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Thread: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

  1. #36
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    the Vacationer is around 20' the weekenders closer to 16'

  2. #37
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    the Vacationer is around 20' the weekenders closer to 16'
    I don't recall reading any impartial reviews of those in terms of sailing qualities.There seem to be two schools of thought,those who are happy to have built something that looks salty and those who think they are poor sailors with a very limiting stability curve.

    Is there nothing from the catalogue of Francois Vivier or our own John Welsford (designer of the Scamp) that would appeal more?

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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Last edited by Matt young; 05-02-2018 at 04:23 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    I have the feeling that with a few mods, like building a box keel which could hold water ballast and a smaller self bailing cockpit the weekender could be a very capable and fun little craft.

    Or, build a design that doesn't need sorting out to make it good.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    I like this PILGRIM boat!
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    I like this PILGRIM boat!
    That picture is not a Pilgrim it is a Rogue,

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/jw-rogue.htm

    The bench setup looks a tad strange to me, I don’t like getting that close and personal with my crew, unless it is in a blow and I want them to shield me from the spray. Not sure if putting a forward bench for the crew and then their weight up ther would affect the balance.

    Sounds like your getting more of an idea what you want.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Thanks for the correction Tink. I was looking at both the Rouge and the Pilgrim. Both good options. The Rouge for lighter weight and the Pilgrim for more stability.

    Pilgrim below.

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    [QUOTE=Daniel Noyes;5551388]I have the feeling that with a few mods, like building a box keel which could hold water ballast and a smaller self bailing cockpit the weekender could be a very capable and fun little craft.

    I really liked the video of this WEEKENDER smoking along on a beam reach! WOW>
    Makes the scamp look very slow like a duck bobbing around.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    I really liked the video of this WEEKENDER smoking along on a beam reach! WOW>
    Makes the scamp look very slow like a duck bobbing around.
    Scamp is a much faster boat than you seem to think. I've been aboard a Scamp that was outsailing a 21' Sea Pearl to windward.

    Tom
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    A simple Sharpie - maybe one of Raoul Parkers designs. http://www.parker-marine.com/
    They'd be relatively inexpensive to build and then you could beauty it up as far as your budget would allow.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    The speed of any boat of this type is constrained by physics. Any displacement boat will only reach 1.23 x SQ LWL (ft) > knots.

    If and how she reaches this speed will be controlled by sailarea, displacement, the foils, the form of the boat, the ability to use all her sail power - stability, and many other factors

    Ben Ainslie and Jimmy Spithill racing two scamps will not get a Scamp to go much over 4.2knots without the aid of waves.

    The Sea Pearl 21 is perhaps not the best boat to look at performance wise. Sail area wise it seams underpowered and the leeboard has always looked a tad small to me and will not be as effective as the Scamp’s relatively large foil deep under the boat.

    I have probably upset both the Scamp Camp and and Sea Pearl posse but I think when advise is sought we should try and represent facts

    Where LWL not known I have assumed and stated the length I have used

    Scamp LOA 11’ 11’ sail area 100 sq ft Hull speed 11’6” = 4.2 knots


    Sea Pearl 21’ sail area 136 sq ft Standard rig Hull speed 19’= 5.4 knots


    Weekender LOA 19’6” LOD 16” sail area 120 sq ft Hull speed 15’ 4.8 knots


    Pilgrim LOA 16’ 5” sail area 162 sq ft

  12. #47
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    The speed of any boat of this type is constrained by physics. Any displacement boat will only reach 1.23 x SQ LWL (ft) > knots.
    That's a good general rule (but it's 1.34 x square root of waterline), not an absolute speed limit. You can exceed hull speed to some extent in a displacement hull, it's just that the energy demands to do begin to rise very steeply around that "speed limit."

    So yes, a Sea Pearl is "faster" if you mean it has a higher theoretical hull speed. But so many other factors go into what "faster" means in real life--VMG, pointing ability, leeway, etc. There's also length/displacement and sail area/displacement to consider. Lots of factors.

    I'm not claiming Scamp is a racer, or that it's fast in any absolute sense, though. No sailboat is.

    Tom
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Yes 1.34 you are correct, coffee wasn’t working yet. There are many factors but water line length is a very good starting point. As I said the Scamps boards are good for VMG etc. I didn’t get into displacement as it is hard to compare with figures available on the net and in boats like this crew and gear are a significant part of the displacement.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    this boat does not cost $7,500.oo...


    I think it is more like 7.5million.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    The speed of any boat of this type is constrained by physics. Any displacement boat will only reach 1.23 x SQ LWL (ft) > knots.

    If and how she reaches this speed will be controlled by sailarea, displacement, the foils, the form of the boat, the ability to use all her sail power - stability, and many other factors

    Ben Ainslie and Jimmy Spithill racing two scamps will not get a Scamp to go much over 4.2knots without the aid of waves.

    The Sea Pearl 21 is perhaps not the best boat to look at performance wise. Sail area wise it seams underpowered and the leeboard has always looked a tad small to me and will not be as effective as the Scamp’s relatively large foil deep under the boat.

