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Thread: Journeyman sharpening questions

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Nice tool but there isn't a lot of meat left in it. Once the edge goes past the hollow on the back it will require a lot of work to keep a straight edge.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    i was wondering about that

    however the hollow is very very shallow at the front edge deepening moving back towards the socket, so i think some time spent flattening the back would be rewarded with more support for the edge, no?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 04-01-2018 at 04:01 PM.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I have to endorse the kerosene usage.The last type of oil you need is lubricating oil as it is intended to reduce friction and with a sharpening stone you are using a liquid to keep the pores clear and permit effective cutting.I do have a couple of cheap diamond stones and they are ok for removing metal,but when I want a good cutting edge I reach for the 6000 grit waterstone and prepare it with the slurry from a nagura stone.The bevel is like a mirror and the edge tends to be very good.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    i was wondering about that

    however the hollow is very very shallow at the front edge deepening moving back towards the socket, so i think some time spent flattening the back would be rewarded with more support for the edge, no?
    You should ask Jay Greer about that, Paul. It's been my experience that there's not much flat between the edge and the hollow even when you buy the chisel new. I'd be interested in finding out how to handle that because I have several chisels needing such attention.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    You have to mill the back bringing the thickness down. You can take more out of the front edge then the butt but it must stay straight and flat with no rocker. It wouldn't require much at first but as the edge move farther back the concave hollow is deeper.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I think for every 'thirty one thousandths' ground off the bottom would yield an additional 1/16th inch of support behind the edge. I'd probably give it go with the flat side of my large Tormek. . .

    I'll make that my evening project for the week and will report back. Kinda wish I had a large horizontal water cooled wheel. . .

    Should I grind it flat as is, continuing the same geometry the bottom has now; or would it be beneficial to change the angle and grind more or less from the edge?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 04-01-2018 at 04:50 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I would only grind the back when the edge passes the hollow. Until then use it as it is. A slick like that isn't going to get the hard use like a chisel would. You won't be pounding on it. More than likely only cutting off bungs. I probably shouldn't have raised the issue.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Why use the side of the Tormek stone, don't you have an angle grinder?

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I got an angle grinder. I just don't have mad angle grinder skills like erster and whizbang do.

    maybe I could hog it off quickly with a belt sander though?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 04-01-2018 at 05:32 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I have a mess of Japanese chisels, and they are all hollowed like that on the back, some with more than one hollow. Every time you sharpen the bevel, you also "sharpen" the back, in fact you start with the back. What happens eventually is the hollow gets smaller and smaller, and the connecting flat gets longer and the blade takes longer to sharpen.
    That chisel looks like the "house brand" from the Japan Woodworker in the 1970's. The original owner had stuff made to order for him in Japan. To me it looks "as new" other than the patina. (He had an laminated iron made to the american pattern for my Bailey Jointer)
    When new, the flat back at the edge is quite narrow, as you only need just enough to maintain the edge and a 1/32" is just fine. There is a trick to sharpening those, and like a Japanese plane iron you can "bend" the edge toward the back. There is skill and education required or it will be cracked and ruined, but when you "get-it" it will be the sharpest chisel you ever had. You need to do some home-work on this one.

    Send it to me, I will sharpen it and send it back, gratis...

    edit to add; Don't get it anywhere near a grinder...

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    SWEET! I've always had a hankering for some Japanese chisels, but they just never seem to come p at the cheapo garage sales I haunt

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I'm seeing diamond plates from$10-$150. Any tips on a quality brand?

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I'm surprised that you use oil stones Gib.
    No honing oil in my shop. There is nothing mo efficient at contaminating poxy and paint bonds than a trace of honing oil.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I'm seeing diamond plates from$10-$150. Any tips on a quality brand?
    DMT

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Not a bad score for $25 each eh?


    Attachment 13459
    Very nice score.
    I was taught to touch up my big Japanese slick by just honing the back. Seems to do the trick. If it had a nick in it Id hone the bevel side, too. They are a joy to use.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Not a bad score for $25 each eh?

    Quarter for scale, kinda got over exposed

    Attachment 13458

    Attachment 13456

    Attachment 13459
    I don't own any japanese planes or chisels but - long ago I read of a technique for larger chisels and plane irons which involves tapping the bevelled face with a hammer so as to work out some of the hollow on the back face......

