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Thread: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    WOW Daniel,
    I just went through the forecast details in your #31 post. What kind of interval do you see when those come up? I don't mind big air or big seas, but I'm not fond of them in shallow water on a lee shore. YUK! Looks like a great time to dig out the skinny skis and the hot chocolate!

  2. #37
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    It strikes me Peter that you are asking for a boat capable of crossing oceans in comparative safety. To that end it has to be fully submersible, ie can recover from inversion and green water over the deck with impunity. Also self steering. This can be done, but may not be on the plans for the Eel. I'm not sure I'd want to spend 3 months in a folk-boat, very cramped.

    Not it sure why you need a trailerable ocean going boat.. I imagine that facility is secondary to staying alive and comfort at sea. Big boats can be trailered by big vehicles.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Ocean rowing boats are easily towed behind a normal car. Not difficult to make a boat ocean worthy, more difficult to get people to accept the compromises.
    Try starting from what weight you can tow and launch. The current motor sailor concept was based on fitting in an 26ft berth, had to be road trailerable without permits ,8ft, and tow behind a non commercial vehicle. It also had to be self righting, have positive buoyancy and a motoring range in calm weather of a 1000 miles.
    I was going to build a Kotik at one point for these kind of coastal journeys, anyboat under 1200kg can fit on a single axle trailer, and towed behind many family cars, the savings on that alone are worth thinking about. There is plenty of room for one or two in a 1200kg boat. A friend of mine circumnavigated in a lighter boat. I like Pauls Rona Yawl, but we have been down this road before......

  4. #39
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?





    Selway Fisher.http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachts.htm


    This little ship has been designed for the sailing author Derek Harvey and incorporates many ideas gleaned from his years of sailing experience. The starting point for the design was the requirement for a trailable boat with comfortable internal living space for 2 with a large and practicable cockpit area. The rig had to be both efficient and easy to use from the cockpit and she had to carry a large outboard for motoring out to sailing grounds. Clinker ply construction using 7 planks per side was chosen to give the hull a sweet appearance which was fairly easy to construct (details and plank shapes are also given for stitch and epoxy construction and she could be strip planked). For easy trailing she has twin pivoted bilge boards which do not encroach on the accommodation and are housed under the bunks and she carries some water ballast. Inside there are 2 large bunks with galley and saloon/chart table and a locker for a Porta Potti. The layout could be re arranged to take more berths. She has a foredeck well and she carries a gunter yawl rig for good balance under reduced sail. LOD 21’3’’ (6.48m); Beam 8’ (2.4m); Draft 1’5’’/4’ (.42/1.2m); Sail Area 280 sq.ft. (26.07 sq.m); Displ. 3938 lb. (1786kg); Approx. trailing wht 3000 lb (1361 kg); Ballast 992 lb (450 kg).



