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Thread: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    well... if only the "bad guy" has a gun he can kill "good guys" until "good guys" from the police station can arrive to stop him... typically 6-8 minutes.

    but if some of the "good guys" already on scene have guns they can immediately scare the "bad guy" off or maybe shoot him, hopefully with out injuring more other "good guys" than the "bad guy" would have injured if allowed to continue shooting "good guys" un-contested.


    that's the basic argument.
    It is the argument of someone who has watched one too many Clint Eastwood movies, and cannot distinguish real life from cinema fantasy. In the movies, it looks SOOOOO easy to take down the bad guy.

    In real life?

    I have seen the video of the trained police officer delivering a lecture on gun safety, who shot himself in the foot while demonstrating. Training and experience is a good thing, but there is no way that a teacher, unless the teacher has had extensive police or military training (meaning: virtually no teacher) is going to be prepared, like your 'fantasy' thinks. No teacher in his right mind would risk the possibility that he/she might end up shooting an innocent student, no matter WHAT the result of the incident was.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    It is the argument of someone who has watched one too many Clint Eastwood movies, and cannot distinguish real life from cinema fantasy. In the movies, it looks SOOOOO easy to take down the bad guy.

    In real life?

    I have seen the video of the trained police officer delivering a lecture on gun safety, who shot himself in the foot while demonstrating. Training and experience is a good thing, but there is no way that a teacher, unless the teacher has had extensive police or military training (meaning: virtually no teacher) is going to be prepared, like your 'fantasy' thinks. No teacher in his right mind would risk the possibility that he/she might end up shooting an innocent student, no matter WHAT the result of the incident was.
    Keep on being reminded of the NY cops taking out a single murderer on the street. 9 bystanders hit by errant police rounds. That was with NYPD firearms training.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    well... if only the "bad guy" has a gun he can kill "good guys" until "good guys" from the police station can arrive to stop him... typically 6-8 minutes.

    but if some of the "good guys" already on scene have guns they can immediately scare the "bad guy" off or maybe shoot him, hopefully with out injuring more other "good guys" than the "bad guy" would have injured if allowed to continue shooting "good guys" un-contested.


    that's the basic argument.
    Yes it is and you conveniently ignore my and others points why it’s a nonsense argument. If/then argument based on who is carrying a gun doesn't begin to describe the reality of the situation. The only way your argument makes sense is if the holding of the gun carries some magical power to freeze time, shift gears from being a teacher to being a super warrior aware of what “the bad guy” is going to do in a fraction of a second. Reagans armed guards didn’t use their guns and they didnt prevent people from being hit.

    Btw it looks like you’ve abandoned the opening argument for your “basic argument”
    Last edited by LeeG; 03-11-2018 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Time for a tack, he’s back! Randy Rainbow that is. Oh Dana Loesch your Superbeets gig could be in trouble.



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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    another False Flag argument...


    arming teachers has NOTHING to do with making them into expert marksmen.... Science and Fact Based research shows that one of the few ways to stop an active shooter is to fight back, not kill them, simply put up some resistence to make them stop targeting victims and take cover themselves.

    a teacher firing their gun in the general direction of a shooter, even firing blanks could well mean the difference between 17 and no victims.
    And I ask again about a police officer entering the room with an armed teacher. That split second training the teacher DOESN'T have could end in ruin. The question you pose is a no-win situation, Daniel. If I say I don't trust a teacher to have a gun, but say I trust them to watch my kids, it makes me look like a hypocrite. To be honest, I am a fairly well rounded person, I do not lose my temper, and I am good under stress, I would NOT trust myself with a gun in the situations outlined. I do not have the training to hit in a fire fight, I do not have the training to distinguish friend or foe in a split second, and I certainly do not have the training to take a life without worry.

    BTW.. a False Flag is when the government does something they want to blame on somebody else, you accused me of a "straw man" argument, which is still not the same thing. I just threw the complications of life into the equations you threw out there so simply
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    What seems to be ignored in this argument is the obvious: Teachers confront recalcitrant students every day. Attacks by students are far more common than a shooter coming into the school. Do we really want teachers armed when handling this part of their daily activities?

