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Thread: Foiling Dutchman

  1. #1
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    Default Foiling Dutchman

    Has anyone ever seen images or video of a Flying Dutchman foiling? Just curious as to what it would look like and how she'd go. She's already fast so.... faster? lol
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    I have a picture of a foiling 470 - french - but not an FD.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Cool. Thanks.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    I think that there are a number factors that make the FD an unlikely candidate for modern foiling.

    It is relatively underpowered compare to say a Cherub which as be foiled effectively and recently
    FD 0.14 Sq M per Kg, Cherub 0.31 Sq M per Kg (loads of vid on youtube)

    The FD is an expensive boat and so people are unlikely to experiment and make the boat out of class. Development classes date quickly, and many being home built a light one can be picked up cheaply

    The FD has not moved with the times, still single wire compared to I14 and Cherub with two on the wire

    The 20ft length is useful to get to foiling speed but after that it just becomes weight and with scaling laws a big weight.

    PS - was talking about the film ‘Funny Business’ last night, a disturbing psychological thriller where the star of the film is an FD

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Yes, the FD's weight would be a hindrance when foiling. One other major issue is that foilers have such high apparent windspeeds that they need a very low drag rig. The classic example is the foiling Laser, which uses a fully-flattened Radial rig (5.7m) even in light winds where a Radial with normal settings or the 7m standard rig would normally be faster. The problem is that the more powerful rigs may get you to foiling speeds faster, but they produce much more drag at high windspeeds and therefore create significant speed limits when foiling as well as probably creating handling issues. The FD's rig is very controllable but from watching guys like multiple world champ Fred McCrossin sail his in big winds it would appear that the drag is much higher than in a good foiler rig.

    They tried a two-on-the-wire FD in the form of the Mach 2, but it didn't really work. Incidentally, Cherubs here in Australia have remained with one trap and are far more popular than the double trap UK boats. The failure of boats like the LAser 5000, Boss, Vector, 29erXX etc seems to indicate that very few people want twin traps on monos.

  8. #8
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    Default

    I would not disagree with anything you have said, it takes a special breed (and generally a heavy wallet) to twin wire, I14 and 49r perhaps the most successful here.

    The RYA has just published the 2018 Portsmouth Handicap numbers which I like to study in detail. It gives the races sailed as returns for 2017 which is interesting. I fully accept it is not a complete picture (for one it excludes ‘experimental craft’ I14, Moth, Cherub to name a few, and some people mainly sail at open meetings and OD fleets. Also it is skewed towards establish boats purely on the momentum of the number of boats. It does however give a good indication of what the average Joe is racing regularly.

    It is not until number 15 does a trapeze boat even appear, only two asymmetric boats are in the top 15 and 9 of the 15 are single handed.

    Though there is a lot of hype about foiling I firmly believe the average Joe wants a boat that will test his boat on boat sailing skills not a thrill machine where technique reigns supreme




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    What I get up to
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    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    GP 14 over a Fireball? Interesting. Completely different boats.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    GP 14 over a Fireball? Interesting. Completely different boats.
    The GP is over a decade older and quite an accessible dinghy so a choice for club racer
    National Championships wise GP 14 -63 boats and Fireball -54 boats
    Worlds wise I am sure the fireball would come out on top

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    The problem with super high performance dinghies seems to be that those with the fitness and ability to sail them can't easily afford them and those who can afford them may not have the physical attributes to master them.The more pedestrian boats in long established classes are much easier to afford and to sail-even if not to sail really well.If somebody finds it interesting to take a fairly traditional boat and make it foil-why not?It won't be for everybody but it does brighten the day to see a bit of creativity.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    The problem with super high performance dinghies seems to be that those with the fitness and ability to sail them can't easily afford them and those who can afford them may not have the physical attributes to master them.The more pedestrian boats in long established classes are much easier to afford and to sail-even if not to sail really well.If somebody finds it interesting to take a fairly traditional boat and make it foil-why not?It won't be for everybody but it does brighten the day to see a bit of creativity.
    Agree with the comments about super high performance dinghies. A couple of decades ago when the industry was telling us that "skiffs" like the Laser 5000 and Boss were the future of the sport, they ignored the fact that skiffs are only popular on one corner of one country where they have unique economic, legal and environmental conditions.

    Sure, there's no reason not to put foils on a conventional boat; it's just that there are good physical reasons why it won't perform anything like a modern foiler.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I would not disagree with anything you have said, it takes a special breed (and generally a heavy wallet) to twin wire, I14 and 49r perhaps the most successful here.

    The RYA has just published the 2018 Portsmouth Handicap numbers which I like to study in detail. It gives the races sailed as returns for 2017 which is interesting. I fully accept it is not a complete picture (for one it excludes ‘experimental craft’ I14, Moth, Cherub to name a few, and some people mainly sail at open meetings and OD fleets. Also it is skewed towards establish boats purely on the momentum of the number of boats. It does however give a good indication of what the average Joe is racing regularly.

    It is not until number 15 does a trapeze boat even appear, only two asymmetric boats are in the top 15 and 9 of the 15 are single handed.

    Though there is a lot of hype about foiling I firmly believe the average Joe wants a boat that will test his boat on boat sailing skills not a thrill machine where technique reigns supreme




    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa
    Agree with all that. It would be nice if World Sailing and the sailing press looked at what the average sailor actually chose and learned from it, rather than telling everyone to sail foilers!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Agree with all that. It would be nice if World Sailing and the sailing press looked at what the average sailor actually chose and learned from it, rather than telling everyone to sail foilers!
    Sailing is dichotomy, on any Sunday in the season my 12 year old daughter, guys over 70 and national champions all compete in the same race. Most people are in boats that cost less then Harken’s new mainsheet system - essential kit to sail The Olympic Nacra 17.

    It will be interesting to see how World Sailings attempts to become exclusive go but we are way way off topic.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Foiling Dutchman

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Agree with all that. It would be nice if World Sailing and the sailing press looked at what the average sailor actually chose and learned from it, rather than telling everyone to sail foilers!
    Still off topic but thought this might interest you Chris if you don’t follow Y&Y

    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/new...gh-Christensen

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