    21' Rona Yawl Particulars
    LOD 21'3" 6.48m
    Beam 8' 2.44m
    Draft 1'5"/4' 0.42/1.22m
    Sail Area 280 sq.ft 26.07 sq.m
    Approx. Dry Weight 3938 lbs
    1786 kg
    Ballast 992 lbs 450 kg
    Maximum Headroom 4'10" 1.47m
    Accommodation 2 berths plus galley and wc
    Engine 9-12 hp outboard
    Hull Shape
    Round bilge
    Construction Methods Clinker ply over frame
    Major plywood requirements 4 1/2 x 4mm sheets
    9 x 6mm sheets
    19 x 12mm sheets
    4 x 15mm sheets
    Guidance Use Offshore
    Drawing/Design Package 13 x A1 drawings + 11 x A4 instruction/spec sheets
    Additions and alterations included with the plans Side decks with bulwark
    Gaff cutter yawl rig
    Fixed bilge keels
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Having crossed Bass Strait a few times and done the "next passage south" of the Brisbane to Honiara jaunt three times, I'd have to say that there's no way anyone could drag me onto a canoe yawl for either such passage. I've done Bass Strait on a boat only about 300kg heavier than the Rona, within sight of two famous cruisers and racers aboard a Finisterre type who wrote that it was the worst seas they'd met in 200,000 miles including Alaska and Cape Horn, but that was with much more space, speed and length available. It's not that such passages have to be done on big boats, but they have to be stable and they have to be able to get there in a reasonable time even when, as always seems to happen, the forecasts fail and you end up slogging to windward.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Yes, an unplanned trip to New Zealand could come about .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  7. #42
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Having crossed Bass Strait a few times and done the "next passage south" of the Brisbane to Honiara jaunt three times, I'd have to say that there's no way anyone could drag me onto a canoe yawl for either such passage. I've done Bass Strait on a boat only about 300kg heavier than the Rona, within sight of two famous cruisers and racers aboard a Finisterre type who wrote that it was the worst seas they'd met in 200,000 miles including Alaska and Cape Horn, but that was with much more space, speed and length available. It's not that such passages have to be done on big boats, but they have to be stable and they have to be able to get there in a reasonable time even when, as always seems to happen, the forecasts fail and you end up slogging to windward.
    Personally , I would not do Bass Straight in any trailerable boat.
    Last edited by Wet Feet; 03-23-2018 at 04:32 AM.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    The Norwark Island Sharpie has done bass straight in some pretty ordinary weather if I recall correctly. Rob Ayliffe, founder of Duck Flat Wooden boats swears by them.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    The Norwark Island Sharpie has done bass straight in some pretty ordinary weather if I recall correctly. Rob Ayliffe, founder of Duck Flat Wooden boats swears by them.
    Yep , Ayliffe did that. I spoke to him about it years ago. The cabin structure of NIS boats helps the boat with considerable reserve stability if knocked down. The rigs on NIS boats are very expensive.

    I would rather go aboard Balia myself
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wet Feet View Post
    Personally , I would not do Bass Straight in any trailerable boat.
    Sure; tastes differ and there's not too many I'd cross the Strait in either. A Noelex 30 trailerable I raced offshore did a Sydney-Hobart under a later owner, and the boat I did my last one on was roughly similar. It was very uncomfortable under storm trysail, but not unseaworthy and actually lots of fun at times.

    If an Adams centreboard Cruising Ten fits the trailerable definition, it would be another boat that would be fun to take across. A drop keel version of something like my light 28'er would be small, but fine. It's a pity the trailering restrictions and the beam/length ratio for 28-30 footers don't really match.

    The NIS would be an interesting choice. I'm not sure how often Ayliffe etc had done similar trips, since that has a bearing on their impressions of how bad the weather was, compared to their impressions of how bad it was. After having crossed the Strait a few times I still found myself asking those who had done it 30 times or sailed around the world how hard it was, just to try to get a reality check. The problem is that we so often just go on impressions and inaccurate measurements; I've known guys who swore they had a No 1 headsail up in 60 knots! As another example, after a breezy race in a big dinghy fleet you can ask experienced sailors how hard it was and get an enormous range of estimates of the windspeed, and then the race officials with instruments will give you an entirely different one! :-)
    Last edited by Chris249; 03-23-2018 at 04:51 AM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Good comment Chris.

    For anyone interested in the NIS 23 crossing , here is Ayliffe`s account :

    http://straydogboatworks.com/nisboats/pdfs/Charlie%20Fisher%20Bass%20Strait%201.pdf
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    OK. Forget Hobart !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  13. #48
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wet Feet View Post
    Yep , Ayliffe did that. I spoke to him about it years ago. The cabin structure of NIS boats helps the boat with considerable reserve stability if knocked down. The rigs on NIS boats are very expensive.

    I would rather go aboard Balia myself
    Me too, but she'd be a bugger on a trailer.

  14. #49
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    Just posting here so I'll get notified of updates, but...

    SCAMP


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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Fairey Atalanta.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Farrier

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Not with any vehicle I'd want to drive .
    5000-6000 lbs. isn't too bad if you have the right vehicle. Over 10 gets interesting.
    Stateside, you can rent pickup trucks (like post #10) or small flatbeds that are pre-equipped for towing. (Home Depot/Lowes has pickup-based flatbeds by the hour for $20 or so, and the hitch says it's rated for 9000.) So launch and retrieve events don't have to be done with the daily driver.

