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Thread: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

  1. #1

    Default Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    I am getting tired of doing this over and over.

    1st time I used detco 2 part. Failed within 5 years.

    2nd time I used west system method of thin planks glued to thin ply and dyed epoxy for seams. Lasted 5 years. It cracked in a couple places from Florida heat-rain cycles. Not very repairable.

    Maybe this time Jeffery’s?

    Also what to recommend for the 1/4 to 3/8 ply for underlay.

    Thanks in advance!

    Rich
    SV Jasmine

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Pictures?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    I’ll take some today. Thanks.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    9B532381-5FE1-40B9-8C75-0F299D8E262A.jpg10199D22-E37F-42D2-AC05-C11A5761499D.jpgBF74DDFB-9018-4410-A39A-C469F2AC141E.jpgCF4F4068-52EF-4A09-A4E1-092C9B34FB5D.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]13900[/ATTACH


    Never posted photos before. Does this work?


    The larger companion way hatch was done 8years ago with west system graphite in the seams. The seams failed in two places. I keep the hatches tarped and that’s why the discoloration.

    The smaller companionway hatch had polysulfide and bond breaker tape at the bottom of the seams. It failed in two years.

    You d like something that can be repaired, so I do t have to do this a 4th time too soon.

    Thanks for the help.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rich morpurgo; 04-08-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    This is a method of hatch and deck construction that has proven to have little longevity. My own boat has such a problem and needs a new deck! Thin wood glued over plywood with epoxy seams may look good for a few years but it is s futile method of constructing a deck or hatch! Creating the look of correct construction without doing it correctly, is a fool's errand! The planks need to be, vertical grain and nearly square in cross section and should be caulked and payed with real, genuine seam compound in order to last. A hatch made in the correct manner should last forty to fity years or more when done right! Plywood is not your friend either in this case. Better to make the underlayment of T&G Cedar laid in the same direction as the planking.
    I may sound harsh here but this is the truth.
    Jay

  6. #6

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    jay,

    That is what I needed Jay. I hope I can reuse the teak after dismantling. how thick can the TnG cedar be? Can I glue the planking to it and use Jeffery’s?

    Also, How long will Jeffrey’s last in the container? As I can get to this job quickly, but likely can’t use the rest till I get after the cockpit decking in about 6 months.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Just noting from the photos, I can see a collection of problems with your hatch. What I mentioned above is true but there are also some other things that need to be addressed with your new hatch. The dovetail joints at the corners of the hatch should be replaced with proper joinery as dovetails on deck structures tend to end up leaking eventually. The hatch frame should be made of stock that is half lap joined at the corners or framed into corner blocks Then a capping rail should be laid over the top. The Tongue and groove "car siding" planks are, normally, set into a rabet in the frame and the can be either canvased or glassed over to insure it being water tight. A good idea is to use cedar stop waters at the corner joints of the frame as well. The teak planks are then set into the Frame just as a picture is set into its frame. Varnish on the outer frame is a nice feature if you like the look. Seams should be caulked by rolling light cotton caulking into the seams and Jefferies Marine Glue should be used to pay the seams. Jefferies Marine Glue is sold in a solid block and is melted in a pot over a stove. I use a plumber's cast iron lead melting pot. I use T&G Alaskan Yellow Cedar that I make up using
    stock that is just over a quarter inch thick. There are router bits that are suitable for this. Or you can have them made up.
    This will create a hatch that will last and if maintained will last a very very long time. You can reference comments I have made recently on another thread dealing with hatches and how the hatches I created for the Pardey's have lasted and not leaked over the years.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-08-2018 at 11:55 AM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Forget the teak. Build the frame in the timber of your choice. 1/2 inch ply for the top. Glass all over. Paint with your favourite flavour.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Phil has a point. Additionally bare wood exposed to the elements doesn't hold up well no matter what species it is. You don't need to varnish teak, but it doesn't hurt to use something periodically whether it is an oil, wax or some miracle snake oil.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Teak flavored hatch is theatre.
    Saw that rubber crap outta there , saw open all the joinery work, fill it and coat it with epoxy, paint it .
    First hatch would be your last hatch if this had been done.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    My old man wanted a teak hatch years ago. He built a ply hatch from marine ply and veneered the top with 10 mil teak veneer. Epoxied and glassed the whole shebang and framed the hatch with solid teak.
    Lasted for years and years and looked for all the world like a solid teak hatch.
    I always felt like it was boat bling.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    The reason for having a raw planked teak hatch on the fore deck is for its anti slip properties. A varnished frame just sets it off a bit but the main surface is nicely non-skid even when wet. It can save your bacon when fisting sail during a dark windy night on the fore deck! It goes without saying that it looks nice as well.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-09-2018 at 06:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    I'd suggest an anti slip finish can be every bit as good, and one great anti slip is the weave of the glass you use. As for looks, entirely subjective, and let's face it, we don't know whether this hatch sits on a real laid teak deck, a fake teak deck, or a glass deck. Whichever, fake teak is fake teak. And if it's cupping and the fake caulking is failing and it's going rotten and mouldy in the harsh climate it lives in, it probably doesn't look so great most of the time anyway.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    The quality and apearance of any new component added to an existing boat should be in harmony with the appearance of the vessel it is built for.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Quote Originally Posted by rich morpurgo View Post
    9B532381-5FE1-40B9-8C75-0F299D8E262A.jpg10199D22-E37F-42D2-AC05-C11A5761499D.jpgBF74DDFB-9018-4410-A39A-C469F2AC141E.jpgCF4F4068-52EF-4A09-A4E1-092C9B34FB5D.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]13900[/ATTACH


    Never posted photos before. Does this work?


    The larger companion way hatch was done 8years ago with west system graphite in the seams. The seams failed in two places. I keep the hatches tarped and that’s why the discoloration.

    The smaller companionway hatch had polysulfide and bond breaker tape at the bottom of the seams. It failed in two years.

    You d like something that can be repaired, so I do t have to do this a 4th time too soon.

    Thanks for the help.
    did you say the hatches are covered with a tarp/canvas cover?

    we had a boat in a local boat yard coverd in a tarp and a year later the tarp was taken off and a large percentage of the cypress planking had failed, been rotted/eaten up by the heat and moisture under the tarp... wonder if that could be part o the problem?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    What Jay said, but as I understand him, he's describing an honest-to-god teak hatch with vertical grain teak planking that is a least an inch and a half thick to hold the caulking and a frame strong enough to stand up to the stress imposed by driving the caulking in properly. To my way of thinking, that's overkill for a hatch on a smaller boat. Lifting the weight of such a hatch can be a chore and one falling down on your head can be somewhat uncomfortable. (Don't ask me how I know that!)

    I would suggest a proper stout teak frame and lid with the lid covered with a good-quality plywood (or tongue and groove plank if you're a purist, which I guess you're not.) The plywood should be well soaked in CPES and then Dynel cloth and epoxy resin with paint over that. This will be lightweight and relatively long-lasting as well as providing good footing. The Dynel is practically indistinguishable from painted canvas. Place half-round teak trim around the edges of the Dynel and epoxy. Varnish the exposed teak on the hatch and you're good to go. (And be sure to round all the corners of the trim. Your ankles will thank you for that.)

    One could sheath a plywood hatch cover in teak to create a "faux laid teak" look, but it's longevity is going to depend upon the teak being at least three-quarters of an inch think in order to fasten plugged screws into it and to have enough of a seam to pay stopping into. The stopping really has to be deeper in the seam than it is wide, with a release at the bottom (very important) which can be simply a loose bit of cotton caulking material. If stopping isn't deeper than it is wide and especially if it sticks to the bottom of the seam, it will pull away at the sides. That's just physics. Think about a rubbery seam in cross-section. When the wood shrinks and the seam adheres to the bottom of the seam, all of the "stretch" is going to end up at the top edges of the seam and that's where and why the sides pull away. Jeffrey's "marine glue" is a better option because if it pulls away, a bit of attention with a soldering gun tip will liquefy it and the seam can be restored, but even Jeffrey's stopping is going to pull at the edges if the seam is narrow and the compound is stuck to the bottom of a seam that is wider than it is deep.

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    No Bob, sorry to say but you are reading something different into what I said that is not what I meant! If you look at the fore hatch surface on "Red Witch" in this picture, you will see that the teak stands slightly higher than the sorrounding frame it is set into. In truth is is about 7/8"+ by 1 1/4" in thickness and is fastened from beneath through the five sixteenths yellow cedar T&G. This allows it to be scraped down a lot over the years before it needs replacing. Fastening from the top would allow the bungs to pop as it gets thinner. The hatch is constructed in such a manner as to allow the teak to be replaced as it becomes thinner. This is something that is a nightmare to accomplish with a glued veneered hatch or deck! I might add that the hatch is not too heavy, just enough to allow it to remain in place if not dogged down.
    Jay

  18. #18

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Thanks Everyone!

    I Think I am going to use teak I have from an old deck as the underlayment. I will get a bit to make the toungue and groove, so there will be some rigidity. Then, if I can salvage the current boards, I will reuse them. I will buy some of the Jeffrey's and use it. At least this way the hatch can be recaulked without rebuilding, as the teak frame on this old one is 40 years old and still going strong. I know that someone said that the dovetails are not the right joint, but they haven't ben any problem so far.

    I know I will have to revisit this again, but at least I think it will be an improvement.

    thanks again for all the suggestions.

    Rich
    Last edited by rich morpurgo; 04-14-2018 at 10:56 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Doesn't resorcinol glue work for teak?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    I am now ready to do this job. I have decided to do Jay Greer's method. I am doing this job in Indiana and will need to ship this to me. I have the ability to do all the milling and planing, but maybe it isn't that much more to buy premilled 5/4 decking?

    Any suggestions welcome.

    Rich Morpurgo

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Rich, The teak needs only to be set down in Dolfinite over the cedar T&G. This will allow the teak to removed when it becomes too thin to be practical as a result of scraping over the years. The teak planks should be caulked either with candle wicking or a thin strand of cotton that is rolled over the top of your thigh with your palm and then set in the seam using a caulking wheel. Once caulked, the seams should be primed with a mixture of turpentine and a bit of bees wax that has been melted and poured into the turps. If you mask off the seams prior to priming them, you will avoid having a mess of bees wax on the top of the hatch. Jefferies Marine glue can then be poured into the seams using a ladle and scraped flush with the masking tape once it has set. This is the method of making a teak planked hatch that I was taught when I first went to work in the boat yards. We did not mask seams off in those days but I find that its use makes the work easier.
    Good luck with your hatch, it may out live us all! Jay

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit View Post
    Doesn't resorcinol glue work for teak?
    Resorcinol is a touchy glue to mix and use. It is very temperature sensitive and must have at least fifteen hours of time in the clamps at temperatures above 65degs. I have had bad luck for no apparant reason after doing a glue lam deck beam. Allowing it to cure under pressure over night with heating pads under a foil tent only to have the lams spring apart the next day when removing the clamps. I know that others claim to have used it at lower temps but I have never had much luck with it at less than 65deg. It also seems to have a limited shelf life and once it ages over a year, it is better off being tossed in the dust bin as it has now become questionable as to its reliability.
    I also find that it does not color blend in well on wood that is to be bright finished as it is almost a deep blackish purple in color.

    In truth, I find that G/flex epoxy is a much better adhesive for wood that is oily such as teak and acidic such as white oak. I find myself reaching for G/flex more often than any other glue I keep on the shop shelf.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 10-11-2018 at 03:38 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    is there a good source for the teak? I would need about 20 board feet.

    thanks everyone!

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Edensaw in Port Townsend stocks teak.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    "Red Witches" fore hatch has its raw teak portion of the hatch standing about 3/16" proud of the encompassing frame. This allows for a lot of scrubbing and scraping before it comes down flush to the varnished frame.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Rebuild teak hatches (3rd time in 20 years)

    Rip down some marine ply to the width you want and lay as if it was teak strips, complete with black sikaflex seams.
    Then wrap the whole outside with epoxy/glass and varnish (a couple of times a year). Cover the underside with epoxy and paint white.

    If you can stay on top of the varnish it'll outlive you.
    If not, paint it with non-skid in 5 years time when you are sick of the maintenance.

    What does your deck look like?
    Philip K. Dick 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

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