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Thread: HurtLocker Moment.

  1. #1
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    Default HurtLocker Moment.

    First let it be known I'm not a big fan of things electrical.

    Van II is been a bit Jinxed, Van III is in the process of being ordered, lets hope its less trouble. Van I is (knock on wood ) problem free.

    So yesterday I get a call from Renee in Van II "WE HAVE A PROBLEM !!!" Everything shut down and she smelled burning. I grabbed the toolbox and raced over.

    This is what I find

    IMG_6151.jpg IMG_6141.jpg

    So I was on the line with the tech walking me through how to disconnect the faulty battery and bypass and get up and running. Have I mentioned I don't like working with electricity? Got the equipment up and running and she finished the day. Since the van is so new they called a battery company in Anaheim and paid for a new $300 battery for me to pick up.

    Since I was initially complaining about burning cables so they sent me a replacement that thank God arrived today to make the repair ( great timing )

    I replaced the new cables and battery and we are good to go. OH BTW the damn things weigh like 100 lbs.

    IMG_6156.jpg

    IMG_6157.jpg

    All back together like nothing happened, and a kiss from Renee

    IMG_6160.jpg
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    I did industrial batteries for 40 years, that's the result of a high resistance connection. I'd suggest you feel the connections while a load is applied and check for heat. The copper lugs on the bus at the fuse don't look to be crimped very well. That type lug is best crimped & soldered.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Adams View Post
    I did industrial batteries for 40 years, that's the result of a high resistance connection. I'd suggest you feel the connections while a load is applied and check for heat. The copper lugs on the bus at the fuse don't look to be crimped very well. That type lug is best crimped & soldered.
    Ding Ding Ding give the man a cigar. Bob you nailed it !!! It was all about the crimping. All new cables are doubled crimped. How the hell would I know that would make such a big difference ? BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Adams View Post
    I did industrial batteries for 40 years, that's the result of a high resistance connection. I'd suggest you feel the connections while a load is applied and check for heat. The copper lugs on the bus at the fuse don't look to be crimped very well. That type lug is best crimped & soldered.
    good call

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    ^+1 And I will add that it appears to me that the terminal clamp shown in the first picture is too large for the diameter of the post on the battery. Loose connections = heat, high-resistance. Bad.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Ding Ding Ding give the man a cigar. Bob you nailed it !!! It was all about the crimping. All new cables are doubled crimped. How the hell would I know that would make such a big difference ? BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
    I was in an engine room when a wrench dropped onto ground and positive, went off like a cherry bomb as a cell popped open spraying acid everywhere. Next day my clothes are riddled with holes.

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    ^+1 And I will add that it appears to me that the terminal clamp shown in the first picture is too large for the diameter of the post on the battery. Loose connections = heat, high-resistance. Bad.

    Kevin
    No the terminal just F'n melted away !!!!
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Ding Ding Ding give the man a cigar. Bob you nailed it !!! It was all about the crimping. All new cables are doubled crimped. How the hell would I know that would make such a big difference ? BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
    Get a sparky to check over the electrics in all three vans. They say one is a silly number. What happened once can/will happen multiple times.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    ^+1 And I will add that it appears to me that the terminal clamp shown in the first picture is too large for the diameter of the post on the battery. Loose connections = heat, high-resistance. Bad.

    Kevin
    or it fit before it melted.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I was in an engine room when a wrench dropped onto ground and positive, went off like a cherry bomb as a cell popped open spraying acid everywhere. Next day my clothes are riddled with holes.
    Yea that's why I referred to it as a Hurt Locker moment !!!

    I made sure I put a dry towel over all areas I wasn't working on and held tight to the wrench.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I was in an engine room when a wrench dropped onto ground and positive, went off like a cherry bomb as a cell popped open spraying acid everywhere. Next day my clothes are riddled with holes.
    I've been in close proximity to 5 or 6 battery explosions, you will never catch me working around them without eye protection. The battery below exploded when an internal inter-cell connector failed and arced when a load was applied. Not to be trifled with!

    [IMG]DSC00082 by bobcadams, on Flickr[/IMG]
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    When i had my dodge cummings it jarred the batterie loose., a few times.


    I bungied it and put torch down roofing on the metal fender...

    Shade tree but worked great..

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
    its not the volts that kills ya
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Good repair. I have a number of large trucks with ganged up (big) batteries, and whenever possible I used a potted connection. There is a fuse that would work in that application up to 300 amps.



    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 03-13-2018 at 06:06 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    its not the volts that kills ya
    Yes it is...

    So, back to which kills you, the amps or volts. Given your body is a constant resistance, it really is a combination of both. Higher voltage means higher amperage, and thus higher voltage has more potential to kill. It takes only 100mA to stop your heart.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Joe, I gotta agree with the above - compare the crimp on the upper left in the second picture you posted, with the better crimp in the lower right - there are lots of references to proper crimping on the 'net and YouTube - also check the second picture in post # 14


    Rick

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    OH BTW the damn things weigh like 100 lbs.
    Specs say 125 pounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
    They make them in 12v also. Still 125 pounds.

    The quality of the connections only matters at high loads. Double crimping will help. But as someone suggested, you should test them at high load. MIght be good to do that with your third van when it comes.
    Life is complex.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Well I'm glad the specs didn't say 50 pounds and they "felt" like a hundred
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Did this happen when you were running the dog grooming equipment?

