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Thread: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

  1. #1
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    Default Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Might want to dig into this a little. One of the rescues was Randy Smyth who was pushing a radical tri hard on the way to a record; he was headed around Florida. A second was also a tri. Both were turtles. Multi hulls are not easy to unturtle unless they have systems in place. How many Hobie cats or other production multi's are set up to unturtle? The monohull apparently was a Sea Pearl, again a very difficult boat to self rescue as it is a leeboard boat so hard to generate the righting moment of a centerboard boat. One of the Maine TSCA folks ( a very experienced sailor) had a very bad experience with one that did need a CG rescue.

    How many of the nay sayers on this one go sailing with dry suits, pfd with survival gear, and a PLB?
    Ben Fuller
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Sorry to hear about the death. They say it may have been a heart attack. If I have,to go though, I can hope it is doing something like this instead of laying in a hospital bed.

    I don't understand the pearl. Once I broke my masts that were stuck in the mud, I was able to turn her over, drop the anchor, and bail her out pretty easily. I had a goodly amount of flotation. I also had a large eye nut on the inside end of the lee board bolt with a large diameter dock line preattached so I could stand on the hull and pull the opposite side. Maybe that made the difference. The conditions seemed worse when I was turtle though it is hard to compare on video.

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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Sounds like you were rigged for righting; breaking the masts may have helped. Some boats have assymetric side floatation. If I had a Pearl I'd rig it with a short removable sliding seat. Besides helping in a breeze, a sliding seat is really handy when righting or unturtleing.
    Ben Fuller
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    I admit I'm an outsider to such craft, but it seems odd to have a cruiser that sells itself as seaworthy that cannot be easily righted, like most day racing boats in most countries. Even an 18 Foot Skiff can be pulled up from a turtle, and it has a mast about 36 feet high.

    Ben, I'm not sure if there's any Hobie cat that cannot recover from a turtle. Maybe the 21; the 20 felt like it would be popped up if it was windy enough.

    The thing is that capsize recovery for real is often a skill that has to be practised and learned.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    The critical bit on a turtle is developing asymmetry somehow. Easier to do on a double handed cat than on a single hander. The tri that went over were really stable upside down! I believe that my friend with the Sea Pearl put his up for sale after his adventure off New Hampshire. If you have a centerboard or dagger board you have a nice place to pull, not so much with leeboards. Tom#3 had rigged a righting lines.
    Ben Fuller
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    The critical bit on a turtle is developing asymmetry somehow.
    Yep, and that's also a matter of practice. As you know, there's a reason skiff crews sometimes end up with one guy hanging on the centreboard, another guy hanging off him, and the third guy hanging off the pair of them to get lots of weight out to the side of the inverted hull. It's second nature IF you do it a few times but if you're not dressed for it or used to it, you'd have little chance to get it right.

    I tend to believe that the unique characteristics of each nation's boats are intelligent responses to their wider culture and environment, but the US attitude towards dinghies that cannot be recovered from a capsize is one I struggle to understand, and using such craft for an offshore marathon is even more difficult to fathom.

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    Default

    Prevention is always better than the cure. I haven’t seen any EC boats with mast floats.


    I use this type on my 16ft plastic boat when taking kids out, sealed mast are also extremely beneficial. The downside is however the boat can blow away from the sailors. With correct buoyancy of the mast you can slow the turtle down but the boat will not blow away.

    I also use righting lines which stop the need for getting on the board and right the boat quicker reducing the risk for a turtle. A method of getting back onboard is also critical.

    I am sure all competitors had self rescue plans but is is very easy for a string of little incidents to escalate into a major problem.


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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    People involved in racing no matter what the vehicle of conveyance, are always pushing to the limits of the equipment and themselves. The death is very unfortunate but is not surprising. Hopefully few recreational sailors would subject themselves to the extremes of a race minded individual. Racers crash out in every sport and accept the consequences of their decisions.

