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Thread: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

  1. #1

    Default Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Thought this would be a matter of scraping a few minor areas, sanding the topsides, and a couple coats of paint.
    Paint fairly came off in sheets, particularly in areas around the chainplates; seems more stable elsewhere.
    I'm really hoping I can prime, sand, prime/fill the bare spots and leave the more stable topsides paint 'as is', fairing the paint into the bare areas with a sander.
    I don't really care about a perfectly fair-looking hull, but don't want to be a total hack at this.
    It's really about getting the boat back in the water and sailing. Could do some work while back in the water of course.
    Gee, I really wanted a wooden boat....
    It's fun at the yard though, lot's going on and some nice words of encouragement.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Some more info is going to help. Try to figure out why the paint is coming off . Maybe it was primed poorly. Maybe the deck leaks badly at the chainplates and the topside planking is soaking wet. Is the bottom having problems?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Well, the point is to get a proper bond of the new paint. This means, as you suggest, sanding all the existing paint to remove any contamination and get a "tooth" for the new coat.
    You don't need to sand to bare wood if the paint is in good shape and is bonded well.
    If the paint is not well adhered you will know when you sand. There may be more flaking areas that show up.(It looks as if the boot is flaking. That needs attention)
    Don't let the bare spots remain un-primed overnight. Prime as you go. Minimum of two top coats over primed bare wood. probably best to prime the entire topsides.
    Sand...prime...fair...sand...(prime and sand thin spots)...finish coat...finish coat. Minimum. Or you get a repeat of what you have.
    My 2 cents.

    Nice looking boat, what we can see of it! (hint)

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Maybe someone put awlgrip over an oil/alkyd paint job.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    You can use Awl Grip over oil base...

    Surface Preparation and Priming -
    Previously Painted Surfaces Compatibility

    There are many situations where repainting is needed but removing all the old paint is impractical. However, the cost of labor and materials for a sand and repaint is significant and there is no gain in painting over a system that is severely deteriorated or chemically incompatible with the Awlgrip Coatings Systems.

    When considering such a project, carefully evaluate the surface and the condition of the current topcoat and the coatings under it all the way down to the substrate. Old paint that is peeling extensively, heavily chalked, blistered, or cracked should be completely removed.

    Metal substrates should be thoroughly examined for corrosion. This includes obvious corrosion damage and slight blistering which may indicate corrosion just ready to break the surface. Large blisters or soft spots in the film may indicate old fairing work that is failing. On fiberglass substrates, these conditions may be indicative of voids in the glass system or osmotic blistering. These conditions must be repaired before applying new coatings.

    After initial evaluation, perform the following three tests in the order listed, to determine the adhesion of the old system and its chemical compatibility with the Awlgrip Coating Systems.

    Performing these tests on more than one area will add validity to the results. Make notes, collect chips, and take photos for the job file. If any of the following compatibility tests fail, the old coatings must be removed down to a sound coating layer or to the substrate.

    Please take this testing seriously, as new epoxy-urethane systems have failed because of unstable underlying coatings and fillers. While the tests are not fool proof, if strictly followed they can be very accurate. Diligence in performing the tests can save hours of costly labor, down time, and wasted materials.

    Assuming the existing paint system passes the adhesion and compatibility tests, repainting would include the following:
    • Inspection of the surface.
    • Removal of coatings which fail the adhesion and compatibility tests.
    • Repair of defects.
    • Priming the entire surface.
    • Application of an Awlgrip or Awlcraft 2000 Topcoat.

    Conditions and remedies should be discussed with the owner, possibly using a condition report or making notes in the painting contract. Areas that were not repaired because of time or budget must be noted on the final invoice.

    Coatings Compatibility & Adhesion Tests

    Test One: Cross Hatch Adhesion (See diagram right.)
    1. Select a test area or areas on the surface to be painted. Thoroughly clean, de-wax, and degrease this area.
    2. With a single-edge razor blade, scribe a 2" x 2" test area in a 1/4" checkerboard pattern. The cuts must be deep enough to reach the substrate. On a thick fairing system this test may have to be done to several different layers.
    3. Apply 3M #610, #895 or #898 3M Scotch Brand Filament Tape (or similar type of packaging tape) over the scribed area, making certain that the tape is tightly adhered to the test surface. Do not use masking tape.
    4. With an abrupt yank, pull the tape back parallel to the surface. To pull the tape straight up will give no test at all.
    5. Examine the test surface. If any square of old coating in the scribed area is removed, the adhesion has failed. All the failed layers must be removed.

