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Thread: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    In Kent? The home of UKIP and not so closet casual racism.
    Kent? What would I know about Kent? It's on the other side of the Queen Elizabeth bridge, for Heaven's sake! We Essex girls have no truck with Kent. But at least they didn't actually elect Nige, so I give them credit for that.
    "Mozart is the heart's touchstone" (Edwin Fischer)

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    Kent? What would I know about Kent? It's on the other side of the Queen Elizabeth bridge, for Heaven's sake! We Essex girls have no truck with Kent. But at least they didn't actually elect Nige, so I give them credit for that.
    Hmm? Essex girls? I still have relatives in Kent, so I know about the not so closet casual racism.
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    I am sorry if you have lived your life under a rock for the last few years; I assumed that the expression "SJW" would be widely understood, at least among English speakers. As it happens, I used the term as a neutral descriptor, not as a pejorative one, although you are certainly correct if you discern a penumbra of criticism towards such people in my earlier comment.

    As far as ad homs go, vitriolic or otherwise, I'll leave those to you.

    Incidentally, I was under the impression that this forum was intended for debate rather than ingratiation.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    A lot of people live in Kent, including Bob Geldof; a quick glance at Wikipedia (for what it's worth) suggests a figure of just under 2 million. Residency there, you may be surprised to learn, is not restricted to members or supporters of UKIP.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    I am sorry if you have lived your life under a rock for the last few years; I assumed that the expression "SJW" would be widely understood, at least among English speakers. As it happens, I used the term as a neutral descriptor, not as a pejorative one, although you are certainly correct if you discern a penumbra of criticism towards such people in my earlier comment.

    As far as ad homs go, vitriolic or otherwise, I'll leave those to you.

    Incidentally, I was under the impression that this forum was intended for debate rather than ingratiation.
    If you think SJW is a neutral descriptor, you've been living under a rock for more than ten years.

    As for the purpose of the forum, it's for discussing wooden boats. Tell us about yours, it will humanize you and help you gain acceptance. If, that is, you want to have the kind of acceptance that makes it easier to have a polite discussion. Some who come here prefer to troll, and if that's your wish, feel free to disregard my advice.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    A lot of people live in Kent, including Bob Geldof; a quick glance at Wikipedia (for what it's worth) suggests a figure of just under 2 million. Residency there, you may be surprised to learn, is not restricted to members or supporters of UKIP.
    Do you remember this?

    I spent 13 years living in Margate, still have an aunt living at Broadstairs, who casually commented of a pedestrian we passed "He has been out in the sun too long".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    I am here to discuss Jordan Peterson, since that is the topic of this thread.

    I intuited the definition of the acronym "SJW" from its usage in real life rather than from the eminent lexicographers of Wikipedia.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Reminds me of SB.
    "Worse than all this, there's no room for even tepid dissent. Criticise the left and you're labelled a fascist, a toady of the alt-right. Dare to criticise the extremes of Islam and you're branded an Islamophobe. Question LGBT+ politics and you're a homophobe; refuse to use gender neutral pronouns and you're a transphobe.Western society, he suggests, has turned against men. "We are playing very foolish games in the West," he warns in one YouTube video. "And we could bring the house down around us." When a young German interviewer informs Peterson one of her professors recommends not having a child to reduce her carbon footprint, Peterson cracks, "Tell him he can save the planet by jumping off a cliff." In another video, he fumes that "the radical left has never taken responsibility for being on the same side as the Stalinists, Maoists and Cambodian murderers. At least the Germans apologised: 'Sorry about the Nazis.' "
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    I am assuming that your aunt is a lady of a certain generation. If you overheard casual conversations in, say, Urdu or Hausa (and understood them), you might encounter some less than complimentary remarks about white Europeans. For good or ill, that's human nature.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    In the context of this forum I might add: Make even mildly critical comments about SJWs and you will be accused of trolling and subjected to patronising little lectures about the supposedly therapeutic properties of wooden boats. The rot goes deep!

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    So... I ask this...

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Cool.