    NZ may have different towing laws and resources, of course... And EU countries have testing, licensing, and more stringent traffic laws regarding towing than US does, where it's largely wide-open if non-commercial and non-airbrake/smaller-than-semi use. And the wide-open part is not always a good thing...

  18. #53
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    WOW Daniel,
    I just went through the forecast details in your #31 post. What kind of interval do you see when those come up? I don't mind big air or big seas, but I'm not fond of them in shallow water on a lee shore. YUK! Looks like a great time to dig out the skinny skis and the hot chocolate!
    snow shoes and hot chocolate!... yeah, the scary part is how quickly things can detieroiate, that can happen most anywhere there is big water, so knowing or researching local conditions will always be part of seaworthyness.

    a couple hours between seas of 4-7 ft and 17-21 ft is a dangerous turn, something I would hope never to see, especially as you mention, close to shore, with the possability of larger monsters out there in the fog and rain, waves of these sizes are finding bottom miles from shore and could become very unpredictable.

    we have a couple harbours we can run for under such conditions, Gloucester being the best, protected from the North east and deep enough that the entrance never breaks, also the Isle o'Shoals can be a safe harbour when the rest of our coastal inlets have dangerous breaking seas.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Almost any design can be suitably prepared for sailing offshore. It needs to have properly enclosed volume for keeping the water out. It needs enough stiffness to carry sail well, and a range of positive stability, well beyond a mast in the water full knockdown. Obviously another principal criteria would be the ability to carry enough food, water, stores, spares, and of course crew, to reasonably expect to complete the intended voyage. There are of course other factors such as handling...sails and boat handling etc. but meeting those requirements more or less sums it up.
    I note that, though there have been a number of successful small open boat voyages, there have also been some real failures which illustrate the vulnerability....I am thinking of Webb Chiles and "Chidiock Tichborne".
    I also note Roger Taylors Ming Ming and MM II as being small successful voyagers.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    How about a Flicka? 20ft but considered quite capable and if you dont want to build in wood, you can find a plastic one. Definitely trailerable.
    http://www.flicka20.com

  21. #56
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    My first thought was the Amigo 22

    http://www.boatdesigns.com/mobile/22.../products/423/

    ~Daniel

  22. #57
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A photo of her now.

    wonderful, living history... very cool.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Just how "trailerable" Peter? By that I mean that the average vehicle, on an ordinary boatramp is limited in both what it can haul up the ramp, and in how deep draft the boat is. Then the next question is how "offshore"? The boats best suited to that wont be easy to pull out of the water, my little sloop is a long keeled boat with wineglass section and its a pain to get on and off the trailer, but is safe out there on the big briny.

    John Welsford
    This thread is giving much food for thought. The original idea was Australia's East coast, the whole way. Our problem is that as things breeze up most of the normal anchorages become inaccessible due to nasty river bars. So by off shore I mean a boat that can survive outside ..... or at least have a good chance of doing so.

    Depth /draft and the launch difficulties presented seems possible to over come by choosing the right ramp and letting the trailer out on a winch cable until the boat floats off.

    My current vehicle, a Hilux 4x4 may not be heavy enough and if that happens another ute will be required. My thoughts have been around the Murray Peterson 18 foot open ''dinghy'', the plans sold by WB Store. 18ft LOA, 2'6'' draft. 6'3'' beam with 500 pound ballast outside. The idea was to deck it in with a self draining cockpit and a tiny Sjogin style cabin.Peterson 2.jpg
    Edited to add , displacement either 2000# or 2750#.
    aaaaa 208jspj (1).jpg
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 03-23-2018 at 07:27 PM.
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Should not be a problem for a well built trailer sailer.
    Hartley 16s, 18s & 21s regular sailed along the NZ coast and some did Cook Strait.
    I arrived in Tonga in 1978 (by launch) and met a local lad who had sailed from Auckland to Tonga in an 18 foot Robert Tucker bilge keeler.
    And I believe he did the return trip a number of times. The cabin was a flat floor, not berths with a single burner primus - like today's modern mini transat.
    There are plenty of trailer sailers to choose from. Here is the NZ list. https://www.nztya.nz/trailer-yacht-designs.html
    There are a few tupperware boats in this list, but plenty of wooden ones.
    Personally I would go for a 6.5 to 7.8 metre, Elliot, Young, Given or Ross design.
    All had big rigs and ballasted lifting keels.......so they would sail like stink when the weather was fine and you would be in a safe anchorage for when the cold front came through.
    No point being the last yacht to the yacht club....

