Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,559

    Default Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Reviewed in WB's Professional Boatbuilder latest magazine issue here: http://digital.proboat.com/?issueID=35&pageID=51

    https://www.proboat.com/
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,778

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Links just took me to the magazine. Did you mean this?


    https://www.facebook.com/R2AK.TurnPo...58786277648160
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,559

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    That's it.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,559

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Does the escape hatch in the transom inspire confidence?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    346

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Its in the competition rules that its required if rolled and your inside the cabin.
    Crikey, easier to swim out the the companionway I reckon, but rules are rules

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    Its in the competition rules that its required if rolled and your inside the cabin.
    Crikey, easier to swim out the the companionway I reckon, but rules are rules
    OK, if in extremes, the claustrephobic crawl under the cockpit would be a way out. But like Mark, I would take my chances out the companionway.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,625

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    interesting no boom... wondering what the top sections of the sail look like...


    not exactly the most hospitable looking foredeck for sail handling at sea!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    45,816

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Looks to me like if the boat were capsized and stabile upside down, opening the main hatch would let you out and sink the boat. But it looks possible that the transom hatch would remain above water giving a way out without sinking the boat.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,625

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    interesting... I'm not convinced there's enough bouyancy in the ends of those side benches to lift the transom hatch clear... ? it would be cool to see a video of the hatch operation in action... even on a calm pond or lake.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    45,816

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    I agree with the skepticism. It's just too tempting to use some of that volume abaft the cabin for storage and it looks like it would need to be dead empty. I suppose as one crawls back one could move stuff forward, rather line an earthworm . . .

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,625

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    ugg a nightmare scenario... though I suppose it beats being stuck in a boat without an escape hatch!

    looks like a fun fast and pricey boat... is it really only 15'?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,481

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Hmmmm. The size and general concept is nice, but some of the details appear to be a little bit like throwing Formula One kit like wings, head leashes and fat tires onto a small campervan in the hope that they will make it go fast. The boomless rig and assy appear to be possibly problematic. The hull weight is similar to that of the Flying 15, which has a longer waterline length and could well be lighter in racing trim. The FF's rig is 25% smaller, but even in ideal conditions the FF never gets close to sailing angles high enough for an assy, much less a boomless main. One suspects there's going to be a lot of time reaching back and forth getting frustrated with the inability to sail low and close to course.

    Similarly, the Micro Cuppers and Elliott 5.9s (which are pretty comparable boats) don't sail high angles downwind, so they need booms. One also has to wonder what one could gain by leaving the boom off - after all, if you DO sail high angles downwind then you often only need an incredibly light and cheap boom, so they give superior sail shape at minimal cost. The Formula 18, Formula 16 and A Class cat guys use booms for a reason, even when they have wide travellers. Why not learn from them?

    The wingmast is very well proven - proven not to work on most small monos, that is. People have been trying them for decades, in Int Canoes, 18 Foot Skiffs, R Class, 12 Ft Skiffs, Merlins, Moths, yada yada yada. They've failed every time. They do work in some situations but those are pretty specific ones that are very different to this boat. Why not learn from those who have used them?

    And the Hobie 14 mast they are using is nothing like a true wing; it's 3.1 in wide and only 4.6 in long. What the Hobie mast does have is telegraph-pole rigidity that could make for terrible gust response, especially since the lack of a boom and vang means that loads on the mainsheet and traveller will be extremely high and therefore easy and swift adjustment will be problematic.

    And rotating becomes problematic anyway if one is trying to keep the jib tight - not such an issue on a cat where rig tension is intrinsically low and jibs are flat, but a significant issue on a mono. Performance cats also adjust the amount of rotation and it's a critical tool in handling different wind strengths; this boat seems to lack rotation control so how does one flatten the sail in strong winds? (EDIT - I got that wrong, there is a rotation spanner)

    The idea of a simple little boat is a great one. We've got a bunch of 18 foot trailerables of that concept nearby, and the Micro Cuppers of Europe are still doing well. It's just odd that they appear to have ignored the decades of proven development in the restricted-rig development classes and the Micros, in favour of ideas from boats of entirely different types. The Skiff, A Class, F18, NS14, Micro, MR and sportsboat guys aren't idiots, so why not learn from them?
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-08-2018 at 05:20 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    937

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat



    Well I like it.

