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Thread: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

  1. #491
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Thanks Tom and John, approval from them wot know !
    I've not sailed a Golant gaffer but I am surprised to see the 'slow' comment somewhere. I really admired Graeme Forrest's boat and after he sold her I saw her in the Bay of Islands. It got along fine , I sailed up and past her in Riada and had a good look. Neat boat. I don't see any mystery in how to make one go, large wetted surface means they need to be clean ( easy at the beach in shallow water), and once the sailor gets over the worst advice in sailing gaff rigs to be known to man " you have to sail them freeee, ease the mainsheet out..." I'm sure they'd go plenty well enough.

  2. #492
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    So in those conditions, if somehow caught outside, being able to ''bugger off out'' ..... and survive seems to be the only option.
    I guess it depends on your local coastline, the photos I posted are of our closest local beach, but within 15 miles we have the ports of Portsmouth and Gloucester both excellent deep water ports which can be entered under most conditions with out encountering waves as dangerous as breakers on a bar or beach, we also have Salem, Boston, Province Town and Portland within a days sail... so quite a few options besides having to wait it out off shore.

  3. #493
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    For me, outside here, the nearest no bar entry is 75 miles North, a while to get there in any but the best conditions.
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  4. #494
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    So in those conditions, if somehow caught outside, being able to ''bugger off out'' ..... and survive seems to be the only option.
    A lot of small boats would be able to do that given sea room, but if you're on a lee shore and depend on good windward ability then... (teeth sucking sound)...

  5. #495
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    True.
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  6. #496
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Suppose a small boat is stuck outside in pretty rough stuff and can't hold her own to windward, what about a really big anchor. Do you reckon if the anchor was big enough that the small boat might be able to ride to that without dragging or ripping her bitts out? Never tried myself, but perhaps worthy of thought?

  7. #497
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Golant Gaffers aren't slow boats at all. In fact they're quick, especially for the type. Sailed alongside a few and my lasting memory was apart from looking good, is that they were moving fast. My Piper 24 got past one upwind just in a F1-2 but I don't have any interior, a much racier boat. Downwind he would have creamed me. Its a canoe body hull with an attatched keel rather than being 'built down'.



    Offwind down the Solent, the smaller lighter gaffers usually make ground on the standard 30-45ft white boats, which isn't what the Bavaria owners expect as they look over their shoulder. Best one for this is the Memory 19...no wetted area and a massive rig, esp the racing version. The Memory 19 take their lead ballast blocks out before trailering home. The Capecutters are good too, but for a stripper, the GG are a good choice, a very solid alongshore cruising boat. They have a fair bit of volume to them. Out of the water in the yard, it's a different much bigger thing than a standard 20ft trailer sailer. Seen a few with Yanmar IGM 1 inboards. Dongray knows his stuff. His boats are always well mannered. Chap sailed his GG out to Azores and back from Blighty. Its whether the keel depth is too much for what you want to do. They are definitely not slow boats Peter. Gaff rigs off the wind are in their element. After looking at the Gartside Itchen Ferry, dad thought the GG was alot better laid out down below. I didn't go to see the Gartside Itchen Ferry so can't comment personally, but I do remember he preferred the GG. Dad actually bought it, but then got gazumped! Its more a boat to have craned out onto a trailer though and for creek crawling you'd want a centerboarder. You'd have to dry a GG out on legs.

    On the subject of strip built gaff centerboarders, nobody's mentioned the lesser spotted Oughtred Farne Islander.


    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-16-2018 at 05:58 AM.

  8. #498
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Thanks for the GG review Ed, it sounds quite suitable and even capable of some decent alongshore legs.
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  9. #499
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    For me, outside here, the nearest no bar entry is 75 miles North, a while to get there in any but the best conditions.
    Where do you sail out of, Peter? Coffs Harbour looks fairly sheltered, but I've only seen it in a Northwesterly....breaking over the jetty behind Muttonbird.

  10. #500
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?



    GG alternative, in strip, but less draft.

  11. #501
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Kittiwake 1650 kg. Certainly more room at 22' but on the outer edge for trailering.
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  12. #502
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    With all this talk of lee shores and windward ability I can't help but think that few, if any, of these salty looking pocket cruisers really have the power, or aerodynamic cleanliness (especially when reefed) to reliably beat into much weather, except in the flattest of conditions.

    I suppose that is why have repeatedly come back to something like a Tiki 21 - it may not be the best windward performer in calm conditions but I bet it's sail carrying power and clean rig come into their own as things get nastier, even though it's shallow draught would count against it.

  13. #503
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Golant Gaffers aren't slow boats at all. In fact they're quick,

    Offwind down the Solent, the smaller lighter gaffers usually make ground on the standard 30-45ft white boats, which isn't what the Bavaria owners expect as they look over their shoulder.
    I'm NOT saying that speed is important, or denigrating slower boats. However, if comparisons are going to be made, perhaps we could look at England's biggest yacht race, which runs partly through the same Solent. At 50 miles, the length is not too far off the distance from port to port around northern NSW and southern Queensland, and as a round-the-island course it doesn't put too much emphasis on windward sailing.

    The last few years of results shows that the Golant Gaffers consistently take about 12 hours, some 3 to 4 fours longer than the top Folkboat and about 1.5 hours longer than the last Folkboat. The top Folkboats are normally closer to boats like the 130ft Herreshoff Eleanora or to the modern carbon-fibre 40ft racers than they are to the GGs.

    The good "standard 30-45ft white boats" like cruising Bennys, Hanses and Bavarias with roller furling sails beat the GGs easily, by four to three hours. The little "average white boat" cruiser/racers with dacron roller furling sails are consistently about three hours faster (Beneteau 21s) to about one hour faster than the GGs, even when they are '70s boats with old roller furling sails like the little Etap 20 or this little Seal 22. Even the Westerly Centaurs, a 1960's bilge-keel 26ft cruiser, seem to beat the GGs home by 45 minutes. While the GGs are very small boats, the evidence seems to indicate that they are not particularly quick even for 19 footers.

    To repeat, there is NOTHING wrong with not being all that fast, and NOTHING wrong with the GG. One can only applaud anyone who loves them and wish them the best of times. However in the spirit of fairness perhaps it should be recognised that the GGs don't seem to be as quick as a 30-45 foot standard white boat, and that in a passage as long as many of the ones in northern NSW and southern Qld, the owner of a 22ft "average white boat" or Folkboat may often be snugly cooking dinner at anchor when the owner of a boat like a GG is anxiously trying to get over the bar before the tide turns and condemns them to a sleepless night sitting offshore.

  14. #504
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    But remember, the criteria includes ''trailerable'', and while a Folkboat is technically trailerable, especially a glass one. It wouldn't be fun.
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  15. #505
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Just in case I needed a reminder.
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  16. #506
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    But remember, the criteria includes ''trailerable'', and while a Folkboat is technically trailerable, especially a glass one. It wouldn't be fun.
    Sorry, I was just using the Folkboat as a measure to compare other boats against, because they are a classic and very popular design in that race and around the world. Should have made that clear.

    Yes, the FB would be a nightmare to launch around NNSW and SEQ and I didn't mean to imply that it was a good proposition for your trip.
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-17-2018 at 03:30 AM.

  17. #507
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Chris is right and so is Peter. Traditional cruising style boats will always be a little slower than most more modern boats which were largely affected in design by racing rules as they have developed. This is not a huge factor really, is you are cruisin. So you have to wait before going in. Not really very much of a problem 98% of the time.the other 2% of the time it is seldom more than a PITA.
    Peter is right in that the deeper ballasted boats like FB are much more complicated to trailer....and the launch is expensive.

  18. #508
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    As I've said before, I think a slow boat that won't go well to windward is not really suitable for NSW coastal cruising. When seas come up from S winds here, enough to render a bar crossing hazardous, then you can be caught outside for many days, whether you wait it out or head for an open harbour. A lighter boat that can enter shallower harbours or a faster, more weatherly boat, is a better proposition in my opinion. Of course it depends on a person's patience and degree of affection for life in a lumpy sea, going nowhere, but I'd want something quicker or lighter than a Golant Gaffer.

    Rick

  19. #509
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    For me the best hidey hole in a South Easter is around the top of Moreton Island and into the bay.
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  20. #510
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Chris,

    You can't really compare classes on the Round the Island Race. The Round the Island Race doesn't start all boats at the same time. It's staggered over 3-4 hours. This is necessary due to the number of boats and the requirement for the smaller boats to be given the optimum time to get through the tide gate a Hurst in light weather. Different boat classes thus get different wind and different tide exposure (it runs 4 knots one way then the other).

    The Folkboats/ Contessa 26's/ H boat class get the best start time, which is why people buy them to compete in the race to win the Gold Roman Bowl trophy. Not only that but the Folkboat class and this racing class for the RIR is fairly competitive, people will buy a spinnaker suited for the weather condtitions in 5 days time for instance, completely empty the boat out, have new sails etc. They will be racers who are out twice a week racing in the Solent, the Golant Gaffer guy won't have a spinnaker and the extra crew, will be taking his boat in cruising trim and beers in the modern gaffers class. Likely his only race of the year. Different boats race well in different conditions.

    Off the wind, no spinnaker, small gaffers go very well indeed. That's when they creep up on bigger stuff not setting a spinnkaer/ gennaker in light air due to the greater sail area to wetted area/ displacement ratio: - big main sails (especially helped with a topsail) of the correct lower aspect ratio for off the wind efficiency. They can't point the last 10 degrees upwind, but offwind with a big mainsail they perform strongly. Peter's route is offwind. Its a perfectly sound choice, that's not even considering the shorter mast for trailering.

    As you bear away, bermudan's go limp. In comparison with gaffers it's like holding on the reigns of a galloping horse. You can feel it through your fingers, the rig still makes power. That's been my experience anyway.

    Memory 19 in Round the Island.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-17-2018 at 05:05 AM.

  21. #511
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Edward, you're right that start times are an issue. Because of that, I also compared the little gaffers with boats on similar start times, and with boats starting before as well as boats starting afterwards. They still don't come out as being very fast (not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that).

    In some years there was only 50 minutes between the GG start and the Folkboat start, and yet the Folkboats easily passed the GGs and similar boats and beat them home by hours. Several ISC classes (containing lots of those mid-sized cruising Bavarias and standard white boats) start 30-40 minutes behind the little gaffers and yet many of them finish three hours earlier. Other ISC classes, including other 30-45 ft standard white boats like Oceanis 37s, start well behind the little gaffers and finish well ahead. If the smaller gaffers were that fast, then they couldn't get passed by boats starting shortly after them, and by boats starting well after them.

    Yes, some of the Folkboats. Contessas, QTs etc are keen, but as noted I also specifically looked up pics of boats to make sure that I was comparing like to like. As noted above, many of the boats that beat the GGs soundly had old roller furling sails and no spinnaker gear, and showed no signs of being racers. For example, the Centaurs that beat the GGs home are 26ft 1960s bilge keel cruisers - and yet they regularly start well after the small gaffers, pass them, and finish well ahead. No matter what the tide does, that is not possible if the boat is slower. And with respect, if we're going to rely on personal accounts of how fast small gaffers are then we must also listen just as attentively to the many personal accounts of how slow small gaffers are.

    As Rick says above, Peter's trip isn't normally downwind. One has to account for the fact that you can head out in great winds and a good forecast, only to find headwinds after the tide has turned and it is no longer safe to turn around and go back over the bar. I've had too many 40 mile trips on this coast where forecast soldier's winds turned into light (or heavy) headwinds part-way to feel sanguine about sailing a boat that won't sail fast upwind.
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-17-2018 at 07:05 AM.

  22. #512
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    For me the best hidey hole in a South Easter is around the top of Moreton Island and into the bay.
    Quite a trek from the Tweed to the top of Moreton Is.

    Rick

  23. #513
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    My bad, I meant around the top end of North Stradbroke, South of Moreton Is.
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  24. #514
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    You could do that in Jim but can yachts get through that channel in a sea?

    Rick

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Chris,

    Obviously over an upwind-downwind timed event, a bermudan always wins out owning to the time spent beating to and fro to windward. I referred to their relative merits offwind - broad reach to downwind: which is Peter's route before trailering back. And I don't blame him...circular coastal sailing gets repititious. Its the combined product of many of the traditional gaffers relatively high sail area to wetted area and the more efficient low aspect planform sail plan.

    Lets also be clear, all boats are slow. Most go at just above walking pace. If Peter really wanted to go North, he's just drive up there. It's not about saving time, it's about spending time.

  26. #516
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I'm NOT saying that speed is important, or denigrating slower boats. However, if comparisons are going to be made, perhaps we could look at England's biggest yacht race, which runs partly through the same Solent. At 50 miles, the length is not too far off the distance from port to port around northern NSW and southern Queensland, and as a round-the-island course it doesn't put too much emphasis on windward sailing.

    The last few years of results shows that the Golant Gaffers consistently take about 12 hours, some 3 to 4 fours longer than the top Folkboat and about 1.5 hours longer than the last Folkboat. The top Folkboats are normally closer to boats like the 130ft Herreshoff Eleanora or to the modern carbon-fibre 40ft racers than they are to the GGs.

    The good "standard 30-45ft white boats" like cruising Bennys, Hanses and Bavarias with roller furling sails beat the GGs easily, by four to three hours. The little "average white boat" cruiser/racers with dacron roller furling sails are consistently about three hours faster (Beneteau 21s) to about one hour faster than the GGs, even when they are '70s boats with old roller furling sails like the little Etap 20 or this little Seal 22. Even the Westerly Centaurs, a 1960's bilge-keel 26ft cruiser, seem to beat the GGs home by 45 minutes. While the GGs are very small boats, the evidence seems to indicate that they are not particularly quick even for 19 footers.

    To repeat, there is NOTHING wrong with not being all that fast, and NOTHING wrong with the GG. One can only applaud anyone who loves them and wish them the best of times. However in the spirit of fairness perhaps it should be recognised that the GGs don't seem to be as quick as a 30-45 foot standard white boat, and that in a passage as long as many of the ones in northern NSW and southern Qld, the owner of a 22ft "average white boat" or Folkboat may often be snugly cooking dinner at anchor when the owner of a boat like a GG is anxiously trying to get over the bar before the tide turns and condemns them to a sleepless night sitting offshore.
    twelve hours is perfect. Leave and hour befor high tide, get there an hour before high tide. The folk boat might spend 3 hours hive too to wait for the right tide?

  27. #517
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Random reminiscence, I have never been so tired in my life as the night we entered Moreton bay and went through to the port to clear in. Literally fell asleep on my feet, which wasn't an issue , we had all of us on watch to finish the passage. I forget how far it was exactly but following the channels ( because it was dark) I recall it being something like 25 miles as the crow flies, but double that across the ground.

  28. #518
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I have bad memories of Moreton Bay and going around the top of Moreton Island to head south. It's not a nice place at all.

  29. #519
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    You could do that in Jim but can yachts get through that channel in a sea?

    Rick
    It seems to vary, something to investigate. Last time I was up there I saw a big trawler come through, but in good weather.
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  30. #520
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Chris,

    Obviously over an upwind-downwind timed event, a bermudan always wins out owning to the time spent beating to and fro to windward. I referred to their relative merits offwind - broad reach to downwind: which is Peter's route before trailering back. And I don't blame him...circular coastal sailing gets repititious. Its the combined product of many of the traditional gaffers relatively high sail area to wetted area and the more efficient low aspect planform sail plan.

    Lets also be clear, all boats are slow. Most go at just above walking pace. If Peter really wanted to go North, he's just drive up there. It's not about saving time, it's about spending time.
    Downwind cruising isn't really much of an option on our coast. The most regular wind is summer NE but that's a very uncomfortable wind for cruising and most people don't really do it. SE winds are also very sloppy off our coast. Most coastal cruising is done in the winter months, taking advantage of W wind windows which usually last several days. Coastal cruising our coast usually involves fairly long legs during weather windows, and long waits in-between. The faster the boat, the greater advantage can be taken of windows and shorter windows can also be used.

    We usually have significant swell and the combination of onshore winds and a coast with few breaks makes it pretty sloppy in most conditions. That's fine for travelling from port to port, and it's a lovely coast but it's not an area that you really want to be sitting out in for too long in a small boat. I actually find the intimation that people advocating faster boats are in a hurry or not real salties, or something, pretty annoying. It's not about speed. It's about suitability of different craft for a specific area. A slow little gaffer is fine for zipping off to NZ or the islands and terrific for cruising in the trades. But for this particular coast, such a boat is going to spend a lot more time waiting for suitable weather than other boats and the risk of having to stand off for many days or slog back to wherever you came from is very real here. There's a good reason why you very rarely see little gaffers etc. cruising our coast. There are plenty of them in Tasmania, in Sydney Harbour and Melbourne but cruising the coast? Not very often do we see them here.