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    This is true, Dan. My niece recently posted up a video on FB where a freshmen in her HS jumped a teacher and was busy bashing her head into the floor before other students pulled her off. They kept yelling "she's a teacher!" at the girl, but she kept at it. Happened in Carlisle PA. Yesterday. My niece hates that school and can't want to graduate to get away from the other students, she does not feel sfe there at all
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    What seems to be ignored in this argument is the obvious: Teachers confront recalcitrant students every day. Attacks by students are far more common than a shooter coming into the school. Do we really want teachers armed when handling this part of their daily activities?
    ok,ok but that’s a reality based argument. The simple answer is the teacher will be trained! It’s like being armed but better. Or as the POTUS put it “gun adept”, “highly trained people that have a natural talent like hitting a baseball, or hitting a golf ball, or putting.“ Or in the shooter scenario people who are highly trained to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime. Like an assasin who is also patient, empathetic and able to teach seventh grade students. Perfectly realistic, all that’s needed is a good guy with a gun.
    Last edited by LeeG; 03-11-2018 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    This is true, Dan. My niece recently posted up a video on FB where a freshmen in her HS jumped a teacher and was busy bashing her head into the floor before other students pulled her off. They kept yelling "she's a teacher!" at the girl, but she kept at it. Happened in Carlisle PA. Yesterday. My niece hates that school and can't want to graduate to get away from the other students, she does not feel sfe there at all
    And in that scenario the highly trained teacher with natural talent will remove the holstered weapon and kill the deranged student. What else could she do? I mean a 150lb person could slam the teachers skull down so quickly causing permanent damage before anyone could help her it’s obvious a gun would stop that.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    And in that scenario the highly trained teacher with natural talent will remove the holstered weapon and kill the deranged student. What else could she do? I mean a 150lb person could slam the teachers skull down so quickly causing permanent damage before anyone could help her it’s obvious a gun would stop that.
    Then the deranged adrenaline pumped student has an unconscious good guys gun for the taking.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    But seriously what is the argument against arming teachers?
    Their job is to nurture, not kill.

    But seriously, what is the argument against creating a safe society.. which after all, is the over-riding purpose of society..

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Then the deranged adrenaline pumped student has an unconscious good guys gun for the taking.
    Well that would just be bad training and the teacher wasn’t really naturally adept at their ground game.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Their job is to nurture, not kill.

    But seriously, what is the argument against creating a safe society.. which after all, is the over-riding purpose of society..
    But the highly skilled and naturally adept ones could do the killing. It’s only reasonable that some should die to save the class.

    I think I’ve got it figured out.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    How do you 'ignore' individual posters on this forum?

    Thanks, Andy
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Rather than arming teachers, it's not all that difficult to screen everybody entering a school to remove all weapons from everybody--they do it for air travel, and some schools do have similar systems in place. Might also note that some schools in Florida assign guards in individual classrooms--a friend's daughter teaches in one.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    But the highly skilled and naturally adept ones could do the killing. It’s only reasonable that some should die to save the class.

    I think I’ve got it figured out.
    righties love them some 'social darwinism'.. evolution, not so much..


    Andy - click on the user's name, choose 'view profile', choose 'add to ignore list', & bob's yer uncle.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG
    How do you 'ignore' individual posters on this forum?

    Thanks, Andy
    Click on "Forum Actions," select "General Settings," click on "Edit Ignore List."

    You are welcome. By the way, once you add someone to your "Ignore List" they can also no longer pester you with pm's.
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Love those simplistic “still beat your wife” questions. Remember the idea of school nurses giving out condoms? Schools getting races together. Schools feeding kids. How did all of societies problems end up in the schools. You want a gun totter in a school? Shell out the money you adore and hire a cop. Here in NJ the gov told a teacher to sit down and shut up and the blockheads re-elected him. Now a teacher is supposed to get in a gunfight? Wise up. It’s reality tv that’s all.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Thanks, Durnik and Tom. That's MUCH better.