    The boat is build able in anyone's garage. Probably kit able if small craft advisor are getting involved. Planing boats need fewer planks so are often an easier build. Spacious self draining cockpit, looks quite ergonomic and comfortable. No bulb under the boat, just centerboards so it will sit easy on a beach or mud. Twin centerboards will enhance heeled performance upwind. Good grip with twin rudders. It'll be fast in light air anything from a reach. Upwind you can see the wetted area reduction if you just heal it. The fully battened main will work well enough. Clew boards will control foot tension to wind speeds, which with the mainsheet traveller car should enable leach tension to be adjusted. I like that its shroudless, that would make the rig easier to live with off the boat. Probably the reason for the absence of the boom too: quick set up time.

    If people used these for dinghy cruising, they would be alot safer, have more fun and more able than the usual rotton old mirror!

    Anybody know how much water ballast? Interested to see a predicted AVS stability graph if it's got one too for intrest.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-08-2018 at 04:48 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    607

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The idea of a simple little boat is a great one. We've got a bunch of 18 foot trailerables of that concept nearby, and the Micro Cuppers of Europe are still doing well. It's just odd that they appear to have ignored the decades of proven development in the restricted-rig development classes and the Micros, in favour of ideas from boats of entirely different types. The Skiff, A Class, F18, NS14, Micro, MR and sportsboat guys aren't idiots, so why not learn from them?
    Yep. But whether it is too narrow a segment is the question.

    I suspect boats like the Core Sound mk3 might have better average distance covering speeds and greater rough water capability with reasonable accom. Less surface area for building tedium too.



    MIK

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post


    Well I like it.

    The boat is build able in anyone's garage. Probably kit able if small craft advisor are getting involved. Planing boats need fewer planks so are often an easier build. Spacious self draining cockpit, looks quite ergonomic and comfortable. No bulb under the boat, just centerboards so it will sit easy on a beach or mud. Twin centerboards will enhance heeled performance upwind. Good grip with twin rudders. It'll be fast in light air anything from a reach. Upwind you can see the wetted area reduction if you just heal it. The fully battened main will work well enough. Clew boards will control foot tension to wind speeds, which with the mainsheet traveller car should enable leach tension to be adjusted. I like that its shroudless, that would make the rig easier to live with off the boat. Probably the reason for the absence of the boom too: quick set up time.

    If people used these for dinghy cruising, they would be alot safer, have more fun and more able than the usual rotton old mirror!

    Anybody know how much water ballast? Interested to see a predicted AVS stability graph if it's got one too for intrest.
    Hi Edward,
    The boat now carries 250 lbs of water ballast in a central tank that is slightly forward of the mast step. The only time we carry water ballast is when sailing solo or with just my 9 yr old daughter aboard in that it makes the boat easier to right.... although it is incredibly stable and easy to right as it is. (We have yet to knock it down on accident--only during our capsize tests)

    The boat performs beyond our expectations right now and we have some perma-grins every time we have the chance to go out sailing in her. In any wind above 6 knots she easily gets out of displacement mode and surpasses hull speed. We have found that she likes to be sailed heeled and on her chine in light wind bellow 6 knots of wind strength ... but above 6 knots of wind, she likes to be sailed flat and fast. She also has no problem keeping speed up and tacking through 85 deg at hull speed although she is quicker upwind if you can sail her slightly lower and faster tacking through 100 deg and semi-planning if the conditions allow. Similar to a 505 or other performance dinghy.

    One of the design goals is to simplify the rig as much as possible while maintaining 98% of the performance that could be squeezed out of the sail plan. The builder could always opt to put a bendy mast, with spreaders, diamonds, boom, and three times the sail control lines on the boat if they want.... but only 5% of the sailors out there could use those sail controls to eeek out a little bit more performance from the boat, in just the right conditions. That would be at the cost of simplicity, construction cost, and capsize prevention in that the boyant mast prevents turtling. You also would only be able to tell the difference in performance with that rig if you had a fleet of them sailing against each other with top end performance sailors aboard who knew the boats intimately.
    The choice of a Hobie 16 wing mast for the standard build is to make it easy to source, bring the cost of entry down, simplify the rigging by doing away with spreaders/diamonds etc, and to add buoyancy through a sealed mast section to prevent the boat from going full turtle.

