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Thread: pilot coble

  1. #1
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    Default pilot coble

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Nice, but is registered for fishing.
    fileycoble.jpg
    The same double ended form at Filey.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nice, but is registered for fishing.
    check this link, hover your cursor over the image

    https://classicsailor.com/2015/11/th...ble/#iLightbox[gallery1419]/0
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Hartlepool, not Humber then.
    This is another, with her jurisdiction painted on the bow.

    Dated 1900
    and a post card

    There must have been a shed load of independent pilots if the boats were all numbered up to 69 and beyond.
    I see that the fishing registry was HL for Hull, not H so I was mistaken.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Hold it,

    According to my list H is indeed Hull and HL is Hartlepool.

    Can you read anything into the common colour scheme of the OP boat and the picture postcard ones?

    Mike

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by miketaylor View Post
    Hold it,

    According to my list H is indeed Hull and HL is Hartlepool.

    Can you read anything into the common colour scheme of the OP boat and the picture postcard ones?

    Mike
    As Hartlepool has its own fishing register port mark, the boats fishing from there would and did use it.
    Pilot cobles were usually black shear and topside strake, the OP boat has a different lighter colour on the third strake down though.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Strange oars in that first pic. Why so heavy?
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Strange oars in that first pic. Why so heavy?
    They are called copsea oars, used with a staple over a single thole pin.
    45 copsea oars.jpg47 nearly there.jpg
    You can let go of them and they will not go anywhere. On some beaches the oars were used as skids when dragging the boat up the sand.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Thank you. Most informative.

    Beautiful work on the model too.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Thank you. Most informative.

    Beautiful work on the model too.
    Ta! I posted a thread on the model build a while ago.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Here's a bit of info about Hartlepool pilots..

    http://www.hhtandn.org/venues/477/pilots-and-boats
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    They are called copsea oars, used with a staple over a single thole pin.
    45 copsea oars.jpg47 nearly there.jpg
    You can let go of them and they will not go anywhere. On some beaches the oars were used as skids when dragging the boat up the sand.


    I have asked umpteen times over the years why the oars shown here have acquired this odd shape and no one seems to know or are not interested.

    I have made one pair of this type only because I place great faith in that the old guys knew what they were doing.

    As Nick says you can just leave them and get on with some other problem that has arisen and when you return the are still there to continue using.

    Studying the oar what are the conclusions of the Forum as to why they arrived at that shape?

    They overlap too so I copied that (reluctantly)

    I have several (theories) but would be interested as to what your opinions are?

    Perhaps we should move to Tools @ Techniques ?
    Last edited by Chippie; 04-17-2018 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    I have asked umpteen times over the years why the oars shown here have acquired this odd shape and no one seems to know or are not interested.

    I have made one pair of this type only because I place great faith in that the old guys knew what they were doing.

    As Nick says you can just leave them and get on with some other problem that has arisen and when you return the are still there to continue using.

    Studying the oar what are the conclusions of the Forum as to why they arrived at that shape?

    They overlap too so I copied that (reluctantly)

    I have several (theories) but would be interested as to what your opinions are?

    Perhaps we should move to Tools @ Techniques ?
    Initially I would have suggested that they were a development from the old but still used Scandinavian oar working against a single thole pin with the rope hummlibaund replaced by the staple. This is based on their continued use in Northumbria/Yorkshire and in the Galway currachs where Scandinavian influence may have been strong. Some hire boats here on the lakes have a hole bored through the square loom to drop over a single iron thole. But that was probably just to make life easier for inexperienced grockles.
    However they are also used on the Portland lerrets, which were not exposed to Norse influence. Might just have been parallel evolution of a good idea.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    This is the first time I've seen oars made like that. It looks like a quick way to assemble a usable oar from lumber yard stock.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    cancelled
    Last edited by Chippie; 04-15-2018 at 07:47 AM.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    [QUOTE=Rob Hazard;5536141]This is the first time I've seen oars made like that. It looks like a quick way to assemble a usable oar from lumber yard stock.[/QUO

    That's feasible Rob I went along that road and thought how

    much easier than a rounded oar, but there are simpler designs to employ.

    I think it was much more complex than that.


    Remember that apart from sail rowing was the only means of propelling a boat when these came along then with mechanical propulsion they were less important. I am old enough to remember the oars that were in use when I was young coming from that period.

    Some features are lost in the "modern" equivalents.



    I am anticipating some smart ass coming along and saying the pulled boats with horses/ How about punts/they paddled canoes.

    Digressing slightly are there any more ( let's get it over with)
    Last edited by Chippie; 04-15-2018 at 07:48 AM.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Chippie, I notice that in the OP photo the oarsman has the oars deployed opposite of what you show in the photo of your model. Were these oars used either way?

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Chippie, I notice that in the OP photo the oarsman has the oars deployed opposite of what you show in the photo of your model. Were these oars used either way?
    It's my model and I don't think so.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post

    I am anticipating some smart ass coming along and saying the pulled boats with horses/ How about punts/they paddled canoes.

    Digressing slightly are there any more ( let's get it over with)


    Legging, you forgot legging
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    an inconvenient ledge in hartlepool

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Sorry, Peerie, I see now it's your model and photo.
    I do find the design of those oars oddly pleasing from an engineering point of view. They could easily be made to come apart quickly for stowage. Makes me almost wish I had a need for another pair of oars!

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Sorry, Peerie, I see now it's your model and photo.
    I do find the design of those oars oddly pleasing from an engineering point of view. They could easily be made to come apart quickly for stowage. Makes me almost wish I had a need for another pair of oars!
    No wukkas.
    The probably continued to be done that way for economical use of materials. The blade shaped from board and the looms cut from thicker stock, but in shorter lengths than needed for one piece oars.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Chippie, I notice that in the OP photo the oarsman has the oars deployed opposite of what you show in the photo of your model. Were these oars used either way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It's my model and I don't think so.
    Well spotted Rob actually Peerie has them deployed wrongly.

    The blade of the oar should precede the bile (loom) when the oar is pulled toward the rower.

    That means that the blade is supported at the back by the bile, if you look at the model and imagine pulling the oar forward the load on the blade is counteracted by the "lashing" only, a common mistake as is putting the "load" on the ring loop on the thole pin which results in the oar and ring parting company.

    Nick the blade was never recessed square into the bile but scarphed to prevent ​peeling.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    [IMG]jpgP0481[/IMG]

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Well spotted Rob actually Peerie has them deployed wrongly.

    The blade of the oar should precede the bile (loom) when the oar is pulled toward the rower.

    That means that the blade is supported at the back by the bile, if you look at the model and imagine pulling the oar forward the load on the blade is counteracted by the "lashing" only, a common mistake as is putting the "load" on the ring loop on the thole pin which results in the oar and ring parting company.

    Nick the blade was never recessed square into the bile but scarphed to prevent ​peeling.

    It looks as though I have driven the Cringle in from the wrong side. That will get sorted tomorrow,
    The drawings of the oars, available to me have square ended swash nailed into the clogg. The Sunderland foy boat Leslie that was in the Exeter collection and drawn by Cdr McKee being one. So there will have been regional differences.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    There will be no feathering of the oars on White Star. Perhaps there is some logic to do with surf, breaking bars and etc?
    In rough water catching a crab can be darn near lethal. The positioning shown here may indicate rowing while standing up, as the fwd man is going to break his teeth if he misses a stroke.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    There will be no feathering of the oars on White Star. Perhaps there is some logic to do with surf, breaking bars and etc?
    In rough water catching a crab can be darn near lethal. The positioning shown here may indicate rowing while standing up, as the fwd man is going to break his teeth if he misses a stroke.
    The only one who might have rowed standing was the helmsman who occasionally pushed an oar whilst steering.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    [QUOTE=Peerie Maa;5536229][/LEFT]

    Legging, you forgot legging





    Originally Posted by Chippie

    I am anticipating some smart ass coming along and saying the pulled boats with horses/ How about punts/they paddled canoes.

    Digressing slightly are there any more ( let's get it over with)







    Legging, you forgot legging



    I never classed you as a smart ass Nick.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    [QUOTE=Chippie;5537072]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    [/LEFT]

    Legging, you forgot legging





    Originally Posted by Chippie

    I am anticipating some smart ass coming along and saying the pulled boats with horses/ How about punts/they paddled canoes.

    Digressing slightly are there any more ( let's get it over with)







    Legging, you forgot legging



    I never classed you as a smart ass Nick.
    No. but I am as happy to extract the urine as the next person.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    A whole new meaning "lying down on the job"!


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    [/LEFT]

    Legging, you forgot legging
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post

    It looks as though I have driven the Cringle in from the wrong side. That will get sorted tomorrow,
    The drawings of the oars, available to me have square ended swash nailed into the clogg. The Sunderland foy boat Leslie that was in the Exeter collection and drawn by Cdr McKee being one. So there will have been regional differences.

    Now that we have established that the blade sits on the edge of the bile (loom) away from the rower it is obvious that when the oar is pulled the pressure exerted on the blade tends to make it want to pivot on the lowest point of contact with the bile and tear away at the "square ended swash".

    Hence the scarphed joint to counteract this.

    Nick, usually drawings are made by people with little practical experience and there is a reluctance to feedback from trades. This attitude was often the result of resentment being shown that an error on the drawing was being pointed out and not taken gladly by the draughtsperson . Of course one had to justify why the drawing was awry, which is the reason for this diatribe.

    So we can perhaps forgive Cdr McKee for getting it wrong.

    I'm surprised you are going to alter the mistake we found on your oars "today" when the type of oar is still under discussion, after all there may be more. But if you wish to sacrifice authenticity that's your choice. After all it doesn't really matter on a model.

    Is it worth continuing?

    As I said in the OP people soon tire of this subject I thought the " inquisitive one" would have risen to the occasion. Unfortunately one can't find any thing on Google or can they??

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A whole new meaning "lying down on the job"!
    I was looking at that picture and thought I wonder if one of the men standing aft was saying
    " I think I f we hung a plank over the stern and hinged it we could steer from here and get rid of those two"

    I notice the for'd two are lying on a plank, are they attempting to hide it?

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Now that we have established that the blade sits on the edge of the bile (loom) away from the rower it is obvious that when the oar is pulled the pressure exerted on the blade tends to make it want to pivot on the lowest point of contact with the bile and tear away at the "square ended swash".

    Hence the scarphed joint to counteract this.

    Nick, usually drawings are made by people with little practical experience and there is a reluctance to feedback from trades. This attitude was often the result of resentment being shown that an error on the drawing was being pointed out and not taken gladly by the draughtsperson . Of course one had to justify why the drawing was awry, which is the reason for this diatribe.

    So we can perhaps forgive Cdr McKee for getting it wrong.

    I'm surprised you are going to alter the mistake we found on your oars "today" when the type of oar is still under discussion, after all there may be more. But if you wish to sacrifice authenticity that's your choice. After all it doesn't really matter on a model.

    Is it worth continuing?

    As I said in the OP people soon tire of this subject I thought the " inquisitive one" would have risen to the occasion. Unfortunately one can't find any thing on Google or can they??
    Chippy, Cdr Eric McKee was drawing from life. The oars were in front of him. Some one as well respected as a holder of the NMM Caird Research Fellowship would not make stuff up. A square end nibbed into the clogg, just like a square hood end nailed into a rebate, will be as strong or stronger than a scarf as there is more wood to hold the nails in the swash.
    Like I said regional differences. Your bit of coast used a scarf, on the Tees it was square ended.
    Here is another method

    These are different again
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    I was wondering if those two were part of the boat's crew, or if they worked just at that underpass, like lock keepers. I also wondered if the plank is tied down or they have to get on and off it simultaneously to avoid going for a swim.

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    Default Re: pilot coble

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    I was wondering if those two were part of the boat's crew, or if they worked just at that underpass, like lock keepers. I also wondered if the plank is tied down or they have to get on and off it simultaneously to avoid going for a swim.
    They will be hired for the tunnel passage only. I doubt that the plank is tied down. They will both lie down inboard, and then shuffle out ward. One is still all inboard as it is.
    The Standedge Tunnel is the longest, deepest and highest canal tunnel in Britain. It is 5,500 yards (5,000 m) long, 636 feet (194 m) underground at its deepest point, and 643 feet (196 m) above sea level.[2]

    Operation

    The canal tunnel is only wide enough for one narrowboat for much of its length and to save on cost, as in some other canal tunnels in England, a tow-path was not provided in the tunnel. As canal boats were horse-drawn, the boats had to be legged through the tunnel – a process where one or more boatmen lay on the cargo and pushed against the roof or walls of the tunnel with their legs. Professional leggers were paid one Shilling and six Pence for working a boat through the tunnel which took one hour and twenty minutes for an empty boat and three hours with a full load.[10]
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 04-16-2018 at 02:06 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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