    So give us some of each. What are some specific critiques you'd offer of his work, as a whole? And what about his work is of value (deserves better)? Perhaps I've missed something...
    After some snark from our new BilgeRat, and no response to my query, John asks this...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    If you think SJW is a neutral descriptor, you've been living under a rock for more than ten years.

    As for the purpose of the forum, it's for discussing wooden boats. Tell us about yours, it will humanize you and help you gain acceptance. If, that is, you want to have the kind of acceptance that makes it easier to have a polite discussion. Some who come here prefer to troll, and if that's your wish, feel free to disregard my advice.
    And... we get this in reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    In the context of this forum I might add: Make even mildly critical comments about SJWs and you will be accused of trolling and subjected to patronising little lectures about the supposedly therapeutic properties of wooden boats. The rot goes deep!
    It appears we've been infected with a mild outbreak of JAFT.

    <or maybe a SkyBlooie sockpuppet... the similarities are eerie>
    David G
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Dem sox needs washin. Peeeyoooo.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    You have me genuinely puzzled. I am neither a troll nor a sock-puppet, but just someone who thought (and still thinks) that the TLS article about Jordan Peterson was both inaccurate, uncharitable and unremittingly hostile. (Despite a brief search, I am none the wiser as to who or what JAFT might be.)

    I could offer some of my own criticisms of Jordan Peterson:

    1) Relying on memory and apparently speaking without notes, he is often cavalier about verifiable facts (such as dates);

    2) Despite his brilliance as a lecturer/public speaker, a debater and an interviewee he is a pedestrian and often clumsy writer (although, as I have elsewhere noted, there are occasional bravura flashes);

    3) His analysis of economics is surpringly underdeveloped for someone who was once an activist for a socialist political movement, and tends (by default) towards an acceptance of the current status quo;

    4) Despite his patently sincere warnings against what he terms "ideological possession" there is something disturbingly cult-like both in the mass meetings he regularly addresses and in the "self-authoring" material he prepares and markets. (At least in the former instance, I am sure that the irony is not altogether lost on him.)

    5) As with any philosophy that focuses on the what we might term the personal redemption of the individual, there is a concurrent danger of political quietism and over-ready acceptance of the existing social (and, as noted above, economic) order. Must we *really* have set our own houses entirely in order before we can criticise others, or society as a whole? This seems to be partly a counsel of perfection (for the individual concerned) and partly a recipe for postponing social criticism, possibly indefinitely, or at least until it is too late for such criticism to make a positive difference.

    I hold the above criticisms to be valid, and yet I also believe that - on balance - Jordan Peterson is a force for the good. I hope that his lectures, books, etc., will attract serious commentary, criticism and analysis, and not merely the kind of panicked would-be demolition jobs that have appeared so far.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    In the context of this forum I might add: Make even mildly critical comments about SJWs and you will be accused of trolling and subjected to patronising little lectures about the supposedly therapeutic properties of wooden boats. The rot goes deep!
    My heavens, a patronizing lecture about patronizing lectures. Not terribly self-aware, are you?

    Unlike Tom, who has actually advocated for Peterson's views, all you've done on this thread is criticize those who criticize Peterson. It would appear that you are not here to discuss Peterson's beliefs, only to criticize those you consider 'social justice warriors.'

    Because, you know, fighting for social justice is such a terrible thing to do.

    By the way, no one has said a word about the 'supposedly therapeutic properties of wooden boats.' You speculated on the purpose of the forum, and I informed you. This forum is hosted by WoodenBoat Magazine, and would not exist without them. While most of the posts are in the Bilge, most of the views are of boat-related threads on the rest of the forum. If you're not interested in wooden boats, well and good, but it is not really honest to speculate about the purpose of the forum and then complain when it's explained to you.

    But if you're just here to complain about Peterson's critics and whine about the people who don't agree with you, that's fine, please proceed.

    Edited to add:

    I see while I was writing this you offered some criticism of Peterson. What I would like to know is what contribution he's making. After all, it's not that hard to find people who criticize him.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Perhaps you and David G would care to proffer, for the undoubted edification of all, the towering intellectual edifices that you yourselves have erected. Go on, don't be shy! If Jordan Peterson, a mere tenured professor at the University of Toronto (who must have bluffed his way, earlier on, into a similar job at Harvard), can pull the wool over our eyes, you eminent scholars and fearless truth-tellers must make it your public duty to undeceive us.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    And now a patronising lecture about a supposedly patronising lecture about a genuinely patronising lecture. Wooden boats? I feel as though I've stumbled into a hall of distorting mirrors!

