An offshore capable trailer boat ?

[David G]

I've enjoyed the various suggestions, and marvel at how widely a simple design brief can be interpreted.

I'll throw in one suggestion that I think no on has mentioned so far - the Atkin 'Gretchen' with scuppered cockpit - http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Gretchen.html

[PeterSibley]

A nice shape David but I really don't like lee boards, I've used them and didn't enjoy them.

[Max F]

Hi Peter
Have you ever thought about a Cape Henry 21?
;-D Max

[FF]

I think indeed a multihull discussion should have its own thread.

[FF]

A nice shape David but I really don't like lee boards, I've used them and didn't enjoy them.

I like the design and think the leeboards look a bit out of place. Perhaps bilgeboards could replace them. Hidden in the fronts of seats, angling outward and with a good nacra profile they would not be to obtrusive?

[Edward Pearson]

A Wolstenholme Norfolk Gypsy. A Gretchen would look something similar...



I've recently wondered if plans for the Ed Burnett/ Nigel Irens Romilly strip plank version are still available?

[Clarkey]

I think indeed a multihull discussion should have its own thread.

Why? There are numerous examples of 'offshore capable trailer boats' that are multihulls.

[PeterSibley]

I like the design and think the leeboards look a bit out of place. Perhaps bilgeboards could replace them. Hidden in the fronts of seats, angling outward and with a good nacra profile they would not be to obtrusive?

My thoughts too..... as per Eun Mara.

[PeterSibley]

A Wolstenholme Norfolk Gypsy. A Gretchen would look something similar...



I've recently wondered if plans for the Ed Burnett/ Nigel Irens Romilly strip plank version are still available?

Too big and heavy for me to consider trailering her Ed.

[Edward Pearson]

I looked over a Bayraider Expedition at the Southampton boat show. It's got alot to like. Waterballasted when needed so it self rights, can plane if you push it, has a cabin if the mossies are a problem, mizzen to hold it to wind at anchor and it's light - 500kg or so. You'd certainly be able to avoid yard fees and be able to trailer it. These boats are more work to put in and out compared to a boat like Jim though.

You'll like your Jim. The Tirrik we had was similar (but a metal plate) and it felt very good in waves. With your fore and side decks, you have a very capable boat already. I think I'd be packing a bimini, snorkel, flippers, a reef fish guide, Danforth and a Fisherman. The Ness Yawl type boats are much quicker and less intimidating to trailer in and out than the 20ft transom 1 ton plus trailer sailers.

I regret not buying the NY Alba when she was for sale years ago from Iain.



A chap built the smaller version to yours, Lillie and she looked very nice at Beale. Think she got 1st prize!

[FF]

Peter, do you have a maximum weight of the boat in mind, I mean dry weight, that you would lug around?

[PeterSibley]

Yes, Lillie is very pretty. There was one at the last Hobart Wooden Boat Festival. Stitch and glue. Jim is similar but larger all around.

P2120989.jpg

[sharpiefan]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I skimmed the thread but did not see Ross Lillistone's Little Egret mentioned.



IMAGE: Little Egret: She measures 18' 10-1/4" LOA, 4' 9-3/4" Beam, and draws about 6"

Excerpt
I was brought up on the shores of Moreton Bay in south-east Queensland, Australia. Moreton Bay is a huge expanse of water protected from the open Pacific Ocean by a line of huge barrier islands - the bay itself being 100 kilometres long and 32 kilometres across at its widest point. The waters of this great waterway are open and deep to the north, but large portions of it, particularly in the southern half, are shallow and protected. As a friend once said to me, "There is a lot of water in Moreton Bay, but it is spread out very thin!" This sort of coastal area is, in my opinion, a magnificent location for dinghy cruising.


Egret was designed by Ralph Munroe to act as an ambulance, mail boat, and water taxi for the early residents of Biscayne Bay in Southern Florida. Here is a short description in Ralph M. Munroe's own words;

"The difficulties of beach travel being thoroughly realized, and the Weather Bureau having established a telegraph line to Jupiter, it seemed imperative that something in the boat line superior to any of the existing craft for this work should be obtained. So in the summer of 1886, to replace Kingfish, I had built at Brown's the 28-foot double-ended sharpie lifeboat, Egret, very strongly but lightly constructed. She drew eight inches, and had only fifty to seventy-five bricks, laid under the floor, for ballast. She was fitted with all the appurtenances needed to keep the sea in almost any weather, and if necessary to be put on the beach without harm. That she fulfilled all requirements until the first road was opened the older residents can testify."
(excerpted from The Commodore's Story by Ralph Middleton Munroe and Vincent Gilpin - Historical Society of Southern Florida)

Like many others, I have found myself under the spell of Egret's superb lines, which could be described as a cross between a sharpie and a dory. Her swept-up stern and distribution of buoyancy put me stronly in mind of our Australian Surfboats, so the combination of the three hullforms gives her a wonderful pedegree.

