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Thread: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

  1. #1
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    Default 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    The Alberta Advantage? (Not So Fast)

    Tar sands/oil sands bitumen may have a unique market portal. Under the now-disgraced executives, PetroChina enacted plans to significantly scale up construction of special coker units at some of its refineries, designed to process the heaviest, high-sulphur oils into finished products like gasoline, diesel, and jet and ship fuel.That may be good news for Alberta. The bad news is that those coker units, like their counterparts in the U.S., India, and Saudi Arabia, inherently produce vast tonnages of carbonized crud called petcoke. When it’s burned, it has less heat value than coal, yet emits even more greenhouse gases. But these refinery dregs are dirt cheap. So they’re sold to cement kilns, coal generating plants, or glass, steel, and ceramic factories.Petcoke has by far the dirtiest chemical signature of any combustible oil derivative. When it’s burned, it emits 11% more GHGs per unit of energy than coal, and almost twice as much as natural gas. It also releases more toxic heavy metals such as cadmium, mercury, arsenic, chromium and nickel, carcinogens, and higher amounts of smog pollutants compared to coal.Yet there’s a largely hidden, global trade in petcoke. Refineries in America have trouble selling it at home, due to stiffer air quality regulations, and current or pending limits on greenhouse gas emissions. So in 2017, they shipped 213 million barrels of petcoke abroad, to industries in developing countries like India, China, Brazil, and Mexico seeking any competitive edge with no questions asked.
    http://theenergymix.com/2018/04/10/e...itumen-bubble/
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Trudeau had a meet with BC premier Horgan and Alberta premier Notley on Sunday. Trudeau apparently committed the full weight of the federal government to push the Kinder Morgan Transmountain pipeline from Alberta to Vancouver and Horgan reiterated BC will do everything it can to stop it. I side with Horgan. If Trudeau would push for electric cars as hard as he's pushing for pipelines the world is better off without we could all be plugging in our cars in instead of filling up the tanks. And Alberta could still be digging up as much of their garbage bitumen as they have been all along.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Poison!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Tough situation to be in, for all 3 sides. Ain't nobody gonna win without cost to someone, and no compromise that won't hurt everybody.

    My pet solution would be to invest the pipeline money in a refinery adjacent to the tar sands (it is already a moonscape and stinky as ol' get-out), and sell the product in-country to citizen benefit, and use the heavy byproduct to make asphalt to drive our cars on. Maybe use ground-up fiberglass boats as structural strengthening in the asphalt. But that's just me, tweaking an internet forum for sh**s and giggles...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    I think we are unable to refine that **** cheaply enough to be even close to competitive.

    I would use the money to harvest the enormous amounts of free clean energy produced in the myriad tidal rips on this coast. Big barges with massive slow turning paddle wheels pose no threat to the environment. There would be the need for transmission lines, but those lines will never destroy everything in the vicinity with bitumen. It can be done, but there's a lack of will.

    If we switched to electric cars we would need to generate more electricity. The site C dam(n) would be necessary, among others, but not if we let the tides do the job.

    It's so bloody obvious it makes me sick that it's being ignored.

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post

    and use the heavy byproduct to make asphalt to drive our cars on. Maybe use ground-up fiberglass boats as structural strengthening in the asphalt.
    Or used ground up tires to the same effect. It's been done, and it adds durability, traction and absorbs the sound of tires on the surface. I was visiting someone once who lived close to a section of road done with the ground tires. At night, when there was less traffic, I could hear trailer trucks approaching on the traditional mix and then go silent when they hit the new stuff.

    I don't know if petcoke can be used to produce asphalt though.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Tough situation to be in, for all 3 sides. Ain't nobody gonna win without cost to someone, and no compromise that won't hurt everybody.

    My pet solution would be to invest the pipeline money in a refinery adjacent to the tar sands (it is already a moonscape and stinky as ol' get-out), and sell the product in-country to citizen benefit, and use the heavy byproduct to make asphalt to drive our cars on. Maybe use ground-up fiberglass boats as structural strengthening in the asphalt. But that's just me, tweaking an internet forum for sh**s and giggles...
    I'm assuming part of the national plan is to sell it countries with cheap manufacturing such as India and China for balance of trade reasons. They get the bitumen, we get whatever they can manufacture with it. If we sell it to ourselves we don't get that. Or something like that. I've also read (and posted) that China and India have added to their bitumen refining capacity in the last few years so now that they've sunk money into refining they're more willing to take it. Maybe.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Better to put it back in the hole than sell it to those who would help destroy the environment with it.

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Why sell the bitumen / oil outside of Canada at all ? We will need that for ourselves ... surely we can refine it and be the envy of the world by being self - sufficient in oil for many years rather than sell it off as fast as possible to our economic rivals .

    Canada doesn't need oil revenue to have a healthy economy especially at the current very low taxation rate , the last figures i saw were about 1/4 of the Norwegian rate .

    One source of world wide oil consumption rates says that in about 53 years all the earths proven oil reserves will be gone .
    If growth is good then how much is enough

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    What percentage of that do you think will be on our beaches?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    ^ Vanishingly small, even if there is a major spill. That's not to say that the damage wouldn't be all out of proportion to the percentage amount, though.

    I agree with Three Cedars, BTW...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Three Cedars View Post
    Why sell the bitumen / oil outside of Canada at all ? We will need that for ourselves ... surely we can refine it and be the envy of the world by being self - sufficient in oil for many years rather than sell it off as fast as possible to our economic rivals .

    Canada doesn't need oil revenue to have a healthy economy especially at the current very low taxation rate , the last figures i saw were about 1/4 of the Norwegian rate .

    One source of world wide oil consumption rates says that in about 53 years all the earths proven oil reserves will be gone .
    This has been my opinion for several years.
    I heard an oil executive say that the idea didn't fit their business/profit model.
    End Of Story.
    R
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Global trade, folks. If we don't sell it to other countries then we can't buy what they have and we want from them.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Global trade, folks. If we don't sell it to other countries then we can't buy what they have and we want from them.
    What do they have that we can't make ourselves ?
    If growth is good then how much is enough

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Three Cedars View Post
    What do they have that we can't make ourselves ?
    $1.50/ hour minimum wage?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    $1.50/ hour minimum wage?
    Xactly... But the economics of international trade with a commodity like oil isn't something I know much about. The bitumen is in Canadian soil, but the rights to it are sold for royalties by the government, many of the corporations doing the extraction aren't Canadian and the US dollar is still widely used for petro transactions, yes/no? The simple picture of international trade is that each country sells on the world market that which they can do better or cheaper than everyone else. That way, theoretically, everyone gets the best and cheapest from the global market. Win/win. So if India pays workers a buck an hour to make something we pay workers $20 an hour to make its impoverishing ourselves not to just trade some bitumen, which we have, for the cheap cheap cheap labour they have. The tar sands and various supporting economic activity employ a lot of Canadians in high paying jobs, tens of times higher than India or China pays their manufacturing labour. A lot of the tar sands wealth goes to the companies, many not Canadian, that dig it up but Canadian employees of those Multinational oil companies can buy a lot of Chinese goods with those wages.
    Last edited by JimD; 04-16-2018 at 08:27 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    We don't have to trade with China or India .. it was greedy business owners that sold out their own workers by shipping manufacturing jobs overseas and the government of the day let them . How this was supposed to be good for the Canadian economy escapes me and it wasn't inevitable or necessary .
    If growth is good then how much is enough

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 'Petcoke' and tar sands bitumen.

    Elizabeth May, one of the few intelligent voices in federal politics on this issue, would also rather see a refinery built in Alberta. https://www.facebook.com/huffpostcap...l4EaD5uEhfeCno
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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