    Test Two: Solvent Resistance
    1. Saturate a cotton ball or small wad of cloth with one of the Awlgrip Topcoat or Primer Reducers. (T0006 or T0003).
    2. Tape the reducer saturated ball to the scribed area surface for 30 minutes.
    3. After 30 minutes, remove the cotton ball. If the reducer has dissolved or severely softened the old coating, the coating is incompatible and must be removed. If the scribed area has remained intact, allow a 15 minute recovery period and repeat all steps in Test 1 again.
    4. If any square areas are removed, all the failed layers must be removed.

    Test Three: Coating Compatibility
    If the old coating is still intact after Tests 1 and 2, perform Test 3.
    1. Lightly sand a small test area with 220 grit paper. Clean the sanded areas thoroughly with Awl-Prep and clean cloths.
    2. Paint a small patch of the surface with Awlgrip Topcoat. Do not use masking tape on the edges of the test application as the paint edges created by the tape will "print through" and be visible in the finish.
    3. Allow the coated area to cure for 24 hours, at temperatures above 77F.
    4. After the area has been allowed to cure, check for intercoat adhesion with Test 1 Cross Hatch Adhesion Test.
    5. If there is no lifting, wrinkling, or loss of adhesion caused by this cross hatch test, the Awlgrip Coating Systems are compatible and surface preparation can begin.

    If this test fails, all coatings must be removed down to a sound, well adhered, compatible coating or to the original substrate.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    If it comes off in sheets... that's a clue.

    I've done that to our old ketch in recent years -- wooded and painted the topsides. I used a weed-burning torch, which is a big soft flame, followed immediately with a scraper.

    Pass the torch, scrape that spot, big piece falls down onto the tarp. Pass-scrape, pass-scrape, pass-scrape... it doesn't take as long as you think.



    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ed-ketch/page5



    But it may be something else -- maybe oil onto latex or something weird like that.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    I think you're right about water getting in around the chainplates. The top plank is wet under the paint in that area and there's some soft wood too.
    The bottom doesn't seem to have any problems but then, the topsides didn't seem to have any problems till I started poking around with a scraper and putty knife.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Take any deck leaks very seriously. They lead to other problems.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    "The bottom doesn't seem to have any problems but then, the topsides didn't seem to have any problems till I started poking around with a scraper and putty knife. "

    ..... and now the fun begins .... Good luck with your repairs, hope you are back in the water soon! / Jim

  10. #10

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    A long day with fire and pointed sticks....and a press-ganged youngest son. Thank Christ for his sympathy for a delusional father.....
    Topsides seem to want stripping back, and there are a few gnarly bits of rot emerging which I'll hack away at, and some deck work.
    Of course things getting slightly more complicated than I thought, but whattya want buying a 38' wooden boat for a nickle !
    Have a steady, non-panicky wooden boat shipwright alongside to both reassure/bleed me...
    All good.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    A pressure washer will find and disintegrate rot. It might also do serious damage to caulking. EDIT: a year after writing that, I tried it on some very rotten wood in an ash tree. It is a slow and very uneven process with a 1800 psi electric pressure washer. I once tried a 10,000 psi pressure washer that could have cut the tree down in seconds. Something in between might be more effective.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 12-27-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Geeze , IJMDI,can you bring us up to speed on the boat? What is the planking wood? Where are you? She looked so good, now to see paint coming off in sheets... a bit disturbing.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Boat is hauled at Shelter Island boatyard in Richmond, B.C. and work is proceeding more or less on the advice of Sharp Marine, a small wooden boat specialist business there.
    Yes, this is a rather dramatic turn of events from what I thought would be a scrape, sand and topcoat- perhaps that's what I should have done, but the paint was yielding in many areas with nothing more than a run of the putty knife.
    I was advised to 'wood' the hull so that's what's happening for better or worse, and I can only soldier ahead with it.
    But yes, it's a bit disturbing as you say, WZ13, and more to the point, means the bloody boat is on the hard for a couple weeks rather than in the water
    Hull is Honduras mahogany over steam bent oak.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Not a pressure washer; propane torch and putty knife run behind to peel off paint in thick ribbons.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Take any deck leaks very seriously. They lead to other problems.
    Water has worked its way in from some loose stanchions and caused some deck issues and rot both sides to the top of the top planks.
    The proverbial can of worms soon to be opened.
    Hard to know when to stop looking for problems. I mean, I want to do the right thing, but it's a fifty year old boat I bought rather cavalierly for not a lot of money and it'll suck as much time and money out of me as I care to give it....

