of Jerusalem, the Muslims may have been perceived as an obstacle to the Roman Catholic Church’s supremacy. After all, the idea of the Crusades bore fruit from Urban II speech; the Papacy had its hand in these affairs as well. Yet the reasons may have been masked in religious pretexts. “In reality, the Latin Church was rather more influential in high politics than in the lives of ordinary men and women”. As was previously mentioned, the majority of Crusaders were common people, not nobility or clergy. What can be argued then, is perhaps the Latin Church attempted to dissuade the growing restiveness of common society, stemming partly from waves of famine, overpopulation, plague, and religious disillusionment, by encouraging the colonization of the Holy Land under religious pretexts, leaving the nobles free to consolidate their feudal holdings and the bishops to establish their religious authority in society, as well as wage a religious war against Latin Christendom’s main obstacle to controlling the eastern Mediterranean: Islam.
    http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...bjectives.html
    Then there is this
    The growing difficulties faced by Christians in travelling to the Holy Places led the Byzantine Emperor to request aid from the West, which responded by launching the Crusades.


    On 15 July 1099 the Crusaders took Jerusalem by storm, massacring Jews and Muslims, and made the city the heart of their kingdom for nearly a century, until 2 October 1187.
    http://www.holysepulchre.custodia.or...lt.asp?id=4084
    The consistent theme is that the Crusades were about Jerusalem and killing non Christians.
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Islam waged a 1000 year offensive war on europe, with the intent of church conquering all of Europe. Repetitive attacks entered from Spain, Italy, and the Balkans, at times going deep into the heart of Europe. The Crusades are properly understood as a poor attempt to turn a defensive war into an offensive war. Perhaps not that unlike Lee at Gettysburg. Poorly executed, horribly coordinated, got majorly off track, all is true. But that is what they were in intent.
    300 years after the death of Muhammad was the first Crusade. Then to now is 900.

    The 300 for sure don't comprise Islamic war on Christianity. The 900 could easily be called competition. That's MEM, man. Islam vs. Christianity and both against the Jews. When it was just the Jews, it was them against the whoever, neighbors. Uninterrupted aggression, defensive only when necessary. Promised land, true prophet. Can't be otherwise under that doctrine.

    The Crusades ended because they didn't pay. Do you suggest it was an attack of conscience?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    300 years after the death of Muhammad was the first Crusade. Then to now is 900.

    The 300 for sure don't comprise Islamic war on Christianity. The 900 could easily be called competition. That's MEM, man. Islam vs. Christianity and both against the Jews. When it was just the Jews, it was them against the whoever, neighbors. Uninterrupted aggression, defensive only when necessary. Promised land, true prophet. Can't be otherwise under that doctrine.

    The Crusades ended because they didn't pay. Do you suggest it was an attack of conscience?
    No, I suggest the Crusades ended because the Christian lost. Not paying? Could be worded that way.

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    'ended'? Have you not been paying attention to the last couple hundred years or so?? All they've done is morph to the times. Christendom can no more stop their drive for a monoculture than the earth stop spinning.

    Speaking of which (destruction of other cultures) - since that is Christendom's aim, they can only imagine it's 'the others' aim too.. 'Defensive', my hairy, white, ___!

    But one raised in the doctrine.. will see everything in light of the doctrine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Here is one source (of many) that disagree
    http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...bjectives.html
    Then there is this
    http://www.holysepulchre.custodia.or...lt.asp?id=4084
    The consistent theme is that the Crusades were about Jerusalem and killing non Christians.
    Yes the Crusades were about Jerusalem. That does not change my point at all.

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    There is a common conflation which i find helpful to tease apart.

    Religion and God.
    People are always mixing those two things together like it is meaningful.

    Man created god because they needed an explanation for why the world is the way it is, and why they felt so important in it. Those with absolute power usurped this need to create a religion, call themselves god and exercised power.... absolutely.
    Man created religions like Christianity, to dis-empower those with absolute power, so they could have a fighting chance at not dying horribly at the whim of some arbitrary living god.

    You don't believe in religion, you believe in God.
    You don't adhere to God, you adhere to religion.
    Religion is political, god is metaphysical.

    We have more effective political tools, we don't need religion.
    The universe is less mysterious to us, we can accept that there will be things we don't understand, and we don't need a god to fill in the blanks.
    Last edited by gypsie; 05-14-2018 at 01:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Mean while, what about all of this knowledge that the Irish monasteries preserved? A throw away statement as yet undefined about what sort of knowledge, unsupported by any linked references.
    Its not a subject in know much about, so open to being educated.

