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Thread: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

  1. #666

    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    The little 19ft ferro. keel boat Roger Taylor built in N.Z. and crossed the Tasman sea twice was named" ROC" (Roger's Oceangoing Cruiser")

  2. #667
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Where would you put Roger Taylor and Ming Ming? I donít think he would call himself hardcore. He as done many miles offshore and though his type of sailing may not appeal to most he has some good thoughts of offshore boats. Having seen how wild the sea can be from 18,000 to 314,000 toners offshore sailing is not for me.

    He also took one of his previous boats Rock across the Tasmin in some serious weather.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    If a person wasn't interested in class racing and wanted a tiny cruising boat based on a Folkboat I wonder what rig would best suffice, the main requirement being ease of single handedly erecting the mast(s) and a minimum of rigging.

    Im pretty sure a deck stepped aluminium mast like on the IF, would be no issue to raise if set up with some guy ropes, or preferably a good tabernacle. I know the mast on the Baycruiser 26 weighs only 13kg/26lbs, but that's quite an expensive option in carbon.

    I did have thoughts of rebuilding mine in the style of Jester, complete with junk rig, but the crane issue would have still been there. Compromises......

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    [QUOTE=Daniel Noyes;5589

    I guess I'm a bit confused about the "Noelex" as it does not seem available in wood or any plans sets available for home builders...? this is the "Wooden" boat forum.


    I guess there is an almost limitless list of trailerable F-glass boats that someone could take the lines from and strip build with appropriate know how and time and money...
    [/QUOTE]
    Dont be confused. It was just a silly idea I came up with. I guess you could build one in strip plank or cold moulded. But why would you? I was really just having a chuckle that this thread has gone on for so long and is still going. I'm sure there are a number of small boats that could take Peter coastal cruising down Queensland. But once you drop out of the shelter of the reef it's a pretty horrible coastline with nothing until New Zealand, and no harbours that are accessible in bad weather. Despite what Rick has said about weather forecasting, it continues to be fairly hit and miss from time to time and there is every chance of being caught out in a blow at some stage. A small light shallow draft boat might survive hove to but it's a pretty dodgy proposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    I think the NIS 23 that crossed Bass straight was lucky, I dont think they are serious offshore boats but pretty good for short hops, the one that we had here was notoriously useless on the wind and didnt really handle heavy air at all.
    The features that make them offshore capable are the good range of stability, reported to be around 140 degrees, but not verified. They seem to be more than strong enough. My only area of concern is the 6mm plywood cabin top, but it is well supported by the bulkheads and the sliding hatch carlins and handrails.

    Modern series drogues have made life much safer offshore, and I wouldn't take a small boat far offshore without one. So I'd be pretty comfortable in a NIS23 well offshore provided it was well set up, tested and I'd done some sort of roll over test, but prehaps I fall into the nutter subcategory...

    The lack of power to windward in a big sea is a concern, but mostly when coastal sailing, and it is a fault shared with most light trailerable boats. A parachute sea anchor, good forecasting and a prudent amount of searoom deals with this problem well enough.

    I don't personally think Robert Ayliffe was lucky, he had done his preparation, had a sound well setup and tested boat, and a good forecast. Probably he was far safer out in Bass Strait on his NIS 23 than on your typical highway at 100 Km/h in a car.

    I am interested to hear more details of the heavy weather issues you saw with the NIS.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    While "mainstream" sailors may be ignorant of traditional rigs, the reverse can also often be said
    That's certainly true in my case! Especially with modern rigs refined for speed and extensive sail shaping controls that, frankly, I'm not a good enough (or knowledgeable enough) sailor to know how to benefit from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    As noted, I was one of those who chucked in a vote for the cat ketch (in the form of the NIS) a few pages back and if I could sneak in an extra boat it would be a cat ketch (Storer Beth). My issue was not with the rig, but with incorrect claims made in regard to it.
    Yes, that's why I like your posts here. I learn a lot reading what you have to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    These aint trailer boats, keelboats are totally different vessels
    Ming Ming is most certainly a trailer sailor with all the advantages, when Roger went to Iceland he trailed it up to Scotland to be closer to the area he wanted to cruise.



    She is a Corribee which have been trailed all over Europe





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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    A small light shallow draft boat might survive hove to but it's a pretty dodgy proposition.
    If well set up, "dodgy" is replaced by "uncomfortable". If the boat is self righting and has positive flotation, that's a whole lot of positive mental security right there.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    now that is seriously ugly LOL
    Well the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company doesn't sell many boats these days...

    We have to give them credit for a high aspect fin with a lead bulb that swings up. That improves windward performance, lowers trailer weight and/ or improves stability.

    It's also notable that this layout can take upto a 70hp outboard and run at 15 knots if you wanted to get through a tidal gate or motor through a bar break at wave speeds. The smaller one, the 210 planned would be under Peter's weight limit. It's not home buildable, but the ideas are transferable.

    It's worth stating that very accurate 5 day weather forecasting should mean that planned offshore micro cruises can be accomplished by what used to be termed 'day sailers'. In the pre selected conditions, they will be capable enough. If a strong front was coming in, you wouldn't go. You'd only go with a good forecast: in reality it's actually a no wind situation that has to be planned for with engine reliability/ fuel usage/ efficiency, not 50 knots plus winds. Offshore capable, is a spectrum, and how heavy, how big the AVS etc, is only widening the potential alongshore weather window. The point is mute though when looking at a lee shore, which I think is Chris's point regarding speed.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-13-2018 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Unfortunately forecasting just isn't that good. It's mostly that good, but not always. And speed in normal conditions is no use if you can't get off a lee shore in 50 knots.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    ^ I think much of Swallowboats input into new boats comes from the people themselves, both in feedback from existing clients and what possible clients would like in a new boat; if it turns out "ugly" (an opinion), then maybe that is what the market wants. You can argue a Porsche speedster is a beautifull thing, but a boxy volvo station wagon found more buyers.
    That boat ticks a lot of boxes for the masses, and it is a better sailer than the likes of a McGregor 26, Odin, or any of the other fast outboard trailer sailors. I might still want the option of sticking a small Yanmar in it though, just for increased range under power.
    Someone else pointed out the weight, i would like to see the internal structure keeping that in shape at only 1300kg, or perhaps, like many new boats, there is just not much inside. Is the market really there?

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Well the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company doesn't sell many boats these days...

    We have to give them credit for a high aspect fin with a lead bulb that swings up. That improves windward performance, lowers trailer weight and/ or improves stability.

    It's also notable that this layout can take upto a 70hp outboard and run at 15 knots if you wanted to get through a tidal gate or motor through a bar break at wave speeds. The smaller one, the 210 planned would be under Peter's weight limit. It's not home buildable, but the ideas are transferable.

    It's worth stating that very accurate 5 day weather forecasting should mean that planned offshore micro cruises can be accomplished by what used to be termed 'day sailers'. In the pre selected conditions, they will be capable enough. If a strong front was coming in, you wouldn't go. You'd only go with a good forecast: in reality it's actually a no wind situation that has to be planned for with engine reliability/ fuel usage/ efficiency, not 50 knots plus winds. Offshore capable, is a spectrum, and how heavy, how big the AVS etc, is only widening the potential alongshore weather window. The point is mute though when looking at a lee shore, which I think is Chris's point regarding speed.
    I would love to know where you are getting ‘very accurate 5 day weather forecasts’. I can’t get a 12 hour one of any accuracy.

    People who go to sea are mostly bound by a shore time agenda and it is this that leads to many incidents.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Unfortunately forecasting just isn't that good. It's mostly that good, but not always. And speed in normal conditions is no use if you can't get off a lee shore in 50 knots.
    To keep a long story short, both a Virgo Voyager 23 fitted with a 10hp Bukh, and a Najad 37 fitted with a Volvo 40hp+, both failed to work off a lee shore in North Spain in 50 knots. They did both manage to run for cover in Bayona, and i heard one other yacht hid behind the Isla Cies rather than risk coming into the bay. Apparently the wave crests were too big to power through and they found themselves being pushed ashore. Given enough sea room a drougue might help. The Virgo was a junk rigged bilge keeler, and the Najad had all the extras that "consumer yachties" find them self fitting
    , lots of ariels, in mast reefing, 3 furlers, goal post with radar and solar arrays and full cockpit canvas enclosure. I believe bog standard Najad would have sailed through it, if slowly, but all those extras ended up as a handicap, i believe.
    When you lay down a criteria of "must sail off a lee-shore in 50 Knots", you actually narrow down your list extensively, especially if it is designed also as a trailer sailor.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Dont be confused. It was just a silly idea I came up with. I guess you could build one in strip plank or cold moulded. But why would you? I was really just having a chuckle that this thread has gone on for so long and is still going. I'm sure there are a number of small boats that could take Peter coastal cruising down Queensland. But once you drop out of the shelter of the reef it's a pretty horrible coastline with nothing until New Zealand, and no harbours that are accessible in bad weather. Despite what Rick has said about weather forecasting, it continues to be fairly hit and miss from time to time and there is every chance of being caught out in a blow at some stage. A small light shallow draft boat might survive hove to but it's a pretty dodgy proposition.
    What Rick actually said was that even though forecasting for this coast is pretty good now, you can still get caught out in thunderstorms and other less predictable events. I think we get really good info for windows of about 3 days here. So a quick boat that can easily travel from harbour to harbour in a couple of days or a little boat that can go into the many shallower alternatives, are the best options, for a trailerable boat, here, in my opinion. A slow, small boat, that can't easily be beached, is not a good option for this coast. It can still be used but you'd just have fewer weather windows that are suitable.

    Our friend John Little seems to get around a fair bit in his Jim-like vessel. I really can't see why Jim wouldn't be suitable. Especially as it's the harbours, rivers, islands and lakes that are most interesting. Sailing from point to point offshore is pretty boring along our coast as it's so flat. It gets interesting out further and down south but I reckon you really want a cruising yacht for that.

    Rick

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I would love to know where you are getting ‘very accurate 5 day weather forecasts’. I can’t get a 12 hour one of any accuracy.
    The best, most comprehensive, and accurate forecast i was ever given was from RNAS Culdrose, which extended out 72 hours. The forecaster made it absolutely clear that anything over 72 hours is a wild guess. It was absolutely spot on and gave us a good window with some confidence to head off across Biscay. In different parts of the world, weather systems can be more stable and accurate to predict, but weather is fluid and always changing, generally i take a 48hr forecast and hope to be offshore enough to not worry about lee shores, or in the next port........does not always happen like that....

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    When you lay down a criteria of "must sail off a lee-shore in 50 Knots", you actually narrow down your list extensively, especially if it is designed also as a trailer sailor.[/QUOTE]

    That's an under statement if ever I saw one. Even a folkboat would not do that... she'd barely carry a handkerchief let alone enough to get to windward.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    When you lay down a criteria of "must sail off a lee-shore in 50 Knots", you actually narrow down your list extensively, especially if it is designed also as a trailer sailor.
    That's an under statement if ever I saw one. Even a folkboat would not do that... she'd barely carry a handkerchief let alone enough to get to windward.[/QUOTE]

    I have only met 2 people who genuinely had boats capable of doing that, and trailerable, both under 26ft, skinny, 6-7ft beam, but with at least 4ft draft and 60% ballast ratio. In one case he had to make his own 16sqft storm jib, as a sail maker refused the job as he did not believe anyone would actually need such a sail.......guess he never went cruising off Greenland.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    The world keeps turning.



    Weather in the UK is now imaged to a 1km resolution, so I really have no excuse for not sailing my dinghy to Norway from Shetland! It's just a question of having the balls and making time.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-13-2018 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    What Rick actually said was that even though forecasting for this coast is pretty good now, you can still get caught out in thunderstorms and other less predictable events. I think we get really good info for windows of about 3 days here. So a quick boat that can easily travel from harbour to harbour in a couple of days or a little boat that can go into the many shallower alternatives, are the best options, for a trailerable boat, here, in my opinion. A slow, small boat, that can't easily be beached, is not a good option for this coast. It can still be used but you'd just have fewer weather windows that are suitable.

    Our friend John Little seems to get around a fair bit in his Jim-like vessel. I really can't see why Jim wouldn't be suitable. Especially as it's the harbours, rivers, islands and lakes that are most interesting. Sailing from point to point offshore is pretty boring along our coast as it's so flat. It gets interesting out further and down south but I reckon you really want a cruising yacht for that.

    Rick
    JIM up this way and north and perhaps (not everyone's favorite), the Golant Gaffer down South,.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    The world keeps turning.



    Weather in the UK is now imaged to a 1km resolution, so I really have no excuse for not sailing my dinghy to Norway from Shetland! It's just a question of having the balls and making time.
    Is that graph from the National Union of Weather forecasters because I am not seeing anything close to that. “Forecast quality” probably covers temperature and rainfall weighted heavily against wind as the public are less concerned with wind. My club is about an hour away and I go up there more than half a dozen times a year and don’t get a sail because of an inaccurate forecast. I have used Willy Weather to chart forecast vs real weather - if it is a South Westerly above 15 knots it is frequently 25 knots plus - to my mind the forecasters don’t plug the actual wind into their models - way of thread now sorry but wind forecasts are at best 50% accurate a max of 12 hours out.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I dont know where you sail Tink, but local weather effects are a seperate issue. On the south coast here we have a particularly strong sea breeze in the summer to amplify or negate inshore winds, with changes in wind strength at the downdraft offshore. If thats happening, i'd reccommend this recent book by Alan Watts. From it you can predict when andif it will kick in. If you near any mountains that will cause some big local effects too. Its a very good read for a dinghy cruiser.


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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Weather forecasting today is massively better than ever before. I doubt any extreme weather events can sneak up on us anywhere, if you are paying attention.....Certainly you might get a local squall that is not forecast. This does happen on the inside of Vancouver Island, but pretty much does not happen on the West Coast.

    A shallow body boat can often work to windward in a gale better than most heavier deeper boats. Mr. Bolger wrote of this when describing the expected action of the 'Burgundy' in a sea, and for me pretty much confirmed by the motion of the Meadowlark, which I have easily worked to windward in winds between 30 and 40 knots, with seas between 2 to 3.5 metres. Shallow body boats like the Meadowlark tend not be stopped as easily by the waves and a deep belly boat. It takes less HP drive to move them. Otherwise why would all the serious offshore racing boats be light and flat...from the mini-6.5's to the open class boats....You need to be stiff enough to carry sail.....But those folks that are suggesting a shallow boat is just dodgy at best clearly have no relevant experience with a boat that can do it. Of course not all shallow boats are suitable.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I dont know where you sail Tink, but local weather effects are a seperate issue. On the south coast here we have a particularly strong sea breeze in the summer to amplify or negate inshore winds, with changes in wind strength at the downdraft offshore. If thats happening, i'd reccommend this recent book by Alan Watts. From it you can predict when andif it will kick in. If you near any mountains that will cause some big local effects too. Its a very good read for a dinghy cruiser.

    Thanks Edward, sorry for the earlier post, not as polite as expected on this forum, in pain and frustrated as unable to get in the workshop let alone afloat at the moment - sorry.

    I do have plenty of time so will have a look at Alan’s latest book, thanks

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Whilst we are doing apologies, sorry Rick, I didn't mean to misquote you. Couldn't be troubled trawling back through the thread to find your actual post so I went with my retained impression. Obviously conditions vary in different parts of the world, and boats that may be fine in some parts are not so fine in others. Having been caught out in a Southerly Buster a bit further down the coast than Peter is planning to venture, I can say with certainty it's not a place I'd like to be offshore, or close to a lee shore, in a small boat. We were able to drop all sail and put 120hp into it, and the autopilot meant that no one had to suffer much at all. But people here are saying it's all good if your boat is self righting from 130 degrees. I reckon when you are contemplating 130 degrees in any boat, that's not safe. It might be surviveable, with luck, but no way it's safe. Excepting dinghies with a rescue boat nearby of course.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Weather forecasting today is massively better than ever before. I doubt any extreme weather events can sneak up on us anywhere, if you are paying attention.....Certainly you might get a local squall that is not forecast. This does happen on the inside of Vancouver Island, but pretty much does not happen on the West Coast.

    A shallow body boat can often work to windward in a gale better than most heavier deeper boats. Mr. Bolger wrote of this when describing the expected action of the 'Burgundy' in a sea, and for me pretty much confirmed by the motion of the Meadowlark, which I have easily worked to windward in winds between 30 and 40 knots, with seas between 2 to 3.5 metres. Shallow body boats like the Meadowlark tend not be stopped as easily by the waves and a deep belly boat. It takes less HP drive to move them. Otherwise why would all the serious offshore racing boats be light and flat...from the mini-6.5's to the open class boats....You need to be stiff enough to carry sail.....But those folks that are suggesting a shallow boat is just dodgy at best clearly have no relevant experience with a boat that can do it. Of course not all shallow boats are suitable.
    Well said.

    As an example of the local squall issue, at the last yacht regatta around here the weather models forecast up to 25-30 knots the next day. In fact the next day's breeze peaked at 70.... That's at the southern end of the same area Peter wants to sail, I think, but conditions probably aren't that much more predictable further north. Obviously Peter may not have gone offshore when the worst forecast talked of 30 knots but the variation between forecast and actual conditions is the significant point.

    As to light boats and windward performance, an official Bureau of Meteorology report into the 1998 Sydney to Hobart stated that there were winds averaging 50 to 60 knots and gusting 70 to 80 knots during the race, with extreme wave heights from 13 to 15 metres. Boats as small as the 35' medium/light Midnight Rambler (top pic) went through it sailing at 60 degrees from the wind (ie close reaching) and actually made good about 170-150 miles south in 20+ hours through those conditions. Her navigator was a professional master mariner, so no noob, and the crew estimated the breeze to be topping out at 70.

    There were a couple of long keelers that encountered the same conditions - two of them sank. That is not criticising long keelers but it is indicating that there's a lot more to it than a simple "classic=safe, light=bad" equation.

    The 30ft version of Midnight Rambler can close reach fast and effectively in breezes of 45 knots (estimate from the crew of a classic yacht nearby, who had 200,000 miles experience and include a former USN officer) across Bass Strait, sitting on about 6 knots and under perfect control, although banging a lot. A 22-25 foot version would do pretty much the same.

    Efficient foils, good stability, fine bow sections, good sails and low drag are probably keys to such performance. The angle of the breeze and the wakes in these pics shows how well the boats are pointing. Around the time these pics were taken I think one of the planked long keelers was sinking and the other, a 'glass long keeler, was starting to founder.

    Richard Bennett pics.

    Midnight Rambler.jpg

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    Last edited by Chris249; 06-13-2018 at 08:25 PM.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Where did the 50 knots lee shore criteria come in anyway? Is that a real concern for that coast , like others say , forecasting is pretty good now and will at least give a warning to watch out for extremes.
    We get some pretty serious weather here too but somehow I've been able to spend the last 30 years mostly avoiding sailing in 50 knots. We've been in that on the coast and at sea too, but if its going to be sustained winds of that level we'd have some pretty serious indicators available in forecasts and weather models.
    I've had more misery in 25 knots and tide conflict than in 40 knots away from the current too, wind speed is an indicator of conditions of course....but wave height and short period is what hurts.
    I learnt about your East Australian current when Nina was lost , that would be a prime factor in coastal planning for you AU guys ,wouldn't it.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Whilst we are doing apologies, sorry Rick, I didn't mean to misquote you. Couldn't be troubled trawling back through the thread to find your actual post so I went with my retained impression. Obviously conditions vary in different parts of the world, and boats that may be fine in some parts are not so fine in others. Having been caught out in a Southerly Buster a bit further down the coast than Peter is planning to venture, I can say with certainty it's not a place I'd like to be offshore, or close to a lee shore, in a small boat. We were able to drop all sail and put 120hp into it, and the autopilot meant that no one had to suffer much at all. But people here are saying it's all good if your boat is self righting from 130 degrees. I reckon when you are contemplating 130 degrees in any boat, that's not safe. It might be surviveable, with luck, but no way it's safe. Excepting dinghies with a rescue boat nearby of course.
    After the Fastnet 79 and an assortment of Sidney-Hobart races, people in the yacht racing biz...designers and experienced sailors have really considered the seaworthiness in small yachts and developed new tools in assessing the ability of a boat in a hard chance. The ISO rules developed in Europe address this by defining sailing areas A through D....D being relatively sheltered waters and A being full offshore capable...... Different parts of the standards apply to Stability, Watertight integrity, cockpit draining etc. This has further been developed into the STIX numbers assigned to individual boats. The threshold for offshore wrt stability is about 130 degrees. The reasoning for this is that once you get the mast in the water your chance of still having it when/if you roll back up diminish significantly....Rolling over puts you instantly into a survival situation, and the chances are not that good. It is not actually that difficult to design a boat that will self right from 180 degrees, but there is serious doubt you gain more security than you loose in just about everything else. Some boats with sealed buoyant masts, suddenly double the righting moment when the masts immerse....Thinking of the Presto 30 here. The real intent I think is to ensure that a boat that is knocked down to mast in the water, has plenty of righting force to come back, because of course if you go much further, you very well might not have a mast, and have suffered damage to your watertight integrity...and be officially in a survival situation.
    If you don't like the odds ...stay home and wait for the movie.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Where did the 50 knots lee shore criteria come in anyway? Is that a real concern for that coast , like others say , forecasting is pretty good now and will at least give a warning to watch out for extremes.
    We get some pretty serious weather here too but somehow I've been able to spend the last 30 years mostly avoiding sailing in 50 knots. We've been in that on the coast and at sea too, but if its going to be sustained winds of that level we'd have some pretty serious indicators available in forecasts and weather models.
    I've had more misery in 25 knots and tide conflict than in 40 knots away from the current too, wind speed is an indicator of conditions of course....but wave height and short period is what hurts.
    I learnt about your East Australian current when Nina was lost , that would be a prime factor in coastal planning for you AU guys ,wouldn't it.
    I came up with the 50 knots, lee shore test. Just seems to me it's something that happens occasionally, perhaps rare these days, but shouldn't be discounted. I've been in that situation 3 or 4 times. I dunno, maybe I'm just careless. I dont think it's a great idea to be out on our East Coast in a boat where your chances of survival in those conditions become marginal.

  29. #694
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I came up with the 50 knots, lee shore test. Just seems to me it's something that happens occasionally, perhaps rare these days, but shouldn't be discounted. I've been in that situation 3 or 4 times. I dunno, maybe I'm just careless. I dont think it's a great idea to be out on our East Coast in a boat where your chances of survival in those conditions become marginal.
    I doubt very much if you are careless Phil.
    Of course I really don't know your coast and distances in AU are mind boggling compared to what we deal with here on the coast , or on land for that matter. Here I think the test I would use would be around the 25 to 30 mark at one end , budget for 20 a lot of the time . Most of our Northland coastal hops around say 25 miles with a 50 or 70 thrown in at a couple of stretches. So its still big miles in a 4 or 5 knot boat.

