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Thread: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

  1. #1
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    Default Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Vermont republican governor Phil Scot just signed new gun legislation a few days ago. Ban on bump stocks. Ban on clips bigger then 10 rounds for rifles, 15 rounds for handguns. Raised the age to purchase any gun to 21. Tightened up backround checks to include private sales. Private sellers must go to a licensed gun dealer to conduct a backround check on buyer. This kills the gun show loophole.
    In a state where his re-election is in Nov., he had to make a deal with democrats. GOP and gun nuts are howling and want his head on a platter.
    Anyone owning large capacity clips are grandfathered, so you can keep them. In the hours before the bill was signed on the state house lawn, a gun manufacturer handed out 1000 high capacity clips for free ( which would fall under the grandfather clause).
    Throughout his speech at the signing, gun nuts ranted and raved, constantly heckling him.
    I see little to complain about in these regulations. Of course, I'm not a gun nut...
    Scot is gambling that Republicans will cool down by Nov. and still vote for him and is hoping that Democrats will be impressed with a reasonable man and vote for him.
    Almost makes me want to vote for him, too.
    Whether this makes any difference in gun violence is up to debate, but at least the guy doesn't knuckle under to the NRA and lick their boots like the majority of the GOP.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    If a high-capacity magazine nut gets one of those free magazines jammed in his mouth crosswise, does it make a whistling sound? How'bout up the other end, where the sun doesn't shine, passing wind?

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    The new laws would seem much more "common sense" if they contained a sunset provision. Say, if there is no measurable effect of the law after 2-5 years, it ceases to be. If it can be shown to keep people safer, it would be hard for the most rabid gun nut to attack it. If, on the other hand, it is shown to have no discernible effect, similarly, it would be hard for the most ardent gun control proponent to defend it. In either case it would help focus the debate on harm reduction, where it should be, rather than on particular guns.
    How does that sound?

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Vermont has always had a fierce independent stripe coupled with an above average dose of common sense. Practical and resourceful people, those Vermont Yankees.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Woodward View Post
    Vermont has always had a fierce independent stripe coupled with an above average dose of common sense. Practical and resourceful people, those Vermont Yankees.
    This is true. The gun laws here are very loose. I don't even know if you need a permit own a pistol. We have both open and concealed carry, yet you never see anyone strutting around with a pistol on their hip or a rifle over their shoulder while shopping in Walmart. Common sense reigns.
    The magazine clip size is interesting. You get caught by the game warden hunting with anything bigger then a 6-shot clip and you're in big trouble. Otherwise, up until now, you could have the biggest clip you could find. Animals in the woods have more protection against insane shooters then people.

    The governor was rattled by an incident in the state a few days after the Parkland shooting in Florida. State troopers, acting on a tip about an 18 year old student wanting to "shoot up his school", went to the student's house and found an arsenal of weapons. Troopers hauled the student away in handcuffs, but it made big news around the state.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    If a high-capacity magazine nut gets one of those free magazines jammed in his mouth crosswise, does it make a whistling sound? How'bout up the other end, where the sun doesn't shine, passing wind?
    Depends. If the clip is empty, it gives off a high pitched whistle. If loaded, it's down an octave or so.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Depends. If the clip is empty, it gives off a high pitched whistle. If loaded, it's down an octave or so.
    New definition for "Magazine in the bathroom"?

    Seriously, this is a good bill. I do not see why anybody but the ammosexuals would have an issue with it. It grandfathers in everything already out there, does not force registrations on existing guns, and nobody is losing their weapons. This, like most Vermonters, is a good commonsense law
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    If I was a terrorist, wanting to kill massive numbers of Americans, I would open a gun store.