    I have probably upset both the Scamp Camp and and Sea Pearl posse but I think when advise is sought we should try and represent facts

    Where LWL not known I have assumed and stated the length I have used

    Scamp LOA 11’ 11’ sail area 100 sq ft Hull speed 11’6” = 4.2 knots


    Sea Pearl 21’ sail area 136 sq ft Standard rig Hull speed 19’= 5.4 knots


    Weekender LOA 19’6” LOD 16” sail area 120 sq ft Hull speed 15’ 4.8 knots


    Pilgrim LOA 16’ 5” sail area 162 sq ft
    Thanks TINK for working up those figures.
    The Scamp is cute but the weekender is a bit pretentious.
    I am thinking, which boat is safer in a rough sea?

    I was in my flat bottom steel 30' boat that got knocked down in a gust in SF bay, but a full keel boat also got
    knocked down at the same time. I saw its bulb keel come up out of the water!
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    The Scamp is cute but the weekender is a bit pretentious.
    I am thinking, which boat is safer in a rough sea?
    I wouldn't want to be in either in a rough sea. But if I had to I'd take my chances in a Scamp.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I wouldn't want to be in either in a rough sea. But if I had to I'd take my chances in a Scamp.
    +1

    I'm with you all the way on that one J.D. SCAMP ... unless the Weekender had the mods I mentioned above, and possibly beef up the Mast/ tabernackel arrangement... then I think I might give the WE the edge.


    But if the topic is "Best boat under $7,500 for extreme conditions" I'm not going with the Scamp or Weekender...


  18. #53
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    I want to build a small boat up to 15ft. Sail boat- wood.
    Maybe the diversion into 'Extreme' conditions isn't helpful.
    There's an interesting thread from a few years back about what makes a boat seaworthy - the upshot is; The skipper makes a boat seaworthy.

    If your sailing area is prone to sudden squalls, make sure the rig is easy to drop and you have a small motor that can push into the squall - reliably.
    If capsize is a real issue - then righting is the thing to think about.

    I'd suggest; Get a nice 15ft boat and then don't go out in conditions that are extreme or could turn extreme.
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Just checking out the Hartley thread, you could put a T16 together for under $7,500 - second hand rig and second hand trailer.
    Its one of the worlds most popular trailer sailors ever, there's bound to be a rotted out old one somewhere for $300 to pinch hardware etc.. off.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Just checking out the Hartley thread, you could put a T16 together for under $7,500 - second hand rig and second hand trailer.
    Its one of the worlds most popular trailer sailors ever, there's bound to be a rotted out old one somewhere for $300 to pinch hardware etc.. off.
    Yes, I liked the Hartley because it is a foot wider.
    But getting the plans seems difficult. I cannot even get a price, and some have said they waited for three months.
    Phils Bolgers Micro 15' is out because of the cost and set up to melt 421lbs. of lead!

    The Weekender needs no lead.

    I am looking at some of the Selway-Fischer designs.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    I have been considering the SCAMP.
    I have considered the WEEKENDER/
    Now I am looking at Glen L's Minuet.
    Hallo.

    My wife reckons that whatever boat I build must not look like a home built boat. She then add that there is nothing more embarrassing than a husband with an ugly home built boat.
    Glen L is not good at sailboat designs and their sailboats look terrible, no doubt with similar performance.
    The Weekender......don't bother. If you're going to spend months and months building something, at least build to a decent design.
    Good designs don't come cheap.

    Have fun.
    Frans.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Good call, I think Selway-Fisher is worth looking at. I like the externally bolted centerboards that don’t take up much interior room. Sandgrouse

    08AF5630-7B25-495F-8C42-84415DADB75A.gif

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    Yes, I liked the Hartley because it is a foot wider.
    But getting the plans seems difficult. I cannot even get a price, and some have said they waited for three months.
    Phils Bolgers Micro 15' is out because of the cost and set up to melt 421lbs. of lead!

    The Weekender needs no lead.

    I am looking at some of the Selway-Fischer designs.
    The Weekender needs 'Something' as it is not very stable and doesn't sail very well to windward. I would not go near it.

    Michelak (sp) does his versions of the Micro, without the lead keel. Uses bits of iron as ballast and a side dagger board.

    Hartleys and many of the S-F designs are proven performers, but take much longer to build, so more expensive.

    A while back on here, there was a build log of a S-F Coble in the US. Looked good and not tricky.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Hi Donald, back on boat building?

    You have the experience and skill, well go for it and make sure you post a thread to show progress.

    Cya
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    Hi Donald, back on boat building?

    You have the experience and skill, well go for it and make sure you post a thread to show progress.

    Cya
    Thanks Sailcanoe fan!

    Did you finish that Conoe model?
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    The Weekender needs 'Something' as it is not very stable and doesn't sail very well to windward. I would not go near it.

    Michelak (sp) does his versions of the Micro, without the lead keel. Uses bits of iron as ballast and a side dagger board.

    Hartleys and many of the S-F designs are proven performers, but take much longer to build, so more expensive.