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    Perhaps you and David G would care to proffer, for the undoubted edification of all, the towering intellectual edifices that you yourselves have erected. Go on, don't be shy! If Jordan Peterson, a mere tenured professor at the University of Toronto (who must have bluffed his way, earlier on, into a similar job at Harvard), can pull the wool over our eyes, you eminent scholars and fearless truth-tellers must make it your public duty to undeceive us.
    So, you decline to tell us what's good about Peterson? If you can't do that, why are you even talking about him?

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    And now a patronising lecture about a supposedly patronising lecture about a genuinely patronising lecture. Wooden boats? I feel as though I've stumbled into a hall of distorting mirrors!
    Keep spinning, maybe that will help you get your balance.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    Perhaps you and David G would care to proffer, for the undoubted edification of all, the towering intellectual edifices that you yourselves have erected. Go on, don't be shy! If Jordan Peterson, a mere tenured professor at the University of Toronto (who must have bluffed his way, earlier on, into a similar job at Harvard), can pull the wool over our eyes, you eminent scholars and fearless truth-tellers must make it your public duty to undeceive us.
    I'm sure we'd all be edified by David's papers on economic history from grad school, but he started the thread to learn about Jordan Peterson. Since you like Peterson, why not tell us what's best about his thinking?

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Why shouldn't I criticise those who criticise Peterson if I think that they are wrong?

    Peterson's positive doctrines are complex and consequently resistant to easy summary. I will attempt to list briefly some of them:

    1) He has persuaded lifelong atheists (such as myself) that religious myths are not merely the result of ignorant or outmoded (specifically, pre-scientific) ways of viewing and interpreting the world, but the outward signs of forces operating enduringly on, and within, the human mind (cf. Jung);

    2) He has (at least partly) rehabilitated figures such as Freud, Jung and Nietzsche, whom I am sure I was not alone in previously dismissing as cranks and/or demagogues (although I continue to entertain grave reservations about them);

    3) He has also thrown a spotlight on to figures such as Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn, Frankl and (for a North American audience) Orwell (the last of whom is rightly revered in my native UK).

    He is bound to have come into conflict with the votaries of Identity Politics, since such people promote what Peterson regards (rightly, I think) as an extreme form of social constructionism with a concomitant denial of innate biological and temperamental differences between the sexes, and of the very existence of a commonly-shared human nature.

    Although I share Peterson's disdain for, and justified anxiety about, Postmodernism, I would not regard the Ayn Rand disciple Steven Hicks to be a wholly dependable critic of this intellectual (and social) movement. It says a great deal for its hardihood and tenacity, at least in organisational terms, that it has withstood what should have been the devastating critiques of Alan Sokal almost a quarter of a century ago. Nevertheless, any body of thought that promotes a radical relativism and attempts to weaken any strong notions of the possibility of objective truth must be seen as intellectually (and, ultimately, morally and socioculturally) pernicious.

    Peterson was consequently correct, I believe, in drawing public attention to the sinister implications of Bill C-16 for the freedom of thought, enquiry and public expression, legislation that was directly inspired by Identity Politics.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    That sounds good! What does it mean?

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Oh, on the debit side, I could regret the unapologetic middlebrowism (or even lowbrowism) of a lot of Peterson's cultural preoccupations. The Lion King? Harry Potter? But I suppose he knows the reference points of his undergraduates.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    Oh, on the debit side, I could regret the unapologetic middlebrowism (or even lowbrowism) of a lot of Peterson's cultural preoccupations. The Lion King? Harry Potter? But I suppose he knows the reference points of his undergraduates.
    How condescending of you.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    Why shouldn't I criticise those who criticise Peterson if I think that they are wrong?

