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Thread: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

  1. #316
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Wharram cats are mentioned here several times and I like them but I think they are not particularly safe sea boats as they don't go to windward so well. There are only sentimental reasons to build one these days when you can with the same pile of ply, gallons of epoxy and probably less hours build a much faster boat that has a more comfortable behaviour at sea. Compare the designs of Richard Woods, once Wharrams intern, and Kurt Hughes with Wharrams boats. And also resale value is better.
    Whilst appreciating that this is Mr Sibley’s thread, and that he leans toward a classic open monohull (with some added closed-in space), the two points about ease of trailer transporting/launching as well as sea-keeping ability, have opened up the discussion to the multihull option.
    Hopefully, without labouring the point, Wharram’s basic design comes closest in relation to the question on plans availability for something like a suitable design.
    Not that James has ever deigned a folding beam craft for quicker` set-up time on or off a trailer.
    However, with some modification and re rigging, I see a way (as already stated) to achieve a simplified version of a configuration along the lines of a folding ama type trailer-able multi…. Hers how --
    There is a model in the Honolulu Bishop museum that somewhat resembles a simple V section canoe, like a classic Wharram, and is the inspiration for my suggestion on converting a Wharram design to meet the trailering and set-up part.
    However, in agreement with the above quoted post, The nearly 60 deg V bottom could be improved on….
    Wharram’s new Mana design does have a bottom chine closer to 90 deg, as is the case with the very much older Tuamotuan sailing canoes.
    Then some boards (for lateral area), with a decent foil section will improve windward ability, rather than relying on deeper V hulls with their greater wetted area drag.
    Rigging changes are also envisaged, which provide the ability to rig the canoe when afloat and save on launching time off/on the trailer.
    Nothing designed by Woods or Kurt Hughes looks to be in the size range for solo handling on or off a trailer, while having any proven record offshore.
    Building with resale profit in mind is not a good idea in these times. But when it comes down to working in wood at the same time as meeting the above requirements, a Polynesian double canoe looks good.
    So if form follows function, some mental adjustment is needed to create possibilities…… like distributing mass favourably in terms of stability, while at the same time having sufficient beam to stay upright.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 04-10-2018 at 11:19 PM.

  2. #317
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I've enjoyed the various suggestions, and marvel at how widely a simple design brief can be interpreted.

    I'll throw in one suggestion that I think no on has mentioned so far - the Atkin 'Gretchen' with scuppered cockpit - http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Gretchen.html

    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

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  3. #318
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    A nice shape David but I really don't like lee boards, I've used them and didn't enjoy them.

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  4. #319
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Hi Peter
    Have you ever thought about a Cape Henry 21?
    ;-D Max

  5. #320
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I think indeed a multihull discussion should have its own thread.

  6. #321
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A nice shape David but I really don't like lee boards, I've used them and didn't enjoy them.

    I like the design and think the leeboards look a bit out of place. Perhaps bilgeboards could replace them. Hidden in the fronts of seats, angling outward and with a good nacra profile they would not be to obtrusive?

  7. #322
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    A Wolstenholme Norfolk Gypsy. A Gretchen would look something similar...



    I've recently wondered if plans for the Ed Burnett/ Nigel Irens Romilly strip plank version are still available?
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 04-11-2018 at 03:53 AM.

  8. #323
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I think indeed a multihull discussion should have its own thread.
    Why? There are numerous examples of 'offshore capable trailer boats' that are multihulls.

  9. #324
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I like the design and think the leeboards look a bit out of place. Perhaps bilgeboards could replace them. Hidden in the fronts of seats, angling outward and with a good nacra profile they would not be to obtrusive?
    My thoughts too..... as per Eun Mara.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  10. #325
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    A Wolstenholme Norfolk Gypsy. A Gretchen would look something similar...



    I've recently wondered if plans for the Ed Burnett/ Nigel Irens Romilly strip plank version are still available?
    Too big and heavy for me to consider trailering her Ed.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  11. #326
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I looked over a Bayraider Expedition at the Southampton boat show. It's got alot to like. Waterballasted when needed so it self rights, can plane if you push it, has a cabin if the mossies are a problem, mizzen to hold it to wind at anchor and it's light - 500kg or so. You'd certainly be able to avoid yard fees and be able to trailer it. These boats are more work to put in and out compared to a boat like Jim though.

    You'll like your Jim. The Tirrik we had was similar (but a metal plate) and it felt very good in waves. With your fore and side decks, you have a very capable boat already. I think I'd be packing a bimini, snorkel, flippers, a reef fish guide, Danforth and a Fisherman. The Ness Yawl type boats are much quicker and less intimidating to trailer in and out than the 20ft transom 1 ton plus trailer sailers.

    I regret not buying the NY Alba when she was for sale years ago from Iain.



    A chap built the smaller version to yours, Lillie and she looked very nice at Beale. Think she got 1st prize!

  12. #327
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Peter, do you have a maximum weight of the boat in mind, I mean dry weight, that you would lug around?

  13. #328
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Yes, Lillie is very pretty. There was one at the last Hobart Wooden Boat Festival. Stitch and glue. Jim is similar but larger all around.

    P2120989.jpg
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  14. #329
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Sorry I'm late to the party. I skimmed the thread but did not see Ross Lillistone's Little Egret mentioned.



    IMAGE: Little Egret: She measures 18' 10-1/4" LOA, 4' 9-3/4" Beam, and draws about 6"

    Excerpt
    I was brought up on the shores of Moreton Bay in south-east Queensland, Australia. Moreton Bay is a huge expanse of water protected from the open Pacific Ocean by a line of huge barrier islands - the bay itself being 100 kilometres long and 32 kilometres across at its widest point. The waters of this great waterway are open and deep to the north, but large portions of it, particularly in the southern half, are shallow and protected. As a friend once said to me, "There is a lot of water in Moreton Bay, but it is spread out very thin!" This sort of coastal area is, in my opinion, a magnificent location for dinghy cruising.


    Egret was designed by Ralph Munroe to act as an ambulance, mail boat, and water taxi for the early residents of Biscayne Bay in Southern Florida. Here is a short description in Ralph M. Munroe's own words;

    "The difficulties of beach travel being thoroughly realized, and the Weather Bureau having established a telegraph line to Jupiter, it seemed imperative that something in the boat line superior to any of the existing craft for this work should be obtained. So in the summer of 1886, to replace Kingfish, I had built at Brown's the 28-foot double-ended sharpie lifeboat, Egret, very strongly but lightly constructed. She drew eight inches, and had only fifty to seventy-five bricks, laid under the floor, for ballast. She was fitted with all the appurtenances needed to keep the sea in almost any weather, and if necessary to be put on the beach without harm. That she fulfilled all requirements until the first road was opened the older residents can testify."
    (excerpted from The Commodore's Story by Ralph Middleton Munroe and Vincent Gilpin - Historical Society of Southern Florida)

    Like many others, I have found myself under the spell of Egret's superb lines, which could be described as a cross between a sharpie and a dory. Her swept-up stern and distribution of buoyancy put me stronly in mind of our Australian Surfboats, so the combination of the three hullforms gives her a wonderful pedegree.

    * * * * * * * * * *

    Several months ago I was approached by a fellow who has also been in love with Egret for a very long time. For nearly thirty years, on and off, he had been searching for plans which would allow the building of an Egret-like boat of around 18 feet LOA. He had become frustrated with the search, not being able to locate exactly what he was after, but a chance occurrence put him in contact with me, and he gave me the opportunity to try my hand at a modern interpretation.

    Scaling the size of a boat up or down introduces many hydrostatic and hydrodynamic complications, so I did not in anyway attempt to copy Egret. In fact, as disciplinary measure, I refused to look at any of my original Egret plans until the hull modelling was complete - that way I knew that I was drawing an entirerly new design - inspired by Egret but not copied.
    "Little Egret" - an Egret-style Sharpie (ARTICLE LINK)

    Little Egret - A Munroe-style sharpie nearing completion (ARTICLE LINK)

    #include [std-disclaimer]

    Hope the voyage is a long one.
    May there be many a summer morning when,
    with what pleasure, what joy,
    you come into harbors seen for the first time...

    Ithaka, by Cavafy
    (Keeley - Sherrard translation)

  15. #330
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Peter Sibley,
    I can recommend to take an already very capable boat, and beef it up further. Saves time, money and avoids disappointments.
    In my case, it was to retrofit a watertight cabin hatch, and to add buoyancy to the superstructure so as to make the boat roll back unaided from a possible inversion at sea.
    There was a thread here a few years ago. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...hallow+draught . Some photos of the finished boat at postings #67 and 69 .
    http://i.imgur.com/b27vcyR.jpg
    Last edited by Craic; 04-12-2018 at 12:42 AM.