    I'm thinking take care to thoroughly clean all the terminals as stated above. Then use a infrared thermometer to check the terminals after running a load for a few minutes to make sure. These are quite inexpensive.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Greenpro-...&wl13=&veh=sem
    Will

  20. #20
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Clearly too much resistance. I hate to say it Joe but I would, without hesitation, go thru all of the systems and solder each of those copper lugs. Even if they're OK now they won't last. Copper corrodes and the resistance increases.

    Then the infra red thermometer as advised above.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Joe, just a word - I have a golf cart with similar large batteries - it also has a similar tray assembly to capture battery acid overflow. I always have on hand a bag of baking soda to neutralize any battery acid spills in the cart. It would be easy and inexpensive to tuck a bag of baking soda in each van....... only a suggestion.




    Rick

  22. #22
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    I agree with the suggestion to solder all of the battery cable lugs after crimping with the appropriate crimping tool for the type of connector.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Ding Ding Ding give the man a cigar. Bob you nailed it !!! It was all about the crimping. All new cables are doubled crimped. How the hell would I know that would make such a big difference ? BTW those huge batteries are only 6V !!!!
    FWIW, a pair of 6V batteries, in series (to create 12V) is an excellent alternative to 4D or 8D batteries.... they're normally described as 'golf cart' batteries, and are more economical than the 4D/8D types. Another advantage is that they can be lifted by mere mortals. My last sailboat used 4D batteries, and I could barely lift them... and that was when I was 15 years younger. 8D batteries basically require gorillas, to lift.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  24. #24
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Also FWIW:

    Trojan offers a battery water maintenance system. I don't know if you routinely check the water level in those batteries... but you certainly should. You might be interested in this:

    http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TRJN_HydroLink_DS.pdf
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  25. #25
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    If you're the number one trouble shooter, best start carrying and use an I.R. thermometer ( cheap enough, and it'll save you a lot of head scratching) . since you rely on a dealer to repair...you're going to see this again.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Not that I am suggesting that Joe gets one (the IR thermometer would be sufficient and is more affordable), but at the last shipyard I worked at it was part of the commissioning procedures to take IR thermography images of battery connections and breaker panel terminals to have a visual record of electrical connection temperatures. Proved to be good insurance on a couple of occasions.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Not that I am suggesting that Joe gets one (the IR thermometer would be sufficient and is more affordable), but at the last shipyard I worked at it was part of the commissioning procedures to take IR thermography images of battery connections and breaker panel terminals to have a visual record of electrical connection temperatures. Proved to be good insurance on a couple of occasions.
    Had to do this every year at 3 hospitals I was in charge of(only the electrical portion). and afterwards a report back to be part of the records. every trouble call a good i.r. thermo. came along. - about double crimping a lug...don't do it! the first crimp if dies and lug are properly selected, should be ideal. crimping and then rotating the lug 90 or 45 degrees for the second crimp- the first crimp is distorted by the second crimp. If on the other hand if the lugs sleeve or barrel is long enough.. crimp and then slide the dies along the sleeve to a new spot for number two crimp( I don't see enough sleeve length to do this in the pics)

  28. #28
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    FWIW, a pair of 6V batteries, in series (to create 12V) is an excellent alternative to 4D or 8D batteries.... they're normally described as 'golf cart' batteries, and are more economical than the 4D/8D types. Another advantage is that they can be lifted by mere mortals. My last sailboat used 4D batteries, and I could barely lift them... and that was when I was 15 years younger. 8D batteries basically require gorillas, to lift.
    Golf cart batteries are GC-2s. The batteries Joe has are 903s, commonly used in floor scrubbing machines, about 6 inches taller than golf cart batteries and weigh in at 120 pounds.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I was in an engine room when a wrench dropped onto ground and positive, went off like a cherry bomb as a cell popped open spraying acid everywhere. Next day my clothes are riddled with holes.
    One of my co-workers, a "bright spark", was measuring a 12V lead-acid battery of decent amp-hour capacity for modelling purposes and went to measure the distance between the tabs with a pair of stainless steel calipers...
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    "Soldered" battery cable connections are unreliable. Solder melts at too low a temperature to take a heavy load.
    "Potted" terminal ends in lead or bronze are the best, but you have to order those special. I often use an over the counter "potted" cable and lead it to a heavy buss bar for distribution.

    A "copper compresion terminal" is also very good. Bronze I think, they are constructed like a Sta-lok rigging terminal end and have not given me any problems. They are available for specific wire gauges, positive and negative, and various angles.

    http://www.quickcable.com/products.php?pageId=75


    IMG_3671.jpg

  31. #31
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    thanks guys Just ordered the Etekcity Lasergrip 774 Non-contact Digital Laser Infrared Thermometer Temperature Gun -58℉~ 716℉ (-50℃ ~ 380℃) from Amazon delivery tomorrow shipping free.



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  32. #32
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Some good info here. Miss you Chuck.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...inal-connector

  33. #33
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    Default Re: HurtLocker Moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    thanks guys Just ordered the Etekcity Lasergrip 774 Non-contact Digital Laser Infrared Thermometer Temperature Gun -58℉~ 716℉ (-50℃ ~ 380℃) from Amazon delivery tomorrow shipping free.



    I've got the same one, use it for everything from cars to homebrew.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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