    Rick

  31. #521
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    For me, outside here, the nearest no bar entry is 75 miles North, a while to get there in any but the best conditions.
    Tweed to Southport is 15 nm. On a good day you can cross the Tweed bar a bit before the start of the flood tide. You would be looking at 4-5 hours sailing with hopefully an hours flood in hand to get in through the Southport Seaway and to an anchorage either at the wave break island or off the west side of South Stradbroke.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  32. #522
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Downwind cruising isn't really much of an option on our coast. The most regular wind is summer NE but that's a very uncomfortable wind for cruising and most people don't really do it. SE winds are also very sloppy off our coast. Most coastal cruising is done in the winter months, taking advantage of W wind windows which usually last several days. Coastal cruising our coast usually involves fairly long legs during weather windows, and long waits in-between. The faster the boat, the greater advantage can be taken of windows and shorter windows can also be used.

    We usually have significant swell and the combination of onshore winds and a coast with few breaks makes it pretty sloppy in most conditions. That's fine for travelling from port to port, and it's a lovely coast but it's not an area that you really want to be sitting out in for too long in a small boat. I actually find the intimation that people advocating faster boats are in a hurry or not real salties, or something, pretty annoying. It's not about speed. It's about suitability of different craft for a specific area. A slow little gaffer is fine for zipping off to NZ or the islands and terrific for cruising in the trades. But for this particular coast, such a boat is going to spend a lot more time waiting for suitable weather than other boats and the risk of having to stand off for many days or slog back to wherever you came from is very real here. There's a good reason why you very rarely see little gaffers etc. cruising our coast. There are plenty of them in Tasmania, in Sydney Harbour and Melbourne but cruising the coast? Not very often do we see them here.

    Rick
    sounds like Peter needs to move to better cruising grounds... if he really wants to cruise.

    I mean why waste time trying to do something where it does not work well, it's like trying to go powder skiing in Connecticut... better off picking a different hobby OR going to where there is decent powder skiing.

  33. #523
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geftb View Post
    twelve hours is perfect. Leave and hour befor high tide, get there an hour before high tide. The folk boat might spend 3 hours hive too to wait for the right tide?
    Twelve hours is perfect for what leg? The 60 mile one? The 35 mile one inside a ten-hour weather and tide window? Or the boat as fast as a Folkboat may do the 60 miles in 12 hours comfortably, while the slower boat misses that tide and the skipper gets to struggle to stay awake all night, dodging trawlers and looking for crab pots and hoping the weather doesn't change.

    Surely it's better to have the option to heave to and wait, or to go to the next port, rather than missing the tide if conditions are imperfect.

  34. #524
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Downwind cruising isn't really much of an option on our coast. The most regular wind is summer NE but that's a very uncomfortable wind for cruising and most people don't really do it. SE winds are also very sloppy off our coast. Most coastal cruising is done in the winter months, taking advantage of W wind windows which usually last several days. Coastal cruising our coast usually involves fairly long legs during weather windows, and long waits in-between. The faster the boat, the greater advantage can be taken of windows and shorter windows can also be used.

    We usually have significant swell and the combination of onshore winds and a coast with few breaks makes it pretty sloppy in most conditions. That's fine for travelling from port to port, and it's a lovely coast but it's not an area that you really want to be sitting out in for too long in a small boat. I actually find the intimation that people advocating faster boats are in a hurry or not real salties, or something, pretty annoying. It's not about speed. It's about suitability of different craft for a specific area. A slow little gaffer is fine for zipping off to NZ or the islands and terrific for cruising in the trades. But for this particular coast, such a boat is going to spend a lot more time waiting for suitable weather than other boats and the risk of having to stand off for many days or slog back to wherever you came from is very real here. There's a good reason why you very rarely see little gaffers etc. cruising our coast. There are plenty of them in Tasmania, in Sydney Harbour and Melbourne but cruising the coast? Not very often do we see them here.

    Rick
    +1.

  35. #525
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Twelve hours is perfect for what leg? The 60 mile one? The 35 mile one inside a ten-hour weather and tide window? Or the boat as fast as a Folkboat may do the 60 miles in 12 hours comfortably, while the slower boat misses that tide and the skipper gets to struggle to stay awake all night, dodging trawlers and looking for crab pots and hoping the weather doesn't change.

    Surely it's better to have the option to heave to and wait, or to go to the next port, rather than missing the tide if conditions are imperfect.
    Im talking about peter sailing north every now and then. If he gets caught out I would be very surprised. I think it's a great boat for him. If you get "caught out" between tweed and the Gold Coast you probably shouldn't be sailing at all.

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