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....hisel-Question

    Anyone able to comment from real experience?
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    I don't own any japanese planes or chisels but - long ago I read of a technique for larger chisels and plane irons which involves tapping the bevelled face with a hammer so as to work out some of the hollow on the back face......

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....hisel-Question

    Anyone able to comment from real experience?


    I've heard of that method. I tried it once I chipped off the corner of the chisel, the steel being rather more brittle than Western chisels.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I always used wet and dry paper on plate glass and a honing guide and was perfectly happy with the results except that my arthritis made my fingers ache after a couple of blades.
    I bought the Worksharp about six months ago and have been frankly amazed at the results. It puts a consistent bevel on the edge, and with grits up to 1000+ my tools are more than sharp enough and my fingers are happy...
    Im not a gadget guy, but this thing is worth every penny.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    I've heard of that method. I tried it once I chipped off the corner of the chisel, the steel being rather more brittle than Western chisels.
    Pounding on any hard cutting tool is bound to do damage.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Pounding on any hard cutting tool is bound to do damage.
    Tapping would be a better word for what I was doing.

    I've just been reading "Japanese Woodworking Tools" by Toshio Odate, on the subject and he goes on at length about how the task was performed. Chisel blades, however, were generally ground out, but plane blades were tapped. The tapping had to be done on the soft steel on the back of the blade, and even for a skilled craftsman there was a great danger of cracking the blade.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Do y'all that have them, prefer a straight grind or a hollow grind, on your Japanese laminated chisels?
    I've never seen a Japanese carpenter put a hollow grind on a chisel; have read (Odate & others) and was told that one of the skills learnt was how to sharpen a flat blade flat.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I understand. Actually the technic has been used since metal working began. It is a substitute for tempering on softer steel. I suspect to be successful an enormous amount of practice is required.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    I've never seen a Japanese carpenter put a hollow grind on a chisel; have read (Odate & others) and was told that one of the skills learnt was how to sharpen a flat blade flat.
    I've never seen a Japanese carpenter. Anyway when a person uses hand held tools to achieve high levels of accuracy abundant practice using the proper tools and technic is required. If a person is given a bar of round stock and asked to make it perfectly square by hand very few individuals have the skills required. That's why there are so many jigs to help people that haven't developed the muscle memory and hand strenght required to sharpen without aid.
    Last edited by navydog; 04-02-2018 at 10:16 AM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I use a lot of Japanese tools in my work. Keeping them sharp with natural water stones and no jig is easy because the bevels are large enough to
    allow feeling the full contact of the blade on the stone. The main reason Japanese blades are hollow gound on their backs is to allow full pressure to be applied to the blade without having ones fingers slip off the end and start leaving streaks of blood on the stone. I usually pick up stones that are cracked at a discount which makes natural stones affordable for me. Gorilla Glue holds them just fine. Epoxy works too. The slurry mentioned above is only used on the last two stones to aid in polishing the bevel. A hollow backed tool is only flattened on the finest stone to remove the wire edge. It is very importand not to flatten out the hollow grind by using coarse stones. The slurry is produced by using a soft sedimentary "Nagura Stone" on the last two stones. The next to the last is an Ocean Blue which is really black. The final stone should have a surface that looks like peach skin in color. I have never needed to replace these stones as they are well cared for and are not called upon to do anything but polish the final edge.
    Jay

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I have a "favorite" Japanese chisel, 20mm I guess I keep it in my tool bag and it has been sharpened until it is now about half it's original length. It would not be possible to do that without stoning and flattening the back. This chisel blade was probably about 2" long when it was new maybe 1970. It's about an inch long now but will last my lifetime, chisels that get used do get sharpened frequently. The Japanese make this very fast and easy by using only a minimum of hardened steel, sort of a channel with the balance being filled with softer iron, which sharpens away at a fast rate.

    A look on ebay for "Japanese chisel" will occasionally yield a gem (I have gotten a couple!) but most often will show a tool that has been used within a mm of it's life. Sharpened down to a nubbin, but probably still working.

    exhibit A;

    IMG_3766.jpg

    "B"

    IMG_3768.jpg
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 04-02-2018 at 02:11 PM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Jeeze, Jay! If "He who dies with the most tools wins." is true, I'm afraid I'm going to have to concede defeat right now. Not only a museum-quality chisel collection, but all in fitted dovetailed drawers. Nice job!