    A while back on here, there was a build log of a S-F Coble in the US. Looked good and not tricky.
    I will go back and look at some of those Michelak designs.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    The Weekender needs 'Something' as it is not very stable and doesn't sail very well to windward. I would not go near it.

    Michelak (sp) does his versions of the Micro, without the lead keel. Uses bits of iron as ballast and a side dagger board.

    Hartleys and many of the S-F designs are proven performers, but take much longer to build, so more expensive.

    A while back on here, there was a build log of a S-F Coble in the US. Looked good and not tricky.
    Gentlemen do not sail to windward.


    actually Weekender is a boat which has interested me more and more over the past 5+- years, espically since helping a friend build a West Mersa Ducking Punt, a sort of traditional boat from the English broads used for hunting, paddling, and a little light hearted sail boat racing.

    this boat, like the Weekender is a hard chine hull with out a centerboard or even any lateral plane in the form of a keel...




    the punt is a "Simple" design but I have found the duck punt takes some real sailing skills to sail well... I wonder if the Weekender may be a similar scenario.

    certainly a shallow hull with limited lateral plane will require a light hand on the helm and a fairly advanced knowledge of how to get the best out of boat and rig to perform well.

  28. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Gentlemen do not sail to windward.


    actually Weekender is a boat which has interested me more and more over the past 5+- years, espically since helping a friend build a West Mersa Ducking Punt, a sort of traditional boat from the English broads used for hunting, paddling, and a little light hearted sail boat racing.

    this boat, like the Weekender is a hard chine hull with out a centerboard or even any lateral plane in the form of a keel...




    the punt is a "Simple" design but I have found the duck punt takes some real sailing skills to sail well... I wonder if the Weekender may be a similar scenario.

    certainly a shallow hull with limited lateral plane will require a light hand on the helm and a fairly advanced knowledge of how to get the best out of boat and rig to perform well.

    The leeway resistance of the punt quite amazes me. I was helping a stunt catamaran in on Sunday. For those unfamiliar with a Stunt it is a 13.6ft foiling catamaran. The Stunt has a slightly curved bottom and certainly doesn’t present a hard chine to the water but it must present some lateral area. The helm had less than 6 inches of board down and the cat made no visible leeway. As soon as he lifted the board the cat shot sideways making less than 45 degrees.

    The point being not only how efficient modern foils are but also how effectively the punt works



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  29. #64
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Look for ARGIE 15! It's a simple 3 in 1 day cruiser !

  30. #65
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Have you considered commissioning Eric Hvalsoe to build one for you? That will definitely not cost $7500...
    Now is a good time!


    Steward of MAKOTO [WB Magazine #232], and Honored Member of the LPBC

  31. #66
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    This boat cost $280 (entry fee for the contest) and only took 2 hours to build!

    Edge screwed 3/8 ply, with no chine logs... who woulda thunk.. The trick to this was to mark the hole locations on the bottom and the sides, then drill them separately using a tapered bit. If you don't drill the edge of the ply (right into the center ply of the three ply) then the screws will split the wood, and it will not hold together.





    The hull twist was caused by the port side being slightly longer than the starboard side, and/or not properly placing the hull sides on the bottom.. note that for next time!..put the sides together to make sure they are exact mirrors, and mark the center on them and the bottom (they go on from the center, so placing them in the right place on the bottom is critical)!





    Dan, the designer and one of the (paddlers on the right)...Tom, the other designer and paddler sitting down.





    Dan and Tom paddling for first in the first heat.





    The Master Carpenter award.


    Now is a good time!


    Steward of MAKOTO [WB Magazine #232], and Honored Member of the LPBC

  32. #67
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    I am not sure I get this type of competition. I am sure they are great fun to compete in. But unless you are using 100% recycled material and not adding 10 rolls of duck tape they seem to pay a big environmental price. Using virgin wood (even lumber hard stuff) and then a build method that will not produce a craft with any robustness also goes against the grain. Maybe I’m just missing something

  33. #68
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    Thanks Sailcanoe fan!

    Did you finish that Conoe model?
    Yes Donald, canoe model (Redbird) is finish for few years now. Looks nice!!!
    Meanwhile I started building a model of my 19 ft Cruising Sailboat from DN Goodchild (about 54 inch long x 7.5 inch wide) but I haven't touch it for 2 years now. no progress.

    For the last 2 summers I've bveen sailing my Sailboat. I can tell you that she is very stable and pleasant to sail, the choice was right!!!

    I think you should build a small boat, no cabin with only one sail (mainsail), this should reduce the cost $$$$.
    However do not hesitate in choosing the right good epoxy, that is West System. Use stainless steel screews (or silicon bronze, better).
    My sailboat runs well with a 2.5 Yamaha outboard, 8 km/hre at half throttle. I get 1 1/2 hre running at this speed before refuelling (.9 liter full tank !) Economy of $$$.

    Cya
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    building plans... $55.oo


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    Default Re: I want to build a boat that does not cost $7,500

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    building plans... $55.oo

    Daniel would you point me towards the source of those plans, that looks worth a closer look.
    Thanks.

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