Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

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  • Mike Seibert
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2010
    • 471

    Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

    Well, I am just a few days away from putting the canvas on the deck of my new Lightning.

    I thought I was all set with my process, but my boat partner confused me today.

    When last I raised this issue, it seemed there was a pretty good majority in favor of putting the canvas on dry, and then wetting it with boiling water before painting while wet with oil paint that was thinned like water.

    My boat partner tells me the way to do it is to wet the hell out of the canvas before stretching and stapling. He says making the canvas wet allows it to stretch more than when it is dry, so that you get extra stretch before you staple the canvas down and then you get shrinkage when the canvas dries.

    A Lightning friend used ratchet straps to stretch his canvas prior to stapling. I am going to try that method because my old hands and arms could use all of the help they can get.

    By the way, I recently learned that Tom Allen, who built many a fast Lightning, used to install the canvas on his Lightnings back in the day while a second coat of paint on the deck was wet. I guess that method worked just fine but I don't like the idea of having to rush like that.

    I ran across some discussion of installing the canvas wet, so I guess it isn't a new idea. But I don't know if it is a better idea for my purposes.

    Here is a picture of the Lightning with the 1st coat of primer.

    DSCN1730.jpg.
  • donsmarine
    Banned
    • Feb 2009
    • 117

    #2
    Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

    good advice from Gannon + Benjamin in Woodenboat a few issues back on how they do that job.

    Comment

    • johngsandusky
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2003
      • 5554

      #3
      Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

      I don't know, but I admire your project. Keep us posted.

      Comment

      • Paul Schweiss
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 594

        #4
        Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

        Your first description was how I was taught to do it.

        Comment

        • nedL
          Senior Member #1976
          • Jul 2000
          • 7544

          #5
          Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

          Absolutely beautiful job on your lightning build!
          I will admit to never having canvassed a deck myself (three canvas on frame kayaks), so am certainly no expert. I can say that for close to 50 yrs I too have heard of the various “right” ways to do it, pretty much the variations you listed. I am inclined to think that like so many things there are various ways to the same end result, so just pick your poison so to speak.

          oh,.... and there is also the method of spreading white lead on the deck, canvassing the deck, then rolling the deck until the white lead comes through the weave.

          Comment

          • Oldad
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2008
            • 3415

            #6
            Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

            When I recanvassed my old Snipe, I laid the dry canvas in wet paint. Seemed to work fine.

            Comment

            • Jay Greer
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2004
              • 14425

              #7
              Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

              Great job Mike! Lightnings are great little boats!
              For canvasing, I use the old method of using boiling water over canvas set in paint. Actually, I use white lead as it does not harden. It allows the canvas to flex as the hull twists under sail. It should be spread with a noched trowel. Sandusky Paint Co. is still a source for white lead. One caveat is that you must use raw, non pre-shrunk canvas for the job! Otherwise you are not getting what you paid for with all of that fine restorative work. I use thinned out oil based house paint directly on the wet canvas. This sets the shrink in place. Piss thin paint, just enough to color the canvas evenly is all that is needed. When it starts to look worn, another thin coat will spruce up the deck. This should last nearly forty years when done this way. Maybe even more!
              Jay

              Comment

              • David Satter
                Senior Member
                • Jul 2013
                • 418

                #8
                Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                A lot of good boatyards now set their canvas in Titebond III glue. I've been canvasing canoes for 20 years and no we don't wet it. I just stretch it tight, wetting it makes no difference your going to put a treatment on anyway. The canvas filler I use on the canoes is a good recipe . It used to have lead in it years ago. the stuff dries very hard and flexible so you can sand and paint. Well filled and painted canvas on a wooden canoe can last 30 years.
                David Satter www.sattersrestoration.com
                "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Ben Franklin

                Comment

                • Eric Hvalsoe
                  HV 16
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2443

                  #9
                  Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                  I've set canvas, and fiberglass cloth as an alternative to canvas, in latex based lagging compound. That is, coat the bare deck surface and set the membrane (tacks or staples) while the coating is still wet. Then add a coat or two of thinned lagging, dry, follow with primer and enamel of your choice. It's been some time. The label on my old can says 'Chil-Seal'. Nice stuff to work with.

                  edit to add - the primer may not be necessary

                  Comment

                  • Paul Schweiss
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 594

                    #10
                    Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                    Plus 1 on Eric’s post. If we were not laying canvas over Irish Felt we used a Borden product called Arabol, it’s intended use was as a lagging compound. It used milk as one of it’s ingredients, and in combination with the canvas made a very tight and tenacious deck covering, and on a lot of boats the canvas weave just looked right, put on as Eric described.
                    This product seems to be long gone, so I will look for “Chil-Seal”

                    Comment

                    • wizbang 13
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 24799

                      #11
                      Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                      Do you need to put anything on lightning decks other than paint?
                      The boat looks great!