    As far as i recall from mumbling in my past, Irish monks didn't so much preserve knowledge in monasteries, like you might preserve fruit. After the fall of the Roman empire the Irish monasteries expanded back through Europe at a rate of knots. They were one of the very few organisations that had educated staff and a solid method or ideology behind them - and was big.
    As they moved through Europe they established monasteries everywhere and from those monasteries they influenced power through their brand of teachings. As such they are celebrated as having held this knowledge and then re-birthed, as you might, after the 'Dark Ages'. At that time they were a considerable influence and one of the only continent wide organisations with the capacity to educate. They were continent wide, they had monasteries in some unlikely places like Switzerland and Germany, as far as i know there was even an Irish monastery in Iceland before the vikings arrived there. Wonder what happened to that .

    It would be a reach to say they held knowledge exclusively, they just simply had the means to share it effectively. I understand the knowledge was knowledge of the bible, how to read, how to interpret the stories. Considering the bible at the time was a political tool, a reference for morality and law, that is a not an inconsiderable knowledge to have. Hence a mythology around the bearer would have been inevitable.
    I believe they also did maintain skills that had withered after the fall of the roman empire. Things like book binding had fallen into almost complete disuse outside of Irish monasteries. You can imagine how important that trade is in the preservation and dissemination of knowledge.
    Last edited by gypsie; 05-14-2018 at 01:33 AM.
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    Consider the context of the debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The Muslims in India, Spain and so on preserved and pushed maths and science forward whilst the church held it back or ignored it. For example Muslims bought zero to the west from India and worked on light and astronomy. Consider the Umayyad Caliphate in Spain.
    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    The church didn't hold it back, that's a myth. Heck, a lot if the preservation of ancient knowledge was done by the Irish Monks (7th and 8th centuries). But Europe was busy defending itself from repeated Muslm invasions. In addition to Scandinavian raids throughout Christianson, and even the Mongols. No, the so called dark ages (when agricultural production doubled in Britain), Christendom was under attack from all sides.
    Peb argues that the Church furthered science and the Irish monks preserved ancient knowledge.
    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Its not a subject in know much about, so open to being educated.

    As far as i recall from mumbling in my past, Irish monks didn't so much preserve knowledge in monasteries, like you might preserve fruit. After the fall of the Roman empire the Irish monasteries expanded back through Europe at a rate of knots. They were one of the very few organisations that had educated staff and a solid method or ideology behind them - and was big.
    As they moved through Europe they established monasteries everywhere and from those monasteries they influenced power through their brand of teachings. As such they are celebrated as having held this knowledge and then re-birthed, as you might, after the 'Dark Ages'. At that time they were a considerable influence and one of the only continent wide organisations with the capacity to educate. They were continent wide, they had monasteries in some unlikely places like Switzerland and Germany, as far as i know there was even an Irish monastery in Iceland before the vikings arrived there. Wonder what happened to that .

    It would be a reach to say they held knowledge exclusively, they just simply had the means to share it effectively. I understand the knowledge was knowledge of the bible, how to read, how to interpret the stories. Considering the bible at the time was a political tool, a reference for morality and law, that is a not an inconsiderable knowledge to have. Hence a mythology around the bearer would have been inevitable.
    I believe they also did maintain skills that had withered after the fall of the roman empire. Things like book binding had fallen into almost complete disuse outside of Irish monasteries. You can imagine how important that trade is in the preservation and dissemination of knowledge.
    Your post nails it. All the monasteries were interested in was saving souls by bible study and prayer. They had a view of how the universe worked and a reactionary response to new ideas that disagreed until the evidence became overwhelming. Tycho Brahe and Kepler were doing astronomy to improver the data used by astrologers. How scientific was that?
    Håkansson, Håkan (2004). "Tycho the Apocalyptic: History, Prophecy, and the Meaning of Natural Phenomena". Acta Historicae Rerum Naturalium Necnon Technicarum. 8: 211–236.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahp View Post
    We Episcopalians are not protestants. We are catholics, with a small "c". We had a falling out with the Pope of Rome about 500 years ago.
    Yes, Henry VIII fell out (didn't he really "protest"?) when the pope for scolded him for rejecting established doctrine; he became a polygamist murderer in his failed attempt to father a male heir and at the same time pronounced himself head of the Church of England. That protest/pronouncement, of course led to the English civil war and its "religious" persecutions and executions, and thence the "glorious revolution" when a foreign monarch was invited in to rule the country, and thence centuries of division of Ireland according to religious sect -- hardly a history when catholics (small "c" or large, protestant or not) showed the world the benefits of religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    No, I suggest the Crusades ended because the Christian lost. Not paying? Could be worded that way.
    They were lost and they weren't defensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    Yes, Henry VIII fell out (didn't he really "protest"?) when the pope for scolded him for rejecting established doctrine; he became a polygamist . . .
    By what law?
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nolan View Post
    Yes, Henry VIII fell out (didn't he really "protest"?) when the pope for scolded him for rejecting established doctrine; he became a polygamist murderer in his failed attempt to father a male heir and at the same time pronounced himself head of the Church of England. That protest/pronouncement, of course led to the English civil war and its "religious" persecutions and executions, and thence the "glorious revolution" when a foreign monarch was invited in to rule the country, and thence centuries of division of Ireland according to religious sect -- hardly a history when catholics (small "c" or large, protestant or not) showed the world the benefits of religion.
    Do you know, I am not sure that any of that is factually correct.
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    This is a religious argument - we don't need no stinkin facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This is a religious argument - we don't need no stinkin facts.


    Of course Henry just did what the founders of many commercial sects have done since, especially in modern times. Stated he was the only conduit to god….. via the CofE. Confiscated property, banked the funds…. amassed followers some by force, in time became the establishment, etc. etc.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This is a religious argument - we don't need no stinkin facts.
    Nah, this is history; we're a loooong way from theology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    They were lost and they weren't defensive.
    You guys have a hard time reading. I said exactly that in both things in post 179 and 157 respectively. It is really annoying trying to carry on conversations with people who are unable to read.

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    The Crusades were a relatively minor part of a war that existed between the Christian and Muslim world for 1000 years. A war that was overwhelmingly offensive on the part of Islam and defensive on the part of Christendom.

    ---

    Europe was busy defending itself from repeated Muslm invasions.
    For openers, only if you call North Africa Europe because it was Christian because it was Roman. What about non-Roman Europe? Were the Muslims intent on conquering the Finns?

    There's no "Europe" even now, in the view of a substantial sector of conservative opinion. You're saying that from it's inception Islam planned to conquer something that was unaware of its own existence. Who would have signed the surrender? There was no "Europe." Plainly, it was Rome trying to retain what it had taken by force, almost entirely prior to Christianity becoming the state religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Tycho Brahe and Kepler were doing astronomy to improver the data used by astrologers. How scientific was that?
    Yep, Kepler was hired to read the stars for royalty - BUT - that was to pay the rent. He did chart the planets in a very scientific way and observed that they were orbiting in elipses. Which involved pretty serious maths for the time.
    This also proved unequivocally that the galaxy was heliocentric and he didn't suffer a jot for it. He was a contemporary of Galileo and jealous of Galileo's telescopes. But he wasn't as much of a show pony and didn't wind people up the way Galileo did.
    Last edited by gypsie; 05-14-2018 at 10:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Yep, Kepler was hired to read the stars for royalty - BUT - that was to pay the rent. He did chart the planets in a very scientific way and observed that they were orbiting in elipses. Which involved pretty serious maths for the time.
    So was it for the science, or to make the mumbo jumbo more "accurate"?
    This also proved unequivocally that the galaxy was heliocentric and he didn't suffer a jot for it. He was a contemporary of Galileo and jealous of Galileo's telescopes. But he wasn't as much of a show pony and didn't wind people up the way Galileo did.
    True, but then he did not live in Catholic Italy but was under the wing of a serious member of an aristocracy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So was it for the science, or to make the mumbo jumbo more "accurate"?
    True, but then he did not live in Catholic Italy but was under the wing of a serious member of an aristocracy.
    A primary step for the self preserving astronomer.
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    You guys might find all this history interesting...I find it exhausting.

    History is is just one bloody thing after another.

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    So, bottom line, as more and more people give up on religion, does it mean politicians like Pence eventually become irrelevant? Of course their solid core of Catholics remain, the "conservative" ones, anyway, the folks who don't care for Pope Francis.

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    Mr Pence is a very, very long way away from any kind of Roman Catholic. The alliance in the US between conservative Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants is a recent thing, and pretty bizarre from a historical perspective.

    FWIW, astrology was taken quite seriously by all sorts of people at the time; it was most certainly not just a Catholic thing. In fact, the beginnings of modern science were mixed with a surprising amount of hogwash. Isaac Newton wrote extensively on alchemy and numerology, and appeared to take them very seriously indeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    FWIW, astrology was taken quite seriously by all sorts of people at the time; it was most certainly not just a Catholic thing. In fact, the beginnings of modern science were mixed with a surprising amount of hogwash. Isaac Newton wrote extensively on alchemy and numerology, and appeared to take them very seriously indeed.
    When Brahe and Kepler were working there was very little other than Catholicism in western Europe so the Vatican was the sole authority, or it tried to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    When Brahe and Kepler were working there was very little other than Catholicism in western Europe so the Vatican was the sole authority, or it tried to be.
    Kepler was a Lutheran, although he sometimes lived in Catholic countries, but well after the Reformation (1571-1630). He actually started off studying protestant theology. (Source here.) Heliocentric astronomy was not OK in many protestant areas as well, because it supposedly contradicted the bible; that nonsense was by no mean exclusive to Catholics. And astrology was taken very seriously in many places, not just western Europe, and for many years after the Reformation, among both both Protestants and Catholics. We can confidently say that astrology is nonsense, but it was conventional wisdom in many times and places, not just a Catholic thing at all.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-15-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Kepler was a Lutheran, although he sometimes lived in Catholic countries, but well after the Reformation (1571-1630). Heliocentric astronomy was not OK in many protestant areas as well, because it supposedly contradicted the bible; that nonsense was by no mean exclusive to Catholics. and astrology was taken very seriously in many places, not just western Europe, and for many years after the Reformation, among both both Protestants and Catholics. We can confidently say that astrology is nonsense, but it was conventional wisdom in many times and places, not just a Catholic thing at all.
    Why are you obsessing about Catholicism? It was no worse than any other stinking rich bloated reactionary power hungry institution.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Rome, Imperial Rome, lived on in the Roman church , it became an Instrument of the State, it became The State. They made a business of it somewhat earlier than the others but the opprobrium is equally applicable.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    1,000 years of Muslim aggression against Europe:

    France and the Ottoman Empire, united by mutual opposition to Habsburg rule, became strong allies. The French conquests of Nice (1543) and Corsica (1553) occurred as a joint venture between the forces of the French king Francis I and Suleiman, and were commanded by the Ottoman admirals Barbarossa Hayreddin Pasha and Turgut Reis. A month before the siege of Nice, France supported the Ottomans with an artillery unit during the 1543 Ottoman conquest of Esztergom in northern Hungary. After further advances by the Turks, the Habsburg ruler Ferdinand officially recognized Ottoman ascendancy in Hungary in 1547.

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    Default Re: Religion in the US - current data

    Originally Posted by Greg Nolan
    Yes, Henry VIII fell out (didn't he really "protest"?) when the pope for scolded him for rejecting established doctrine; he became a polygamist murderer in his failed attempt to father a male heir and at the same time pronounced himself head of the Church of England. That protest/pronouncement, of course led to the English civil war and its "religious" persecutions and executions, and thence the "glorious revolution" when a foreign monarch was invited in to rule the country, and thence centuries of division of Ireland according to religious sect -- hardly a history when catholics (small "c" or large, protestant or not) showed the world the benefits of religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Do you know, I am not sure that any of that is factually correct.
    Well, calling Henry VIII a polygamist is not technically correct, I suppose -- a bit of hyperbole on my part. The rest, however, is generally correct. The unsettled state of the succession of the English monarchy through the English civil war which led to a protestant Dutchman being seated as King of England. The Dutch protestant William of Orange became William III of England and head of the English Church -- "Defender of the Faith" (or King Billy as he was known in Ireland). The problems with royal succession at that time were in no little part due to the ongoing conflict between English Roman Catholics and those who rejected the legitimacy of the Roman Pope. A very short version of the Protestantism of the English monarch:

    James I, son of RC Mary Queen of Scots (“Boody Mary” was forced to abdicate the Scottish throne because of her Catholicism) did not recognize the authority of Rome, and after the Gunpowder plot, generally persecuted those who maintained allegience to Rome.

    Next in line, Charles I, married a Roman Catholic, though he supported Anglican churchmen. Nonetheless, he was suspect in the eyes of ”reform” groupssuch as the Puritans who though him to be too Catholic and insufficiently supportive of Protestants in the Thirty Years War. His failed attempt to force the Church of Scotland to adopt Anglican High Church views led to the strengthening of Parliament and the civil war that led to his downfall, convicted of treason by Cromwell and executed.

    His successor Charles II had been raised by his Catholic mother. Protestant Cromwell, supported by Parliament, ruled and would not let him take the crown on the death of Charles I in 1649.. But after Cromwell’s death and an ineffective period of rule by Cromwell’s son, Charles II was asked to take the throne in 1660. He converted to Catholicism on his deathbed; his only childeren were not children of his wife -- they were not allowed to take the throne after his death.

    James II, his brother, became the next king after a good deal of turmoil because of his earlier support of Catholic France and his own coversion to Catholicism (although he kept his conversion secret and attended Anglican services). After much religious and political tumult, the Glorious Revolution resulted in James II fleeing to France where Louis XIV set him up with a palace and a pension, and some of the English nobility invited William III of Orange to come on over. Parliament declared that William’s wife Mary, daughter of James II, could be king of England as the husband of Queen Mary.

    Subsequently, Parliament ruled ruled that no Roman Catholic could take the English throne, and that no English monarch could marry a Roman Catholic.

    The above is a very truncated vesrion of war, persecution, torture and executions fueled in large part by religious fervor, as well as political conflict and economic greed.

    But Anglicans and Episcopalians are not just catholic with a small “c” -- they are protestants who have rejected the Church of Rome, protesting the authority of the Pope -- that is what a protestant is, after all.

    Henry VIII couldn't father a son, no matter how hard he tried, and as a result, Queen Elizabeth II is today, among other things, the head of the protestant Church of England.

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