    Here is a picture of the boat ghosting along with her spinnaker.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by turnpoint; 06-06-2018 at 03:22 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Here is another picture of Skate on the beach during a recent father daughter camping trip. The girls sailed the boat all the way to the beach and then we rolled her up to the high tide line using some beach rollers from Duckworks. She weighs under 400lbs with the water ballast pumped out so this was pretty easy. That night the girls claimed the boat as theirs, sleeping in the large double berth under the cockpit, giggling, and watching bioluminescence through the back hatch as the small waves lapped up on the beach... the adults were relegated to camping ashore.
    20180606_102209.jpg.
    Last edited by turnpoint; 06-06-2018 at 04:32 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Houston, TX, US
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    It looks like it might be possible to add a small outboard mount, pull the center boards and rudders up and motor across shallow water. I am looking for a boat with this capability as where I live I have a section of shoal to cross to get to deeper water where I can go sailing.

    Will this boat be made available as plans or a kit eventually?

    Thanks, Dan

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,481

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by turnpoint View Post
    Hi Edward,
    The boat now carries 250 lbs of water ballast in a central tank that is slightly forward of the mast step. The only time we carry water ballast is when sailing solo or with just my 9 yr old daughter aboard in that it makes the boat easier to right.... although it is incredibly stable and easy to right as it is. (We have yet to knock it down on accident--only during our capsize tests)

    The boat performs beyond our expectations right now and we have some perma-grins every time we have the chance to go out sailing in her. In any wind above 6 knots she easily gets out of displacement mode and surpasses hull speed. We have found that she likes to be sailed heeled and on her chine in light wind bellow 6 knots of wind strength ... but above 6 knots of wind, she likes to be sailed flat and fast. She also has no problem keeping speed up and tacking through 85 deg at hull speed although she is quicker upwind if you can sail her slightly lower and faster tacking through 100 deg and semi-planning if the conditions allow. Similar to a 505 or other performance dinghy.

    One of the design goals is to simplify the rig as much as possible while maintaining 98% of the performance that could be squeezed out of the sail plan. The builder could always opt to put a bendy mast, with spreaders, diamonds, boom, and three times the sail control lines on the boat if they want.... but only 5% of the sailors out there could use those sail controls to eeek out a little bit more performance from the boat, in just the right conditions. That would be at the cost of simplicity, construction cost, and capsize prevention in that the boyant mast prevents turtling. You also would only be able to tell the difference in performance with that rig if you had a fleet of them sailing against each other with top end performance sailors aboard who knew the boats intimately.
    The choice of a Hobie 16 wing mast for the standard build is to make it easy to source, bring the cost of entry down, simplify the rigging by doing away with spreaders/diamonds etc, and to add buoyancy through a sealed mast section to prevent the boat from going full turtle.

    Here is a picture of the boat ghosting along with her spinnaker.
    I can understand the reasons you give here for the rig, although Laser sailors, Snipe sailors, F15 sailors, J/24 sailors, Enterprise sailors, windsurfer sailors and most other small mono racers can work out how to use a bendy rig. I raised the point because the Facebook page's claims that this is a "high performance rig" with modern features can seem to imply that looking modern and being fast, not practical, was the driving point behind the choice of mast and spinnaker design.

    Incidentally, boats like the 20ft International Flying 15 have very efficient rigs with a single set of spreaders, one cap shroud each side, no lower shrouds, no backstay, low rig tension, and a mast that is vastly lighter than a Hobie section, so it's not a choice between a simple Hobie mast and a complex bendy one - you can have simple bendy rigs.

    Personally I'm still unconvinced about the boomless rig and assy on a boat of this size if the intention is for high performance. Boats as fast as RS400s, Elliott 7s and J/109s can struggle to get the apparent wind forward fast enough for an assy to be efficient, and that's without the sheeting angle issues of a boomless main. If the intention is to get rid of a headknocker that's fine, but marketing it as a high-performance option implies that the guys who make Moths, Skiffs, 9ers, A Class cats, Merlins, Micros and Minis are making the wrong choice by using booms and that is extremely unlikely. They use booms because a simple alloy tube is an extremely efficient way to reduce mainsheet loads and maintain sail shape.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-14-2018 at 07:29 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    937

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Chris, when does the stopwatch start? You race from the start gun. A cruiser races from when he parks the car.

    An unstayed sprit rigged Oughtred Acorn skiff helped with a pair of oars, gets launched, up the river to Hurst castle about twice as fast as a sloop rigged Tammie Norrie, from a standing start in the car park with the boats on a trailer. I can point to my stayed rig, jib and luff length, but he wins that race on time elapsed by quite some margin. He just plops a rig up, grabs an oar and he's gone, while I'm still frigging with my rigging.