  30. #695
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    I think the NIS 23 that crossed Bass straight was lucky, I dont think they are serious offshore boats but pretty good for short hops, the one that we had here was notoriously useless on the wind and didnt really handle heavy air at all. .
    Thats an interesting perspective!, my recollection of the SM ( NIS) here was it performing really well for its size. I vaguely recall (and could understand) that hard on the wind might not be its best angle. Interesting footnote , that very boat we crawled over when you were thinking about buying it , its for sale again down in Nelson for the same money. approx.

  31. #696
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Where did the 50 knots lee shore criteria come in anyway? Is that a real concern for that coast , like others say , forecasting is pretty good now and will at least give a warning to watch out for extremes.
    We get some pretty serious weather here too but somehow I've been able to spend the last 30 years mostly avoiding sailing in 50 knots. We've been in that on the coast and at sea too, but if its going to be sustained winds of that level we'd have some pretty serious indicators available in forecasts and weather models.
    I've had more misery in 25 knots and tide conflict than in 40 knots away from the current too, wind speed is an indicator of conditions of course....but wave height and short period is what hurts.
    I learnt about your East Australian current when Nina was lost , that would be a prime factor in coastal planning for you AU guys ,wouldn't it.
    Yes. 50 knots is pretty rare here and further north. When it happens, we usually know it's coming. But, we do get thunderstorms and, sort of, tornado-like conditions, that can generate very strong wind, for a brief period. These can be really severe. However, storm conditions are usually predicted by the BOM and only a fool would take a little boat out when they're forecast.

    It's what I'm getting at when I suggest a little boat that can be brought in just about anywhere, or a fast, efficient boat that can use clear windows, are the best options. You need to avoid strong winds and thunderstorm conditions here or you're in danger, and others can be endangered coming to get you. A more seaworthy boat is safer, of course, but generally not trailerable. We've had our Folkboat out on flat water in a buster of close to 40 knots and that wasn't much fun. I'm glad I wasn't outside and certainly not for a week!

    Rick

  32. #697
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    If a person wasn't interested in class racing and wanted a tiny cruising boat based on a Dragon I wonder what rig would best suffice, the main requirement being ease of single handedly erecting the mast(s) and a minimum of rigging.

    Dragon instead of Folkboat
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  33. #698
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    A Dragon is not a sea boat at all, whatever rig you put on it. Brave people have undertaken ocean passages in both, but both were designed for a very different purpose - day racing. Folkboats were designed for rougher water than Dragons and are a much more seaworthy boat but really, not even a Folkboat is an ideal boat for coastal cruising. The standard Folkboat rig is so easy to use. You can sail a Folkboat in most conditions without using winches or even reefing. I can't see any point in changing the rig. I think if you want a boat with a collapsible rig, then don't get a Folkboat, let alone a Dragon.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 06-13-2018 at 11:28 PM.

  34. #699
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    To me the real thing is that you must be really prepared for heavy weather. you must have deep reefs and really comfortable with putting them in when needed. I have properly set up reefs and can tuck a reef (slab) in either the main or the mizzen in about 1 minute, and not stop sailing ( I ease the sheet on the sail I reef to unload it, tuck the reef, tie in the points, and sheet in. Meanwhile the boat is sailing, barely losing any speed) Do it repeatedly so that doing it right without forgetting any of the functional details, ( because the last time was ...oh 3 years ago....?). I have reefed both the main and mizzen in less than 2 minutes...timed. and never stopped actually sailing.....OK my boat is set up to do that, but I have done similar things on my old gaff cutter, or a marconi sloop. being properly trained is critical.
    I'll admit I have made a point of going out when there were really strong winds forecast, just to experiment with handling my boat in more challenging conditions. To me wind is really much less of a concern than sea conditions. Steep/high closely spaced seas are a real worry, and I get really conservative when the waves are "square". These conditions mostly happen in shallower near coastal waters.
    The Tasman sea and Bass Strait are noted for being really nasty because there is a lot of relatively shallow water there.

    Weather wise I think in today's world Weather forecasting is really reliable. Real storm force winds, for more than a local squall can almost always be predicted, and avoided, unless you are like me and go out to play.....

  35. #700
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Really good advice.

    Rick

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