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    coaldrake suggests a japanese carpenter needed 4 hours of sharpening for every 6 hours of work. there was lots of muscle memory. In the 1943-44 survey of how many tools it took a traditional japenese carpenter to work of the 197 tools 6 were sharpening stones and as far as I can tell there were no jigs.

    nowadays in the west few people have that kind of training and even less have that time so jigs - good, bad, ugly - proliferate.

    yeah, lots of the old japanese tools from Japan are used up. some of them also have damage like cracked ferrules. some gems out there though - and for raritys like a double bladed mortise chisel the used market is all you've got.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    50 years ago I was told by an boatbuilder that apprenticed in England, when the job was finished and you were "let go" you were paid for one additional day to resharpen your tools.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    coaldrake suggests a japanese carpenter needed 4 hours of sharpening for every 6 hours of work. there was lots of muscle memory. In the 1943-44 survey of how many tools it took a traditional japenese carpenter to work of the 197 tools 6 were sharpening stones and as far as I can tell there were no jigs.

    nowadays in the west few people have that kind of training and even less have that time so jigs - good, bad, ugly - proliferate.

    yeah, lots of the old japanese tools from Japan are used up. some of them also have damage like cracked ferrules. some gems out there though - and for raritys like a double bladed mortise chisel the used market is all you've got.
    Something tells me that in 1943 and 1944, a lot of Japanese carpenters had a lot more on their minds that sharpening their tools!

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    I have a banana box full of 'orphan' socket chisels, mostly pre-war, Witherby, Swan, Buck, Butcher, etc.; missing handles, 'mushroomed ferrules..(there's a special place in hell for those that pound a ferrule with a metal hammer..) I've learned to reshape the damage on a mandrill I made up. Handles are made from Hornbeam. I flatten the backs on a stationary belt sander, gently (removes the pitting) then wet or dry on plate glass, then arkansas/kero.
    Hey! It's MY Hughniverse!

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    A lot of my sharpening customers have come to me asking why they cannot get a good edge. It's often the case that their stone is caked and glazed with hardened linseed oil, vegetable oil or WD40."
    I clean my good Wa****a stones after every use, but must confess to sometimes getting lazy and just reaching for the old "Blue and Yellow" spray can instead of messing around with pouring out some kerosene into something smaller than the gallon tin. (I keep meaning to load up an empty spray bottle with kerosene and keeping it on the "oil shelf" above my lathe.)

    I have a collection of a few "square black rocks" that I've recognized as sharpening stones and snagged for cheap in garage sales, but they never really sharpened worth a darn. Obviously, they need cleaning. Any ideas on the best way to clean a stone that's "caked and glazed with hardened linseed oil, vegetable oil or WD40?"

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Any ideas on the best way to clean a stone that's "caked and glazed with hardened linseed oil, vegetable oil or WD40?"
    Just soak it in a can of kerosene as a starting point, it will dissolve most of what is caked on. Some one earlier mentioned truing stones with a diamond plate, this would remove any remaining glaze. Using diamond is no required for either though. A new carborundum stone can be used as well to keep stones flat.
    Last edited by navydog; 04-03-2018 at 10:30 AM.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Easy Off oven cleaner (lye) helps, but it's next to impossible to get out the soaked in stuff. Maybe boiling once the surface is cleaned?

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    Throw them in a bucket of wtaer and forget about them for a while. The denser water will eventually displace the lighter oils.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Journeyman sharpening questions

    When a Japanese chisel has been sharpened to the point that the hollow affects the edge the flat can be restored by placing a thin metal shim under the upper portion of the back and working the tool at 90degrees to the length of the stone. This will raise the back of the hollow allowing only the portion near the cutting edge to make contact. Hammering out can be done as well but the process can crack the blade and only works on wide chisels. Only a fine line of flat is needed. About 2 to 3 mm.

    Holding the blade free hand, during sharpening, can be made easier if the body is nearly vertical over the stone. This allows the wrists to be locked and the angle of the bevel is more easily held. Japanese Shokunin work from a kneeling position on the floor which aids in the process as the arms are then straight and the weight of the upper body comes into play and putting pressure on the blade and stone.

    For us guys with bad backs a low bench works.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-04-2018 at 07:32 PM.

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