    Steps taken to reduce rigging time and trouble, with what can be a fraught process rigging bigger trailer sailers curbside, is well worth it. Its the principle reason trailer sailers get sold otherwise.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-14-2018 at 11:03 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St. Helens, Oregon
    Posts
    1,280

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    R2AK Candidate?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    1,295

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I can understand the reasons you give here for the rig, although Laser sailors, Snipe sailors, F15 sailors, J/24 sailors, Enterprise sailors, windsurfer sailors and most other small mono racers can work out how to use a bendy rig. I raised the point because the Facebook page's claims that this is a "high performance rig" with modern features can seem to imply that looking modern and being fast, not practical, was the driving point behind the choice of mast and spinnaker design.

    Incidentally, boats like the 20ft International Flying 15 have very efficient rigs with a single set of spreaders, one cap shroud each side, no lower shrouds, no backstay, low rig tension, and a mast that is vastly lighter than a Hobie section, so it's not a choice between a simple Hobie mast and a complex bendy one - you can have simple bendy rigs.

    Personally I'm still unconvinced about the boomless rig and assy on a boat of this size if the intention is for high performance. Boats as fast as RS400s, Elliott 7s and J/109s can struggle to get the apparent wind forward fast enough for an assy to be efficient, and that's without the sheeting angle issues of a boomless main. If the intention is to get rid of a headknocker that's fine, but marketing it as a high-performance option implies that the guys who make Moths, Skiffs, 9ers, A Class cats, Merlins, Micros and Minis are making the wrong choice by using booms and that is extremely unlikely. They use booms because a simple alloy tube is an extremely efficient way to reduce mainsheet loads and maintain sail shape.
    With you on the boom, mainsheet blocks for a Nacra 17 are 1400 US$1850 and this would come in similar I expect. I like to feel the wind which with all those bocks and friction might be tough. With the head of the sail above the top of the mast is it a Gunter rig?

    Boom apart for what it is I like, would have gone for racks rather than the trapeze. The racks could have incorporated a longer mainsheet traveler with a nice radius, engineering might be complex especially for towing.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    937

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Well...in 40 knots...the loading on the 'end boom' mainsheet is (40x40x15x0.021) = 504kg for a 15 sqm main. Thats assumig the boat doesn't heel, reef or has the sail is adjusted! With 6:1 that's a 84kg sheet load. Harken recommend swl to be double sheetload. 40mm carbo triple air blocks have swl 440kg and breaking load 850kg.

    Aft mainsheet halves the block and line loading requirement compared to a mid boom sheeted boat, neither are we needing to purchase outhaul or kicker blocks saving money: a kicker will cost about 150/ an outhaul 100 with Harken cascades.

    You can get a triple 40mm carbo with cleat plus the opposing triple combined for 145 together from Mailspeed marine outlet. 250 for a Harken car and track is offset by saving 250 on an outhaul and kicker. Its an intelligent rig for a trailer sailer.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-15-2018 at 10:43 AM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Hi Chris,
    I think you are comparing apples to oranges on this. The Skate has nearly twice the SA/Displacement of a Flying 15 and thus is going to be planing/semi planing a lot more of the time. One of the biggest reasons for the wing section in the design of the boat is to prevent the boat from going full turtle and to keep things simple. This is not an one design sailing dingy that is only designed to race around a windward/leeward course with support boats. It is setup for distance events and raids where safety is a critical factor and broad reaching is more of the norm. There is still enough mast bend to allow one to flatten the main using downhaul and mainsheet tension. Also, as it is a kit, the builder could opt to put the rig of their choice on it as long as they understood the compromises.


    In regards to going boomless, you could put a boom on it if you like.... but you will be seeing more and more of boomless mains in waters near you soon. It is very effective and does away with cost and complexity without any loss of efficiency on the right boat. I would not do this on a slower/ narrower boat that spends more time in displacement mode... it also requires a properly cut square head main that has a large traveler . Note that many of the top A-cats are now going boomless along with the latest Farrier designed tris that are at the top of the fleet. There is as much debate about this as there is many controversial topics in sailing (you can find it over at Sailing Anarchy if you want to get into that).
    Last edited by turnpoint; 06-15-2018 at 03:21 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Skate 15, kit 'sport' sailboat

    Here is a little video we made last week of her planing in moderate wind. Top speed was 10 knots that day with true wind of 11-14 knots.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc9qH_KwNQo

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •