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Thread: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A difficult question that someone who has actually sailed the Queensland coast in may answer better than me . Anyone ?
    I've done it a few times (unfortunately the wrong way...). Mostly 15-25 knot South easterlies. Maybe upto 30-35 at times around headlands and in channels, or in gusts in the lee of islands.

    It would be a fantastic small boat trip, as long as you were a little bit smart about the weather and had her set up to run in strong winds with a small jib and drogue if things got too lively. I'd want a good autopilot or windvane, and some sort of shade.

  2. #282
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Thanks, I've had a rough look and there appear to be anchorages (or at least shelter) at around 50 km spacings .
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  3. #283
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    It's common on the Qld coast for winds to be around 25 knots. From about June to October, November, they tend to stay that way, from SE. At times the wind gets up over 30 but anything beyond that is fairly rare outside cyclone season, which is November through to about April. These days, weather info is so good that just about everyone knows when a cyclone is coming, days ahead. In S Qld and NSW, thunderstorms are common across the spring through to autumn, and they can produce very strong wind for brief periods. In my view, they're the biggest danger for a small boat as they're unpredictable. Cruising the Qld coast in summer in a very small boat would be horrible anyway as it's very hot, humid, the sea's full of deadly stingers and the mosquitoes and sandflies would drive anyone insane. It's much better out on the reef but that's risky in a small boat during cyclone/storm season.

    The reef knocks out most of the swell so even if there's a big swell running outside the reef, there are few spots where this reaches the coast proper. Cruising the Qld coast north of Hervey Bay, inside Great Sandy Strait, during winter, you'd have no trouble beaching a boat like Jim, Scamp, the lovely one with the sword () etc., in any of very many protected bays anywhere without rocks, mangroves or too much mud. I think that would be a really great adventure. Crocodiles are a risk so you'd have to get local knowledge about that as they're supposed to now be quite far south.

    Rick

  4. #284
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Thanks Rick.
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  5. #285
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    That gives me hope that it really is possible .
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    If I can rephrase the question: How much of a sea-boat can you reasonably trailer? We have a 26 foot Norwalk Islands Sharpie. She is easy to rig and launch off a ramp. She is great for coastal cruising along the coast of New England and Atlantic Canada. We have made some pretty long day hops in her but always with an eye on the weather. We would not want to be caught outside not able to get into port.

    Our boat has performed well in some pretty rough conditions but the qualities that make her easy to trailer (light weight, flat bottom) make for a rough ride. We're good for a few hours of this but we like to get into port before dark.

    A boat that has to be slinged off the trailer and have her mast stepped with a crane may be a good sea boat but is more "transportable" than trailerable.

    http://onthetide.net/sailing.html
    Last edited by On The Tide; 04-08-2018 at 08:24 AM.

  7. #287
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Rick's account of the weather sounds right according to my knowledge and limited experience. I'd also echo his concern that it wouldn't take much of an error to miss the tide window when running between northern NSW bars in a small and slow boats - there's a comment on Seabreeze at the moment about a guy missing the Ballina bar window in a big boat, running as part of a thread about a 23 footer being sunk on Ballina bar today.

    I can't see a heavy double ender finding enough water in the creeks along the inside of Fraser to float at low tide, and few things would be less comfortable than sleeping on such a craft when dried out and heeled over. Around the Whitsundays you'd probably be at the mercy of the tides due to the low speed. As Rick and Snow Pea say, it could be a great trip in other areas and ways.

    Without pushing the matter too hard, it would appear that no one has actually pointed out the supposed advantage of the heavy displacement classic style in these boats of 22 ft or less. Don't you end up with a boat with the trailerability issues of a big boat, with the speed and room of a small boat, and no chance of getting out of bad conditions by being dragged up on the beach like a Mirror, Corsair or Wayfarer type? If only a classic is what rocks your boat that's great, but doesn't that make it a different question?

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I looked again at the Keith Callaghan, Blue Lightning http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ series, which I think with an oversize outboard, so she could motor at say 10 knots, would be ideal for the trip you are planning Peter. I also realize that it would bot fulfill, your aesthetic or motion requirements. He's a heck of a designer, having cut his teeth on restricted designs like National 12 and Merlin Rocket.

    His page does have a very clear definition of a trailer sailer, which is worth looking at. http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/tsdefinition.html

  9. #289
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    All this discussion about the actual cruising area reinforces my original thought that something like a Wharram Tiki 21 would be just spot on.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    All this discussion about the actual cruising area reinforces my original thought that something like a Wharram Tiki 21 would be just spot on.
    Yep. Or the DC3, for which I couldn't remember the name before. The Marples tri is much quicker and easier to move from trailer to water and back and also a drier platform to sail. But both would be suited to the job described.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    It is a good point about the set-up time of the Tiki 21. I have sometimes wondered if there is not a case for a single Tiki hull paired with a smaller, lighter, outrigger and a significantly reduced rig (possibly unstayed).

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    I looked again at the Keith Callaghan, Blue Lightning http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ series, which I think with an oversize outboard, so she could motor at say 10 knots, would be ideal for the trip you are planning Peter. I also realize that it would bot fulfill, your aesthetic or motion requirements. He's a heck of a designer, having cut his teeth on restricted designs like National 12 and Merlin Rocket.

    His page does have a very clear definition of a trailer sailer, which is worth looking at. http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/tsdefinition.html
    Really nice!

    Rick

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Rick's account of the weather sounds right according to my knowledge and limited experience. I'd also echo his concern that it wouldn't take much of an error to miss the tide window when running between northern NSW bars in a small and slow boats - there's a comment on Seabreeze at the moment about a guy missing the Ballina bar window in a big boat, running as part of a thread about a 23 footer being sunk on Ballina bar today.

    I can't see a heavy double ender finding enough water in the creeks along the inside of Fraser to float at low tide, and few things would be less comfortable than sleeping on such a craft when dried out and heeled over. Around the Whitsundays you'd probably be at the mercy of the tides due to the low speed. As Rick and Snow Pea say, it could be a great trip in other areas and ways.

    Without pushing the matter too hard, it would appear that no one has actually pointed out the supposed advantage of the heavy displacement classic style in these boats of 22 ft or less. Don't you end up with a boat with the trailerability issues of a big boat, with the speed and room of a small boat, and no chance of getting out of bad conditions by being dragged up on the beach like a Mirror, Corsair or Wayfarer type? If only a classic is what rocks your boat that's great, but doesn't that make it a different question?
    Agreed Chris and thanks for stating the case so succinctly. The heavy type is aesthetically attractive to me but as you say, doesn't satisfy the requirements I've stated.

    As it stands I think modifying my JIM a wee bit is probably the best path. She has the potential to be quick, buoyant and easy to trailer and launch and to be able to access small creeks .

    If I decide to build again the suggestions made above offer a LOT of food for thought. The Salmo 20 in particular.
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  14. #294
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    It is a good point about the set-up time of the Tiki 21. I have sometimes wondered if there is not a case for a single Tiki hull paired with a smaller, lighter, outrigger and a significantly reduced rig (possibly unstayed).
    To push this sidebar a bit more, a Tiki hull turned into a proa would resemble Mbuli. The loss in carrying capacity would probably be too much for long trips. Also, at this size there's not even capacity to add lee-side flotation to catch the boat in a knockdown, according to designer John Harris. The big sister to Mbuli, Madness, would do the job. But now you're back to a big complicated boat to assemble.

    Mbuli





    Madness

    -Dave

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    My favorite Worrycat is the Tanenui, a 28 foot Classic series design, but definitely not trailerable.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    If I decide to build again the suggestions made above offer a LOT of food for thought. The Salmo 20 in particular.
    The Salmo 20T looks a like a sister to my welsford sweet pea at 17.5 feet. Keep discussing these routes I'm taking notes!

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    To push this sidebar a bit more, a Tiki hull turned into a proa would resemble Mbuli. The loss in carrying capacity would probably be too much for long trips. Also, at this size there's not even capacity to add lee-side flotation to catch the boat in a knockdown, according to designer John Harris. ...
    --- But you can add a lee-side "safety ama" (as they call them in the Hawaiian OC world) if it is capsize protection (rather than bunk space) you are looking for in a small-ish proa. --Wade

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- But you can add a lee-side "safety ama" (as they call them in the Hawaiian OC world) if it is capsize protection (rather than bunk space) you are looking for in a small-ish proa. --Wade
    I would think so, and if I built a Mbuli I'd definitely do something. But years back when John drew the boat, this question was asked and his response as I recall it was that the design was maxed out for weight and he couldn't add any more structure.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Available plans for the trailer launching and retrieval aspect of this discussion goes in favour of trimarans, but there has got to be good reason why farriers dominate here, and then there is an equally good reason why Farriers are no longer recommended for wooden construction.
    Sure, for simple, affordable and light, the small Wharram designs do answer the offshore capability part -- a Tiki 21 has recently made an uneventful Tasman crossing, with a man and his young daughter……besides the circumnavigation some time back by Rory Mc Dougal.
    Plans are of course available, but something needs to be done about the assembly speed off the trailer
    At the same time ( as modifying the cWharram cat configuration), it could be worthwhile to add some more in the way of amenities and creature comforts……like expanded living space in one hull and a separate heads with holding tank in the other hull.
    Considering the added bulk and weight of these additions to a small low budget multihull, there needs to be a compromise made with respect to at least one aspect of the trailer sailor brief. So how about mild steel fabricating the mechanical bits and pieces needed for getting the craft onto and off the trailer (actually a dolly is all it needs)…..definitely a saving over making light metal parts for folding amas on a double ama/trimaran type craft.
    Had plans been available for a collapsible double canoe, I probably would have known about them, and right, there are none (besides Wood’s designs)
    However, I did have a Wharram Hinemoa and a set of plans, which fuelled much thought on ways to do a conversion aimed atcovering most of the abovementioned points.
    So bearing all in mind, a Tiki 21 would make an equally good donor.

    Only, by now I have made advances in the way of rig design, while working on my 30ft SOPahi, and am envisioning carrying some of this design over to a smaller craft.....without suggesting that I have plans on offer.
    The 30 footer rolled on and off a trailer, by using a dolly and scaffold planks.
    Now, if the hulls were smaller and could fold to within road legal width, before and after loading onto and off a trailer, it would allow the canoe to be an all wooden craft……including spars.

    A Pahi admittedly does not follow the 1960’s (or possibly 1970’s) plymaran ethos…. And can provide an opportunity to exhibit more raw wood in the way of decking, rub strakes, trim and sail rig components.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 04-09-2018 at 04:36 PM.

  20. #300
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    a Tiki 21 has recently made an uneventful Tasman crossing, with a man and his young daughter
    Its hard to comment on something like that without appearing insulting, which is not what I intend , but that man did take his 6 year old from a broken relationship without the mother's knowledge or permission and crossed a dangerous sea , The Tasman. He did that without customs or biosecurity clearances or category rating compliance ,and then entered Australia without clearances. I am astonished to this day that he wasn't arrested on the spot and hurled in jail. The Aussie customs and bio people have a reputation amongst cruisers for being tough and even harsh.

    There is no doubt he made it and I've defended him online before, because I'm sure he's very competent ,but keep in mind he also got pretty lucky with the weather.

    However, you don't get away with stuff like that these days, he must have been very naive to think he could, or perhaps he wasn't thinking straight through stress. Either way , I don't think a person in full control would contemplate that trip in that boat, or get permission in the form of a category 1 certificate in this part of the world. I could be wrong in the permission thing , but I doubt it.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    He probably didn't think it through, any more than figuring the craft was reasonably sound and well enough stocked with provisions for some weeks at sea.
    Seems he was in a desperate situation and mainly wanted to spend time with his kid.
    He could have instead turned to drink and decided to hell with living.
    sounds as though he got away with it by maintaining that it was rudder failure which got them to be headed toward Aus.

    My point is that doing coastal sailing where you might need to stand out to sea, makes the choice of boat important. This Tiki 21 was good for getting out over a bar at a river mouth and could likely have got back in, had the skipper chosen to do so.
    Just make sure that the rig and rudder are going to hold up to it.
    Sure, getting cat certification for off shore and clearance with immigration and biosecurity clearance is not a good idea when choosing a Tiki 21 size craft.

    Trailer transporting and coastal sailing with the ability to stand offshore is not quite the same as planning to visit foreign countries.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Its hard to comment on something like that without appearing insulting, which is not what I intend , but that man did take his 6 year old from a broken relationship without the mother's knowledge or permission and crossed a dangerous sea , The Tasman. He did that without customs or biosecurity clearances or category rating compliance ,and then entered Australia without clearances. I am astonished to this day that he wasn't arrested on the spot and hurled in jail. The Aussie customs and bio people have a reputation amongst cruisers for being tough and even harsh.

    There is no doubt he made it and I've defended him online before, because I'm sure he's very competent ,but keep in mind he also got pretty lucky with the weather.

    However, you don't get away with stuff like that these days, he must have been very naive to think he could, or perhaps he wasn't thinking straight through stress. Either way , I don't think a person in full control would contemplate that trip in that boat, or get permission in the form of a category 1 certificate in this part of the world. I could be wrong in the permission thing , but I doubt it.
    I first met Rory Mc Dougal in Hawai sailing on a Cal 29 with a young Canadian gal they where headed for Perth and made it ,as I borrowed them a stack of charts. We both worked at Ali Wai Marina and I got to know him as a fun loving down to earth casual Aussie surfer. Coincidentally I had previously met his brother Breffny cruising on a Vega while seasonally fishing up in the Gulf of Alaska.
    Quite right John re Cat 1. I doubt if manyTiki’s even have lifelines let alone a life raft. In his defence he did alert Australian authorities of his arrival.

  23. #303
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Wharram's Mana 24 is the most recent development of the Tiki 21/26 to create more internal space within the 'trailerable coastal cruiser'.



    He's taking a kit approach with it (10k all in minus paint) and it does build very very quickly - a full CNC kit with finger joints and tabs etc. It's a different way of living for sure. He's certainly very experienced after a lifetime with these craft now. It must be pretty sorted.



    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 04-10-2018 at 04:30 AM.

  24. #304
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    The Wharrams aren't my dream boat, but they'd probably be a very reasonable approach to the task. With those narrow sterns they'd probably be fairly resistant to nosediving when crossing bars. My family has found the bigger cats to be very good bar boats for those waters, and while small cats can be problematic in deep water they've got advantages for this coast.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I really like that Mana, and, if i was in Mr Sibleys neck of the woods where its mostly warm, it would work for me. Not sure about the setting up from a trailer single-handed though. I think he has the right boat in Jim, just needs to sort out the cuddy details to make it work.

  26. #306
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Thanks for the confidence Ian!
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    If I remember didn't Web Chiles end up with sea snakes in his Drascombe up the north end of Australia?