  16. #331
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Thanks, that will be an interesting read.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  17. #332
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    It was, I picked up some useful information, thanks again Craic.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  18. #333
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Reading Brendan's Voyage, or whatever it's called, by Tim Severin. They got through some weather.

  19. #334
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    When one already has a good boat, I reckon it makes sense to use her for whatever you wish to do until the day comes when it is clear that she has insurmountable limitations. Mostly it will be discovered that the sailor reaches the limit of where he wishes to sail before the boat is at her extreme limits of endurance. Modifications are worthwhile, but I wouldn't go so far as to start from scratch until I had sailed the pants off my existing boat.

  20. #335
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    True .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  21. #336
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    c14837db-ba09-4689-a063-dcb82983daee_500.jpg69cf8845-943c-4e2f-918c-04d3e7358594_500.jpg
    I found this 'Waarschip' for sale. Asking 2500 euro. Originally these boats have a bermudarig and a fin keel. Now gunter rig and retractable keel. The weight is 500 kg which implies the ballast is considerable. I often thought about converting a hull like this. Lenght 6m, beam 2m.
    Last edited by FF; 04-17-2018 at 02:56 AM.

  22. #337
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Although one cannot really tell from a single photo, that rig looks as though it might be a bit fragile, so perhaps not 'offshore capable'. Although, since people (mostly French) have crossed oceans on rubber rafts, small cabinless catamarans etc. perhaps anything that floats could be considered 'offshore capable'. For sea sailing with a gunter rig we have found it useful to have an alternative small bermudian mainsail arranged to set on the mast alone in windy weather, although for that to work you need a way to stow the yard away when it is not needed.
    John

  23. #338
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    The rig is from a 16m2, an inshore keel dinghy, and I think it is sturdy enough and here widely available. This particular sail is probably an ex racing sail, made with a hard finish which makes it vulnerable. But rigs like these are often available with a good 'cruising' finish.
    My point is that its worthwhile to find an outdated boat and convert her, like they did 50 years ago with old lifeboat hulls and working boats.
    Last edited by FF; 04-17-2018 at 06:32 AM.

  24. #339
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    When one already has a good boat, I reckon it makes sense to use her for whatever you wish to do until the day comes when it is clear that she has insurmountable limitations. Mostly it will be discovered that the sailor reaches the limit of where he wishes to sail before the boat is at her extreme limits of endurance. Modifications are worthwhile, but I wouldn't go so far as to start from scratch until I had sailed the pants off my existing boat.
    That was very well put.

    And let’s face it our weather forecaster are surprisingly accurate which means cruising in a smaller vessel one just needs to allow additional time for stronger winds or adverse conditions when coastal cruising.

    When discussing vessels such as the Warschip for offshore I have said it before they are more suited to someone young.

    Peter I was actually wondering of how “Jim”would have handled the conditions on Sunday , which weatherly WB encountered in our short uphill sail come motor sail in those confused conditions with up to 2 m waves some of which where breaking enough for me to change course in order not to take heavy water onboard .

  25. #340
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Light bouyant boats can often "float" (no pun intended) over breaking water, that a heavier displacement boat wont. Though Jim would most likely have to be driven to get over such seas, so i would expect Mr Sibley to get a bit damp, but would hope no solid water in the cockpit......unless he overloads with too much stuff.....

  26. #341
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    A yawl rigged double ended Gretchen without leeboards (teehee)

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  27. #342
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Light bouyant boats can often "float" (no pun intended) over breaking water, that a heavier displacement boat wont. Though Jim would most likely have to be driven to get over such seas, so i would expect Mr Sibley to get a bit damp, but would hope no solid water in the cockpit......unless he overloads with too much stuff.....
    Undoubtedly light buoyant boats float differently to displacement vessels, however I would hesitate taking breaking waves beam on or running down wind in a small vessel in such conditions.
    Conditions where steep 2m breaking waves are generated are generally due to current, shoaling waters with a combination of two different swell directions an uneven sea floor, and headlands particularity near bars.

    I have employed tactics that would apply to lighter boats as well as yachts in the past where breaking waves need to be intersected at roughly 30 degrees making sure the boat is traveling fast enough to plow through the break. Then it’s an exhilarating downhill surf of the back of the swell.

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