    Mission accomplished, and make a bunch of money for the cause to boot.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    If a high-capacity magazine nut gets one of those free magazines jammed in his mouth crosswise, does it make a whistling sound? How'bout up the other end, where the sun doesn't shine, passing wind?
    Im against gun control like this one but after reading this strange comment i think it may be a good idea. Wierd people out there.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Fox has certainly been pointing out the people objecting. I figure if Fox doesn't like something, it's probably a pretty good idea.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Point is, I consider high-capacity magazines as unnecessary as bump stocks. While they have a legitimate use in fully automatic firearms, why do semi-automatic guns need that many rounds? My semiautomatic M-1 Carbine is only three years newer than me and was designed for a 15-round magazine. However, these days, ten round magazines are a lot more common, and mine came into my possession with only one ten-round magazine. I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would need more than ten rounds. I did later purchase a couple of old 15-round magazines, just for historical value, but they have only ten rounds in them so the springs don't get compressed so far.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    The new laws would seem much more "common sense" if they contained a sunset provision. Say, if there is no measurable effect of the law after 2-5 years, it ceases to be. If it can be shown to keep people safer, it would be hard for the most rabid gun nut to attack it. If, on the other hand, it is shown to have no discernible effect, similarly, it would be hard for the most ardent gun control proponent to defend it. In either case it would help focus the debate on harm reduction, where it should be, rather than on particular guns.
    How does that sound?
    why single out these laws for such treatment? Why don't we require similar assements of the effectiveness of every law passed?

    I think that would be an excellent idea. Every new law should have a section stating what the objective/intended purpose of the law is and a outline of how the effectiveness of the law in achieving that objective will be measured. In this particular case, however, I think your timeframe is too short. Let's look at it in 10 years.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Vermont regularly puts sunsets on tax bills. We had to raise money for the damage from tropical storm Irene & the extra tax was for 2 years only.

    So - I can certainly see adding provisions like this to any bill.

    And - yes this is pretty much VT's first firearm bill. No open carry or concealed carry permit is required for example - buy it & put it in your holster or tuck it under your jacket. As mentioned above, we don;t see the open carry idjuts around here. In fact, pretty much the only time you'll see a pistol on display is during hunting season & only then when a person is fresh out of the woods.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    As a kid I read "Man Eaters of Kumon" or some such place. The writer was a professional hunter who hunted tigers that acquired a taste for humans. He would be called to deal with the tiger. He stated that he only carried three rounds. He reasoned that after three rounds the tiger would be dead or on top of him.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    I just have to add a story about a non-firearm law we have. It was introduced by our now senior senator, Pat Leahy, back when he was a state senator.

    It's called the swimming hole law. Whoever is first at a swimming hole out of public view (which most of ours are) gets to decide if bathing suits are required. If someone comes after them & wants to wear suits, that's fine, but they cannot force the first ones there to wear them. However, if the first person there that day says suits are required, any who come after have to wear suits. If the first person leaves, it then devolves onto the next person, and so on. In practice, once suits are optional, it stays that way for the day, unless all the non-suit folks leave.

    A law that makes sense - whoda thunkit?
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I just have to add a story about a non-firearm law we have. It was introduced by our now senior senator, Pat Leahy, back when he was a state senator.

    It's called the swimming hole law. Whoever is first at a swimming hole out of public view (which most of ours are) gets to decide if bathing suits are required....

    A law that makes sense - whoda thunkit?
    I don't think our VP Prude would agree with that!

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I don't think our VP Prude would agree with that!
    No - he wouldn't. I'm thinking his appearance at a swimming hole out in the sticks of VT is rather unlikely though...
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Vermont regularly puts sunsets on tax bills. We had to raise money for the damage from tropical storm Irene & the extra tax was for 2 years only.

    So - I can certainly see adding provisions like this to any bill.

    And - yes this is pretty much VT's first firearm bill. No open carry or concealed carry permit is required for example - buy it & put it in your holster or tuck it under your jacket. As mentioned above, we don;t see the open carry idjuts around here. In fact, pretty much the only time you'll see a pistol on display is during hunting season & only then when a person is fresh out of the woods.
    What are you hunting with a pistol???
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I don't think our VP Prude would agree with that!
    Pence doesn't like the idea that someone else might want that option. Rather like Repubs and the abortion argument.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    What are you hunting with a pistol???
    Most commonly carried in case one wounds a deer with a rifle - shooting it with the pistol when you get up to it is easier. That said, not a lot of people carry them.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    I haven't hunted in a long time - but seems that, in SD, that wasn't allowed But it made sen
    se to me. And I might not be remembering 'right'.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Most commonly carried in case one wounds a deer with a rifle - shooting it with the pistol when you get up to it is easier. That said, not a lot of people carry them.
    cheaper too. Also, if you are out in the woods hunting, a backup gun might be good if you find something is hunting you
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    cheaper too. Also, if you are out in the woods hunting, a backup gun might be good if you find something is hunting you
    Not much of a worry here. Black bears will run away unless you get between a mom & her cub & much the same with moose.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Most commonly carried in case one wounds a deer with a rifle - shooting it with the pistol when you get up to it is easier. That said, not a lot of people carry them.
    this is illegal in many states
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    why single out these laws for such treatment? Why don't we require similar assements of the effectiveness of every law passed?

    I think that would be an excellent idea. Every new law should have a section stating what the objective/intended purpose of the law is and a outline of how the effectiveness of the law in achieving that objective will be measured. In this particular case, however, I think your timeframe is too short. Let's look at it in 10 years.
    Did I not read on here that the US banned collecting this sort of data. So how would you have reliable data on which to base any sunset decision down the line?
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    this is illegal in many states
    Putting an animal out of its misery?
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Since it is a law of the State of Vermont the federal government would not need to be involved.
    The fact that none of the proponents of either side are gathering such data on the numerous gun law changes in local jurisdictions cannot help but make one think neither side really wants to know the truth; they just want to cherry pick statistical factoids that support their preconceived positions

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    The term "gun nut" is highly pejorative. These are gun "@ssholes".

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Since it is a law of the State of Vermont the federal government would not need to be involved.
    The fact that none of the proponents of either side are gathering such data on the numerous gun law changes in local jurisdictions cannot help but make one think neither side really wants to know the truth; they just want to cherry pick statistical factoids that support their preconceived positions

    I think the “truth” is readily apparent when you look at the gun laws of other western countries. Canada and Australia do it differently with very different results from the US.

    When was the last time a crazy killed 58 and shot 600 in one of those 2 countries.

    This is is not that complicated.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    The new laws would seem much more "common sense" if they contained a sunset provision. Say, if there is no measurable effect of the law after 2-5 years, it ceases to be. If it can be shown to keep people safer, it would be hard for the most rabid gun nut to attack it. If, on the other hand, it is shown to have no discernible effect, similarly, it would be hard for the most ardent gun control proponent to defend it. In either case it would help focus the debate on harm reduction, where it should be, rather than on particular guns.
    How does that sound?
    This is is nothing more than an automatic method to eliminate gun control laws. If laws aren’t working you get your elected officials to change them. If they are working you keep them.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Yeah. The AR ban 'sun-setted' even-though it was highly effective - and the politics won't allow it be re-instituted.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    I think that the assault weapons ban that Clinton signed took effect during a long period of declining gun violence and did not significantly inflect the curve, positively or negatively, at its inception or its exit.
    No, it is an automatic way of eliminating ineffective laws. As someone noted, perhaps it is a system that should be applied to all laws.

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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    I think that the assault weapons ban that Clinton signed took effect during a long period of declining gun violence and did not significantly inflect the curve, positively or negatively, at its inception or its exit.
    No, it is an automatic way of eliminating ineffective laws. As someone noted, perhaps it is a system that should be applied to all laws.
    That might or might not have been true then. That law would have saved countless lives by now if it had stayed on the books.
    Rather than sunset laws, just do not prosecute under them until there is a need to do so.
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    Default Re: Vermont GOP governor takes a gamble on gun control

    Personally, I find the idea of selective enforcement ethically suspect. Although, I am not a lawyer, I think that if laws are found to be selectively enforced, they set up a basis for overturning a guilty verdict on appeal, thus effectively negating the law just when you wanted it.
    My sense is that many legislators are, themselves, lawyers, so I don't feel it is asking too much of them to write enforceable, constitutional, laws that actually do what they intend

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