                      Comment

                      • Jay Greer
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 14425

                        #12
                        Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                        Natural canvas set in Arabol, will rot!
                        Jay

                        Comment

                        • Howard Sharp
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 1999
                          • 482

                          #13
                          Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                          I just put canvas on my Herreshoff canoe, using the paint on wet canvas method, which is recommended when the deck is made from solid lumber. It took some nerve, putting oil on wet canvas, but it stops the paint from sticking to the wood underneath, so the canvas doesn't telegraph the underlying wood movements. On plywood titebond is probably the way to go.

                          Comment

                          • Pitsligo
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 2225

                            #14
                            Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                            For whatever it's worth, when I did my sloop's bedded canvas deck a couple years ago, I spoke with George (Kirby) at Kirby's paint, asking if he could make me up some unleaded bedding. He did: it's basically super-thick paint, about the consistancy of mayonaise. (He even tinted it to match the deck paint I asked for, too, in case there was bleed through.) Heck of a lot cheaper than white lead paste, and much, much more environmentally friendly.

                            I then added a double-dose of big box store mildewcide to the compound, which thinned it a bit, and then thickened it back to original consistancy by adding in some whiting (that George had sent along with it, knowing my plans).

                            I used a serrated spreader to apply the Kirby's Unleaded Bedding Compound --I used the basic WEST Epoxy spreader. Then, as I unrolled the canvas over the deck, into the bedding compound, I squeegied the canvas down into it with a flexible auto-body bondo spreader and stapled it around the edges, where it would be covered by the rubrails. I later replaced the staples with copper tacks, but the stapler was faster during the process.

                            The bedding compound did *not* threaten to dry too quickly. I would spread bedding onto a section of deck about 18" ahead of the canvas, roll out the canvas, squeegie it down (hard), staple it, and spread more canvas. The squeegie-ing puts a lot of tension into the canvas, because you're stretching it in a very localized area, and the friction of the bedding compound then holds all the tension you just squeegied into it. I didn't need to go crazy with the carpet pliers at all, just ooch in the last little bit at the rail. The bedding compound was great at *holding* tension on the canvas once I had it squeegied, too. I didn't need to RUSH around and set staples; everything stayed put once it was squeegied into the compound.

                            I did *not* then soak the canvas. As my guru for the process (Steve Smith, who used to run Beetle Cat Inc., and now restores catboats, and who has laid *A LOT* of canvas decks) pointed out, the bedding/squeegie-ing gets it very tight and smooth, and to over-tighten it will just start destroying the canvas threads by ripping them apart.

                            Perhaps the boiling water trick was developed for laid planking decks, to drive the planks together. My sloop has a cold-molded/veneer deck, so it doesn't need any further tightening.

                            However, once the canvas was down, I then saturated it with "piss-thin" paint (Kirby's, of course). Cut it at least 50% and "brush it on as if it's free." IIRC, it took about 1-1/2 *quarts* of thinned-down paint to fully saturate the new canvas of a 19' sloop. It takes a lot! Just keep brushing it on until it won't take any more.

                            If I understand correctly, what the paint-saturation does is mix the super-thin paint with the still-wet bedding compound and create a gradient of paint/compund from the deck all the way up through the canvas.

                            Remember that I said the bedding compound didn't dry too quickly? Once the canvas was saturated with paint, it took about three days to fully cure.

                            Only time will tell how well that system holds up, but after three years it looks awesome, and there isn't a hint of canvas distortion or bedding compound failure. If you're doing a bedded deck, I recommend it highly. Give George a call at Kirby's and remind him of the canvas bedding compound; he'll mix some up for you. Not much more expensive than paint, either, IIRC.

                            Alex

                            ETA:
                            Natural canvas set in Arabol, will rot!
                            When I went looking for it, before I spoke with George Kirby, I learned that Arabol isn't made any more.

                            Comment

                            • J.Madison
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 3976

                              #15
                              Re: Deck Canvassing: Wet or Dry?

                              Gannon and Benjamin claim that oil based paint rots canvas. They recommend liquid polyurethane from Vulkem or Gaco Western. Their write-up is in WB #260. Worth buying the digital copy for a couple bucks from our hosts.

                              Comment

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