  25. #60
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    John Welsford's query about what constitutes a trailer-able boat and what are you talking about when you suggest "OFFSHORE CAPABLE"??

    I am thinking about a 2000 lb's / 1000 kg, with a draft less than 2 ft / 60 cm on the trailer, capable of being towed and launched by a relatively normal mid sized car and launched at a normal ramp.....and rigged for sailing in a fairly short time, without too much grunting.

    For "offshore" I am not so much thinking trans-ocean, so much as exposed near coastal, say easily able to accomplish a few hundred miles, with some attention to weather. You will still need a good boat for temperate latitude passages.
    Say Vancouver Island to Haida Gwaii ~170nm across southern Hecate Straite

  26. #61
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    One question I guess that should be asked is: Is this for Fun? Stuart Trueman paddled "All the Way Around" in a 21' (I think) kayak, But he's the first to admit that it really wasn't much fun.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    John Welsford's query about what constitutes a trailer-able boat and what are you talking about when you suggest "OFFSHORE CAPABLE"??

    I am thinking about a 2000 lb's / 1000 kg, with a draft less than 2 ft / 60 cm on the trailer, capable of being towed and launched by a relatively normal mid sized car and launched at a normal ramp.....and rigged for sailing in a fairly short time, without too much grunting.

    For "offshore" I am not so much thinking trans-ocean, so much as exposed near coastal, say easily able to accomplish a few hundred miles, with some attention to weather. You will still need a good boat for temperate latitude passages.
    Say Vancouver Island to Haida Gwaii ~170nm across southern Hecate Straite
    Please see my post 59 above but you are very close to the mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    One question I guess that should be asked is: Is this for Fun? Stuart Trueman paddled "All the Way Around" in a 21' (I think) kayak, But he's the first to admit that it really wasn't much fun.
    I'm interested in doing some long coastal trips but as I mentioned in #59 it is easy to get caught out on the Australian East coast with all the possible safe harbours having nasty river bars, thus the ability to weather more than the average dinghy is a serious consideration.
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  28. #63
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Obviously our tastes in boat differ a lot, Peter, but even allowing for that I wonder about the practicality of a heavy little boat for such purposes. Considering that, as you say, a southerly can blow for four days or more and can block out every haven from Coffs to Brisbane or the Gold Coast, IMHO you'd want to have something that was easily very easily beachable over a surf beach (ie a very, very light dinghy or cat like the Mirrors and 14ft surfcats that have cruised the coast) or something quick enough to go from one river to another quite quickly.

    I must confess, while I like most boats, I don't really understand the concept of a heavy displacement quart squeezed into a 18-22ft pint pot for this use. For ocean crossing, perhaps (although quite where the advantage is over a boat with the same dimensions spread over a greater length escapes me). For messing about the Solent, Narraganset Bay, Whitsundays or South Australian gulfs, yes. But in an area where you are so often restricted by the need to catch tides over widely-spread river bars, and where a small boat cannot find any significant shelter outside of those bars and must often tackle 1-3 knots of adverse set and headwinds, the lack of speed seems to be a significant issue.

    I'm new to northern NSW but didn't both Wee Barkie and Redwing have to abandon planned passages along the coast because of time issues, including the effect of the set and river bars on passages? And while I've never sailed one of John's boats, I'd be scared sh*tless sailing the most seaworthy dinghies I've ever sailed for 100 nm before a big southerly as it pushed into the East Australian Current and kicked up a swell that closed off every haven.