  28. #308
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    No idea but I've seem plenty of sea snakes on the sorting tray when I worked on a prawn trawler up North.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I would think so, and if I built a Mbuli I'd definitely do something. But years back when John drew the boat, this question was asked and his response as I recall it was that the design was maxed out for weight and he couldn't add any more structure.
    --- I see. My solution would be to make it a foam-and-glass safety ama (30 pounds or so? The 10 footer I built recently has ~ 170 pounds buoyancy and weighs 15 or 20 pounds, and a tad more with extended beams to carry it. If one is offended by foam and glass, I'll bet a 3mm stitched-ply version would come in pretty light. -- Wade

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Wharram cats are mentioned here several times and I like them but I think they are not particularly safe sea boats as they don't go to windward so well. There are only sentimental reasons to build one these days when you can with the same pile of ply, gallons of epoxy and probably less hours build a much faster boat that has a more comfortable behaviour at sea. Compare the designs of Richard Woods, once Wharrams intern, and Kurt Hughes with Wharrams boats. And also resale value is better.

  31. #311
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I'd stick with Jim too. Winter passages up north and well-planned touring in suitable areas down south - perfect!

    Rick

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    You say up north, where did you work on the prawn trawler Peter?

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    I joined the boat "Jennifer Ruth" at Mooloolabah then up to TI then down into the Gulf. The boat dropped it's otter boards into wobby hole off Dyfken Point, off Weipa and we sheared an engine gearbox coupling. After a couple of weeks of waiting for parts the Skipper gave me permission to get job in Weipa . I drove a backhoe for a while.
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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Yea, we spent a lot of time cruising from Cairns to Weipa and across to Darwin when we lived on our 42 ft yacht for 11 years. We used to clear customs from Weipa when we headed to Asia (better run). We also use to kick the pick over just outside of Woolies in Weipa. Top Spot
    Knew a lot of the Prawn Trawlers up there. Everytime we heard of a Birthday, Debbie my wife used to knock up a big cake or two. Then we'd put then word out and it wasn't unusual to have 10-15 trawlers rock up for a party (LOL), especially if we were around Stanley Island (Princess Charlotte Bay).
    Great times back then
    Last edited by Mark Bowdidge; 04-10-2018 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: An offshore capable trailer boat ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Wharram cats are mentioned here several times and I like them but I think they are not particularly safe sea boats as they don't go to windward so well. There are only sentimental reasons to build one these days when you can with the same pile of ply, gallons of epoxy and probably less hours build a much faster boat that has a more comfortable behaviour at sea. Compare the designs of Richard Woods, once Wharrams intern, and Kurt Hughes with Wharrams boats. And also resale value is better.
    Whilst appreciating that this is Mr Sibley’s thread, and that he leans toward a classic open monohull (with some added closed-in space), the two points about ease of trailer transporting/launching as well as sea-keeping ability, have opened up the discussion to the multihull option.
    Hopefully, without labouring the point, Wharram’s basic design comes closest in relation to the question on plans availability for something like a suitable design.
    Not that James has ever deigned a folding beam craft for quicker` set-up time on or off a trailer.
    However, with some modification and re rigging, I see a way (as already stated) to achieve a simplified version of a configuration along the lines of a folding ama type trailer-able multi…. Hers how --
    There is a model in the Honolulu Bishop museum that somewhat resembles a simple V section canoe, like a classic Wharram, and is the inspiration for my suggestion on converting a Wharram design to meet the trailering and set-up part.
    However, in agreement with the above quoted post, The nearly 60 deg V bottom could be improved on….
    Wharram’s new Mana design does have a bottom chine closer to 90 deg, as is the case with the very much older Tuamotuan sailing canoes.
    Then some boards (for lateral area), with a decent foil section will improve windward ability, rather than relying on deeper V hulls with their greater wetted area drag.
    Rigging changes are also envisaged, which provide the ability to rig the canoe when afloat and save on launching time off/on the trailer.
    Nothing designed by Woods or Kurt Hughes looks to be in the size range for solo handling on or off a trailer, while having any proven record offshore.
    Building with resale profit in mind is not a good idea in these times. But when it comes down to working in wood at the same time as meeting the above requirements, a Polynesian double canoe looks good.
    So if form follows function, some mental adjustment is needed to create possibilities…… like distributing mass favourably in terms of stability, while at the same time having sufficient beam to stay upright.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 04-10-2018 at 11:19 PM.

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