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Quote Originally Posted by I might just do it View Post
    Not a pressure washer; propane torch and putty knife run behind to peel off paint in thick ribbons.
    No argument with your use of a torch to remove paint. It was clear that you used the torch and it worked well.
    There are a few gnarly bits of rot emerging which I'll hack away at,
    The suggestion was to use a pressure washer to remove, hack away or evaluate the extent of a patch of rotten wood. Sound wood will resist for a while, but rotten wood will erode away quickly.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    One thing at this point you probably ought to ask yourself is; What is my real goal here? Are you looking for a complete restoration of a very pretty boat, or are you looking for a nice family boat? There's a lot of discussion of the work-to reward ratio on boat projects. It looks like one major benefit may be involving your family in a project that will pay dividends, possibly for generations to come. Great looking boat, good start! I'm looking forward to more pics

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Yep. Been there and done that, as per the link in my post above.

    Deck leaks are what I have to watch out for on Drake. The planks and frames are all good. But the "roof" must be kept sound.

    I viewed the tutorials on butyl rubber and bedded everything in that. I didn't use anything at all that came in a tube. Just warm butyl rubber. "Squeeze out" is what you're looking for...



    Stripping paint with a torch is fast and easy. Then the residue is brittle, and sands away quickly with a random-orbit.

    Next -- have you got the guts to paint with latex? I did. Because it was the paint that was hardest to strip off the hull. The yacht paint came off in large flakes. The latex house paint was much more tenacious.

    Don't worry if the first coat of primer disappears into the wood -- that's a good thing.



    It'll look better with a couple of topcoats.



    Dave

  19. #19

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    One thing at this point you probably ought to ask yourself is; What is my real goal here? Are you looking for a complete restoration of a very pretty boat, or are you looking for a nice family boat? There's a lot of discussion of the work-to reward ratio on boat projects. It looks like one major benefit may be involving your family in a project that will pay dividends, possibly for generations to come. Great looking boat, good start! I'm looking forward to more pics
    Yes, I've been asking myself that a lot, often at about 2 AM with a worried knot in my gut ! I'm going to chip away at issues as best as I reasonably can, as time and money allow. A 'complete restoration' isn't really my goal here, just a safe fairly sound boat for weekend use and enjoyment.
    As far as the 'work to reward' ratio, I'd tried to get the guy I bought the boat from in on the ownership/work end of things by offering him the same money for both all the boat, and half the boat.
    Thought that was a pretty reasonable way to bring in shared costs and labour, but I guess when you want out, you want out !

  20. #20

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?



    That is a beautiful boat !

    Thanks very much for the link to your very interesting thread- it seems to point to a number of issues which I may have to worth through.
    I haven't got anything like your ability though, and don't think I'm up to parking the boat under a cover to do a thorough long-term restoration.
    It really is about keeping water out of the top of the boat, isn't it, not the bottom !
    As far as using latex paint goes, I'm open to it if it's proven to be a durable finish.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    One or two opinions on that have been registered here

    in fact...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf9Tz8JjWWk

  22. #22

    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Topsides stripped and sanded back to wood with some traces of red (lead ?) primer- nice mahogany which my buddy suggested I finish natural which would be a good idea if I had a surfeit of time and money instead of the reverse.
    In fact paint is likely to be play a larger role as I look to finishing work the mast will require in a year or so.
    Still, nice mahogany planking although now primed.
    IMG_0998.jpg

    Primed and some fiiler:
    IMG_1034.jpg
    Now raining so painting halted.
    Deck/plank repairs proceeding under a tarp.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Do we need to 'wood' the hull ?

    Very Nice! Looking forward to dry weather progress.

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