    Northern NSW is lovely - we've just bought a place here - but it's very short on cruising grounds. Even with the family's fast 36-38 footers we notice the lack of havens, compared to southern NSW or Queensland.
    Last edited by Chris249; 03-24-2018 at 03:05 AM.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    All correct Chris, perhaps my current 18 foot double ender is a better boat for this ....without me realising it. Either way, the feed back and general education I receive from a thread such as this is worth the possible embarrassment !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Feedback loops are good to confirm what we already know, or help us spot something we did not consider.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Exactly, I'm learning .
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  32. #67
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Obviously our tastes in boat differ a lot, Peter, but even allowing for that I wonder about the practicality of a heavy little boat for such purposes. Considering that, as you say, a southerly can blow for four days or more and can block out every haven from Coffs to Brisbane or the Gold Coast, IMHO you'd want to have something that was easily very easily beachable over a surf beach (ie a very, very light dinghy or cat like the Mirrors and 14ft surfcats that have cruised the coast) or something quick enough to go from one river to another quite quickly.

    I must confess, while I like most boats, I don't really understand the concept of a heavy displacement quart squeezed into a 18-22ft pint pot for this use. For ocean crossing, perhaps (although quite where the advantage is over a boat with the same dimensions spread over a greater length escapes me). For messing about the Solent, Narraganset Bay, Whitsundays or South Australian gulfs, yes. But in an area where you are so often restricted by the need to catch tides over widely-spread river bars, and where a small boat cannot find any significant shelter outside of those bars and must often tackle 1-3 knots of adverse set and headwinds, the lack of speed seems to be a significant issue.

    I'm new to northern NSW but didn't both Wee Barkie and Redwing have to abandon planned passages along the coast because of time issues, including the effect of the set and river bars on passages? And while I've never sailed one of John's boats, I'd be scared sh*tless sailing the most seaworthy dinghies I've ever sailed for 100 nm before a big southerly as it pushed into the East Australian Current and kicked up a swell that closed off every haven.

    Northern NSW is lovely - we've just bought a place here - but it's very short on cruising grounds. Even with the family's fast 36-38 footers we notice the lack of havens, compared to southern NSW or Queensland.
    I reckon the East Coast of Oz is horrendous. For all the reasons you describe.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    It does seem to be a translation issue; here "offshore" is outside a harbour. I tend to think that the shape of many of our harbours, ports and rivers means that there's a more sudden transition between "inshore" and "offshore" which may affect the terminology, and along much of the coast there's a ground swell almost all of the time that makes it feel very different to sailing off some places in the UK, Europe or USA.
    It's really because it's a long way to Tonga.

    Rick

  34. #69
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    What about a Scamp? We really get great weather information these days so you could sail a Scamp in short hops along our coast. There are plenty of places to stop in the right weather - plan accordingly! Quick and economical to build, good strong little boat that can be dragged onto a beach. Tour the Clarence, Myall Lakes, Pt Stephens, Hawkesbury, Sydney Harbour, Gippsland Lakes or go north.

    Assuming you don't want to sail to Tonga.

    Rick

  35. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I reckon the East Coast of Oz is horrendous. For all the reasons you describe.


    And beautiful. From Southport, North, inside it's a beautiful place you could spend weeks on a boat. Ballina is interesting. Iluka and Yamba are brilliant and are just the gateway to the Clarence system. Coffs is worth a look just to shake your head at opportunities gone. South West Rocks rocks. Port Stephens is several years worth of exploration, as is the Hawkesbury end of Sydney. Then there is Sydney. Indescribably wonderful as a destination and a boating ground. Jervis Bay has a season's worth of exploration without thinking too hard. Twofold Bay the same. Five of those with no bar. That's just some of the places I know. Of course, you could go north from Sibbo's hunting ground not south. If you are not too old by the time you've sailed Jim to half of those places just start on the other half.

    You're welcome.


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