    Andy
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Thanks, Durnik and Tom. That's MUCH better.

    Andy
    As several have bemoaned, you will still see the posts that others quote. That however can be endured.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Yes it is and you conveniently ignore my and others points why it’s a nonsense argument. If/then argument based on who is carrying a gun doesn't begin to describe the reality of the situation. The only way your argument makes sense is if the holding of the gun carries some magical power to freeze time, shift gears from being a teacher to being a super warrior aware of what “the bad guy” is going to do in a fraction of a second. Reagans armed guards didn’t use their guns and they didnt prevent people from being hit.

    Btw it looks like you’ve abandoned the opening argument for your “basic argument”
    NO RAMBO needed.

    I already adressed this comment... SUPER WARRIOR is not the goal... putting up more of a fight than throwing office supplies is all that is often necessary to make a Gunman switch gears from killing rampage to hiding and fearing for their own life.

    A gun with blanks would likely be as effective as live ammo as long as the Bad Guy doesn't know it's blanks.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    How do you 'ignore' individual posters on this forum?

    Thanks, Andy
    you'll still see the thread titles... this one really says it all in the title.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    ok,ok but that’s a reality based argument. The simple answer is the teacher will be trained! It’s like being armed but better. Or as the POTUS put it “gun adept”, “highly trained people that have a natural talent like hitting a baseball, or hitting a golf ball, or putting.“ Or in the shooter scenario people who are highly trained to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime. Like an assasin who is also patient, empathetic and able to teach seventh grade students. Perfectly realistic, all that’s needed is a good guy with a gun.
    Wow air tight "reality based" argument...


    NO RAMBO needed.

    I already adressed this comment... SUPER WARRIOR is not the goal... putting up more of a fight than throwing office supplies is all that is often necessary to make a Gunman switch gears from killing rampage to hiding and fearing for their own life.

    A gun with blanks would likely be as effective as live ammo as long as the Bad Guy doesn't know it's blanks.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    NO RAMBO needed.

    I already adressed this comment... SUPER WARRIOR is not the goal... putting up more of a fight than throwing office supplies is all that is often necessary to make a Gunman switch gears from killing rampage to hiding and fearing for their own life.

    A gun with blanks would likely be as effective as live ammo as long as the Bad Guy doesn't know it's blanks.
    Nonsense, now you’re advocating for the appearance of a gun. Shooter shows up, mayhem and blood ensues and you’re shooting away with blanks. One person with the intention and means to kill and the other pretending. “pew, pew, pew”.

    Why the capitalized common nouns?

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Will someone please nip round and please count Daniels fingers?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Nonsense, now you’re advocating for the appearance of a gun. Shooter shows up, mayhem and blood ensues and you’re shooting away with blanks. One person with the intention and means to kill and the other pretending. “pew, pew, pew”.

    Why the capitalized common nouns?

    Like we said,

    If a teacher can not be trusted with the simple task of carrying a stupid dumb firearm why would any one trust that person with the vitally important task of teaching thousands of our nations children important information and life lessons?

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    What seems to be ignored in this argument is the obvious: Teachers confront recalcitrant students every day. Attacks by students are far more common than a shooter coming into the school. Do we really want teachers armed when handling this part of their daily activities?

    so you are asking... do we want someone who may be attacked to be armed? if you thought you might be attacked would you want to be armed?

    and getting into fights with students is not in any teaching job description I've ever read.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Like we said,

    If a teacher can not be trusted with the simple task of carrying a stupid dumb firearm why would any one trust that person with the vitally important task of teaching thousands of our nations children important information and life lessons?
    You said it. Who else is speaking with you? The task as you describe it is substantially more challenging than carrying a gun just as sailing offshore in rough conditions is substantially different than paying the slip fee on the boat. Task A is not the same as task B. You’re all over the map on the topic with the only consistent thread being carrying a gun. Thanks for the exchange, I will end my part here.