    Peterson's positive doctrines are complex and consequently resistant to easy summary. I will attempt to list briefly some of them:

    1) He has persuaded lifelong atheists (such as myself) that religious myths are not merely the result of ignorant or outmoded (specifically, pre-scientific) ways of viewing and interpreting the world, but the outward signs of forces operating enduringly on, and within, the human mind (cf. Jung);

    2) He has (at least partly) rehabilitated figures such as Freud, Jung and Nietzsche, whom I am sure I was not alone in previously dismissing as cranks and/or demagogues (although I continue to entertain grave reservations about them);

    3) He has also thrown a spotlight on to figures such as Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn, Frankl and (for a North American audience) Orwell (the last of whom is rightly revered in my native UK).

    He is bound to have come into conflict with the votaries of Identity Politics, since such people promote what Peterson regards (rightly, I think) as an extreme form of social constructionism with a concomitant denial of innate biological and temperamental differences between the sexes, and of the very existence of a commonly-shared human nature.

    Although I share Peterson's disdain for, and justified anxiety about, Postmodernism, I would not regard the Ayn Rand disciple Steven Hicks to be a wholly dependable critic of this intellectual (and social) movement. It says a great deal for its hardihood and tenacity, at least in organisational terms, that it has withstood what should have been the devastating critiques of Alan Sokal almost a quarter of a century ago. Nevertheless, any body of thought that promotes a radical relativism and attempts to weaken any strong notions of the possibility of objective truth must be seen as intellectually (and, ultimately, morally and socioculturally) pernicious.

    Peterson was consequently correct, I believe, in drawing public attention to the sinister implications of Bill C-16 for the freedom of thought, enquiry and public expression, legislation that was directly inspired by Identity Politics.
    Well, those sound like good things to say, although not at all original. I'm sure there's a bit more depth to it than you can get into in a forum post. I own a bookstore, by the way, and I can tell you that the authors you say he's thrown a spotlight on have been popular and well-regarded here much longer than Peterson has been on the scene.

    Atheists, who are a relatively small group of people, are about the only ones in our culture who typically don't see the value of religious myths, or see them as having negative value. Certainly explaining the value of myth to atheists is a good thing, and perhaps the way he does it is more accessible than the way others, such as Jung, have been doing it for decades.

    I had hoped to learn of something that would be new to me, but there is certainly value in being able to teach things that a lot of people don't currently understand.

    The hate speech aspects of C-16 would be unconstitutional in the U.S., by the way.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    OK, another one for the ignore list. Bye bye.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    It'll involve a serious investment of time, but - if you were able to spare it - you should watch, in their entirety, the following lecture series, posted on YouTube:

    1) Maps of Meaning (2017);

    2) Personality and Its Transformations (2017);

    3) Biblical Series (The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories) (2017-).

    To gain some insight into Peterson's quarrels with Identity Politics, the three numbered parts of "Professor Against Political Correctness" should be watched, along with the unedited footage of Peterson's (and his lawyer's) testimony to the Canadian Senate regarding C-16.

    I was hoping, before I read them, that Peterson's two published books, "Maps of Meaning" (1998) and "12 Rules for Life" (2018), would be, at least in part, digests or distillations of the ideas presented in his lectures, but they are (on the whole) not. The former sprawls (and gropes) while the latter (although not, by the usual standards, a short book) both simplifies and omits while also tending to repetition. For the time being, at least, he is at his best in his lectures.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    It'll involve a serious investment of time, but - if you were able to spare it - you should watch, in their entirety, the following lecture series, posted on YouTube
    <snort>
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Like the poor, the weak in mind are always with us.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    aye 'tis a tragedy
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    aye 'tis a tragedy
    'Tis, verily and in sooth!

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayyam1048 View Post
    'Tis, verily and in sooth!
    so? is that you sky?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    so? is that you sky?
    You wish! Hell, maybe I wish.

    The early returns are that Khayyam 1048 is going to be a very hard swallow for the usual suspects.

    Looking forward to more from this interesting new member!

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Just another red with a thesaurus.

    LMAO
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Just another red with a thesaurus.

    LMAO

    don't worry john, you're dunning kruger in chief title is secure.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Who knows the work of Jordan Peterson, psychologist?

    Sweet Mother of God reds are Stupid.

    LMAO
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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