* * * * * * * * * *

Several months ago I was approached by a fellow who has also been in love with Egret for a very long time. For nearly thirty years, on and off, he had been searching for plans which would allow the building of an Egret-like boat of around 18 feet LOA. He had become frustrated with the search, not being able to locate exactly what he was after, but a chance occurrence put him in contact with me, and he gave me the opportunity to try my hand at a modern interpretation.

Scaling the size of a boat up or down introduces many hydrostatic and hydrodynamic complications, so I did not in anyway attempt to copy Egret. In fact, as disciplinary measure, I refused to look at any of my original Egret plans until the hull modelling was complete - that way I knew that I was drawing an entirerly new design - inspired by Egret but not copied.

"Little Egret" - an Egret-style Sharpie (ARTICLE LINK)

Little Egret - A Munroe-style sharpie nearing completion (ARTICLE LINK)

#include [std-disclaimer]

[Craic]

Peter Sibley,
I can recommend to take an already very capable boat, and beef it up further. Saves time, money and avoids disappointments.
In my case, it was to retrofit a watertight cabin hatch, and to add buoyancy to the superstructure so as to make the boat roll back unaided from a possible inversion at sea.
There was a thread here a few years ago. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...hallow+draught . Some photos of the finished boat at postings #67 and 69 .
http://i.imgur.com/b27vcyR.jpg

[PeterSibley]

Thanks, that will be an interesting read.

[PeterSibley]

It was, I picked up some useful information, thanks again Craic.

[Phil Y]

Reading Brendan's Voyage, or whatever it's called, by Tim Severin. They got through some weather.

[Small boats rock]

When one already has a good boat, I reckon it makes sense to use her for whatever you wish to do until the day comes when it is clear that she has insurmountable limitations. Mostly it will be discovered that the sailor reaches the limit of where he wishes to sail before the boat is at her extreme limits of endurance. Modifications are worthwhile, but I wouldn't go so far as to start from scratch until I had sailed the pants off my existing boat.

[PeterSibley]

True .

[FF]

c14837db-ba09-4689-a063-dcb82983daee_500.jpg69cf8845-943c-4e2f-918c-04d3e7358594_500.jpg
I found this 'Waarschip' for sale. Asking 2500 euro. Originally these boats have a bermudarig and a fin keel. Now gunter rig and retractable keel. The weight is 500 kg which implies the ballast is considerable. I often thought about converting a hull like this. Lenght 6m, beam 2m.

[John Perry]

Although one cannot really tell from a single photo, that rig looks as though it might be a bit fragile, so perhaps not 'offshore capable'. Although, since people (mostly French) have crossed oceans on rubber rafts, small cabinless catamarans etc. perhaps anything that floats could be considered 'offshore capable'. For sea sailing with a gunter rig we have found it useful to have an alternative small bermudian mainsail arranged to set on the mast alone in windy weather, although for that to work you need a way to stow the yard away when it is not needed.
John

[FF]

The rig is from a 16m2, an inshore keel dinghy, and I think it is sturdy enough and here widely available. This particular sail is probably an ex racing sail, made with a hard finish which makes it vulnerable. But rigs like these are often available with a good 'cruising' finish.
My point is that its worthwhile to find an outdated boat and convert her, like they did 50 years ago with old lifeboat hulls and working boats.

[auscruisertom]

When one already has a good boat, I reckon it makes sense to use her for whatever you wish to do until the day comes when it is clear that she has insurmountable limitations. Mostly it will be discovered that the sailor reaches the limit of where he wishes to sail before the boat is at her extreme limits of endurance. Modifications are worthwhile, but I wouldn't go so far as to start from scratch until I had sailed the pants off my existing boat.

That was very well put.

And let’s face it our weather forecaster are surprisingly accurate which means cruising in a smaller vessel one just needs to allow additional time for stronger winds or adverse conditions when coastal cruising.

When discussing vessels such as the Warschip for offshore I have said it before they are more suited to someone young.

Peter I was actually wondering of how “Jim”would have handled the conditions on Sunday , which weatherly WB encountered in our short uphill sail come motor sail in those confused conditions with up to 2 m waves some of which where breaking enough for me to change course in order not to take heavy water onboard .

[skaraborgcraft]

Light bouyant boats can often "float" (no pun intended) over breaking water, that a heavier displacement boat wont. Though Jim would most likely have to be driven to get over such seas, so i would expect Mr Sibley to get a bit damp, but would hope no solid water in the cockpit......unless he overloads with too much stuff.....

[JimD]

A yawl rigged double ended Gretchen without leeboards (teehee)

[auscruisertom]

Light bouyant boats can often "float" (no pun intended) over breaking water, that a heavier displacement boat wont. Though Jim would most likely have to be driven to get over such seas, so i would expect Mr Sibley to get a bit damp, but would hope no solid water in the cockpit......unless he overloads with too much stuff.....

Undoubtedly light buoyant boats float differently to displacement vessels, however I would hesitate taking breaking waves beam on or running down wind in a small vessel in such conditions.
Conditions where steep 2m breaking waves are generated are generally due to current, shoaling waters with a combination of two different swell directions an uneven sea floor, and headlands particularity near bars.

I have employed tactics that would apply to lighter boats as well as yachts in the past where breaking waves need to be intersected at roughly 30 degrees making sure the boat is traveling fast enough to plow through the break. Then it’s an exhilarating downhill surf of the back of the swell.

[Phil Y]

I've actually been out in an open cockpit Tumlaren in the Southern Ocean in 60 knots and 12 metre breaking waves. The storm lasted about 48 hours. I lived to tell the tale. But I think all this talk of an offshore capable trailerable yacht is pretty much fantasy.

[Chris249]

Dunno Phil - a Noelex 30 has done the Sydney-Hobart, and having raced that boat to Coffs and taken similar-weight 30 footers to Hobart I'd be happy to take a Noelex offshore. Hobie 33s have done Transpacs. There's actually a trailerable version of my 28'er around; it's one of the GRP hulls that was squeezed together. I'd take one of those across the Tasman or Bass Strait no worries, if it was well built. Hunter 19s have crossed the Atlantic, as has the little Tucker (?) design Shrimp while she was circling the world.

In the more mainstream types, the Boomerang 20 trailer sailer was designed for offshore sailing, and done a fair bit of it in earlier eras.

[PeterSibley]

I've actually been out in an open cockpit Tumlaren in the Southern Ocean in 60 knots and 12 metre breaking waves. The storm lasted about 48 hours. I lived to tell the tale. But I think all this talk of an offshore capable trailerable yacht is pretty much fantasy.

No , it's been done, http://www.salmoboats.com/projekty-l...ow/salmo-21-a/
http://dinghyadventures.pl/

[Small boats rock]

A question to the nay sayers, what is it about trailerable boats which could be risky in heavy seas?

[mizzenman]

Ultimate stability

[skaraborgcraft]

Its not difficult to obtain self righting with hull and coachroof design with minimal ballast. It might not be as stiff as a 50% ballast ratio yacht, but much can be done with hull form. Not a fantasy at all, but maybe not everyones cup of tea. Just look at the early boats from the Mini-Transat like French Muscadets.

[Phil Y]

I had a Noelex 30 for a while. The hull is very lightly built. I know they've done some ocean passages, but so have Hartley 16s. There are those who argue that a scamp is offshore capable. The feats of survival based on such boats are epic. Exceptional. And that's exactly what they are. Exceptions. A small light boat just won't stay upright in 12 metre breaking seas. It won't make headway against 50 knot winds. It's motion in a rough, confused storm torn sea will exhaust, batter and injure those trapped inside its unsinkable hull for a day, or a week, or whatever. Can you get suitable clothing for climbing Mt Everest? Sure you can, hundreds, no thousands of people have proven that. But it's not safe, even now, with the best gear available.

[PeterSibley]

The problem seems to be the word "offshore''. The original idea was a boat that if caught out on the wrong side of a river bar, could survive until conditions moderated. Clearly not a comfortable situation and certainly one to be avoided...... but for a small boat engaged in coastal cruising on our East coast a situation that is clearly possible.

[Chris249]

Apologies for mentioning this yet again, but years ago I was sailing very close (sometimes within sight) of a classic S&S design in a light 30 footer of a type that could easily be modified to become a big trailerable. The owners of the S&S design have done 200,000 miles, cruise Cape Horn and Alaska for fun, have 7 Fastnet class wins, 1 Sydney-Hobart class win (from 1 start), won the biggest NZ offshore race, are widely published and have the medals of the Blue Water Cruising Club and Ocean Cruising Club. So let's agree that they know their oats.

They say on their website that the period when we were together had the worst seas in their 180,000 (to that time) miles of sailing, which included sailing out from England via the Horn. And yet the 2200kg 30 footer, while uncomfortable, did not at any time feel unsafe, nor did it injure its crew. We were under storm trysail alone (and that almost too much) at times, and Volvo Round the World race crews and some of the most experienced in the race said it was one of the least pleasant events they'd done - but the boat felt fine. A Noelex would have felt better in my experience.

With respect, if the trailables that "survived" offshore were exceptions then most such boats that attempted such trips must have sunk - but they haven't. For example, the Moore 24s, Hobie 33s and Olsons that did the Transpac have all survived. The Hunter 19s etc that did the Transat survived. The Noelex 30s and 2100-2400kg half tonners (ie equal in size to a big trailerable) that have started the Hobart have all survived. Since all of these have survived significant offshore passages, surviving cannot be the exception.