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Four highly trained an armed police officers in Lakeview Wa were murdered as they were sitting in a coffee shop. 4 good guys with guns.
    On the morning of Sunday, November 29, 2009, the four officers were working on their laptop computers prior to the start of their shift inside a Forza Coffee Company coffee shop in nearby Parkland, adjacent to McChord Air Force Base. All four were in full uniform, armed, and wearing bulletproof vests.[14][15][16]Clemmons drove a white pickup truck to Allen's home, then Allen drove him past the coffee shop. After they saw marked police patrol cars in the parking lot, Allen drove back past the coffee shop and parked nearby. Some reports from witnesses said Clemmons parked his truck in a car wash stall at the coffee shop and pretended to clean the vehicle, but never turned the hose on.[11][12]
    At approximately 8:15 AM (UTC-8), Clemmons entered the coffee shop, approached the counter, turned around, and opened fire on the four seated officers with a Glock 17 9mm semi-automatic handgun. He also carried a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver. Sergeant Mark Renninger and Officer Tina Griswold were killed as they sat in their chairs, both shot in the head. Officer Ronald Owens was shot in the neck as he stood up and attempted to draw his weapon. Officer Greg Richards managed to fight back against Clemmons and fired his own weapon, hitting Clemmons in the abdomen, before succumbing to a shot to the head. Clemmons then stole Richards's Glock before fleeing the scene.[14][17][18] Clemmons was then seen getting into a vehicle which fled the scene. Neither of the two coffee shop employees nor the other customers in the store were hurt, and no money was taken from the cash register. Investigators say the murder was a targeted attack against police officers in general, since none of the four officers were individually targeted and robbery was ruled out as a motive.[19] Clemmons returned to the truck and Allen drove him away. Allen later told detectives he stopped at an intersection and abandoned Clemmons and the truck, claiming he "wanted of no part of this". However, the police later disputed this claim and said there was no evidence Allen abandoned the vehicle.[11][12]
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakewood_shooting
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Daniel, stop while you are behind. We have all given our reasons why this is a bad idea and you dismiss them with a blanket "meh". I am done here
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Daniel is just having fun, he can't really support the idea .
    My wife was a primary teacher and a good one. The thought of her with a gun being relied on to defend children again some insane gunman is ludicrous .

    The skills required of a teacher and a defence guard could hardly be further apart.
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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Daniel is just having fun, he can't really support the idea .


    The skills required of a teacher and a defence guard could hardly be further apart.
    He has the power of belief. Supporting the idea with reason is not needed as seen by his repeating the initial argument.

    Like a cross warding off vampires a gun will ward off evil. Once you believe you are then protected. Denied the fetish he wants it more. “my precious”

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    well... if only the "bad guy" has a gun he can kill "good guys" until "good guys" from the police station can arrive to stop him... typically 6-8 minutes.

    but if some of the "good guys" already on scene have guns they can immediately scare the "bad guy" off or maybe shoot him, hopefully with out injuring more other "good guys" than the "bad guy" would have injured if allowed to continue shooting "good guys" un-contested.


    that's the basic argument.
    And if the bad guy was unable to get a gun in the first place.....as in civilised countries...

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Like we said,

    If a teacher can not be trusted with the simple task of carrying a stupid dumb firearm why would any one trust that person with the vitally important task of teaching thousands of our nations children important information and life lessons?
    What in fecks name do you think teaching children and armed security have in common? Why do you insist on this false equivalence of 'trust' in those 2 activities?

    You are are attempting a quite rediculous argument.

    Ps, any thoughts on that bet I laid down for you?

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    Default Re: If u would not trust a teacher with a GUN, Why would you trust them with a Child?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    What in fecks name do you think teaching children and armed security have in common? Why do you insist on this false equivalence of 'trust' in those 2 activities?

    You are are attempting a quite rediculous argument.

    Ps, any thoughts on that bet I laid down for you?
    This thread illustrates the challenge our society has for developing rational public policy on so many issues. The abstract thinking your average fourteen year old is capable of leaves the room when fear and identity issues enter. The gross misuse of the word trust by Noyes would be like using more epoxy hardener because one wants a faster cure rate.

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