    I think there is a problem expecting public agencies to provide rescues of privately run events where individuals take risks beyond what a reasonable person would decide to do.
    Last edited by navydog; 03-12-2018 at 07:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Bummed out.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    I'd like to hear more about Randy's situation. He turtled in an earlier version of that same boat a few years ago and was able to right it in rough conditions. I wonder what was different this time. He was able in that earlier situation to swing the amas against the hull so it was easy to roll back over, then swing them out again. (Hence the name "Scissors")
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    When I was checking out his boat on the Friday before the start, I overheard a conversation where someone asked about whether the amas swing and he indicated that they did.

    Also, I have seen a few EC boats with mast floats. The memorable float was a green turtle.

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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Yep, and that's also a matter of practice. As you know, there's a reason skiff crews sometimes end up with one guy hanging on the centreboard, another guy hanging off him, and the third guy hanging off the pair of them to get lots of weight out to the side of the inverted hull. It's second nature IF you do it a few times but if you're not dressed for it or used to it, you'd have little chance to get it right.

    I tend to believe that the unique characteristics of each nation's boats are intelligent responses to their wider culture and environment, but the US attitude towards dinghies that cannot be recovered from a capsize is one I struggle to understand, and using such craft for an offshore marathon is even more difficult to fathom.
    Statement is a little presumptuous. The Sea Pearl is a unique boat, a double leeboard cat ketch designed for poking around Florida's waters never intended for racing. I've been sailing US dinghies for 50 years or more, never had a problem unturtling any thing I've sailed from Lightings on down. The older designs which date to before self rescue was common, somewhere in the 1950s, have had floatation added. The biggest hassle in the oar / sail communities is that some folks did not grow up in the dinghy wars and that some of the modern designs for same need to have buoyancy added.
    Ben Fuller
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Yep, and that's also a matter of practice. As you know, there's a reason skiff crews sometimes end up with one guy hanging on the centreboard, another guy hanging off him, and the third guy hanging off the pair of them to get lots of weight out to the side of the inverted hull. It's second nature IF you do it a few times but if you're not dressed for it or used to it, you'd have little chance to get it right.

    I tend to believe that the unique characteristics of each nation's boats are intelligent responses to their wider culture and environment, but the US attitude towards dinghies that cannot be recovered from a capsize is one I struggle to understand, and using such craft for an offshore marathon is even more difficult to fathom.
    Smyth has been able to right his boats from capsizes before, as you might expect from a former sailing Olympian. Friedman was dismasted and apparently did not capsize. The Sea Pearl should have been recoverable with a righting line.

    I'm not sure what happened with Smyth or the Sea Pearl. Friedman was sailing what appears to be a modified Laser, so your criticism doesn't apply there.



    Here's Smyth's boat:



    The low-volume amas seem like they could be a problem in a sudden gust, because it looks like they rely on planing to give the boat stability.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Friedman's was a heavily modded Laser 2. Looked like fun on the beach. Didn't see any provision for alternative propulsion, but I didn't ask him about it.
    I saw masthead floats. Mostly - but not exclusively - on the smaller boats. I had foam panels sewn into the head of my sail, for the same effect - with hopefully less wind resistance.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Smyth has been able to right his boats from capsizes before, as you might expect from a former sailing Olympian. Friedman was dismasted and apparently did not capsize. The Sea Pearl should have been recoverable with a righting line.
    I've read several accounts of Sea Pearls that have capsized and it appears that once the boat turns turtle it's nearly impossible to right without outside assistance.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike V. View Post
    I've read several accounts of Sea Pearls that have capsized and it appears that once the boat turns turtle it's nearly impossible to right without outside assistance.
    Then Chris is right, the boat should not be used for an event like this.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Then Chris is right, the boat should not be used for an event like this.
    I guess that would be up to the organizer; anyway, what I worked out with the local Sea Pearl owner that had a bad day in cold water was the addition of an old timey sliding seat, a nuisance in the boat as you'd need to get over it going forward and aft but it would be contained with in the beam of the boat like the old sailing canoes were. Could be used for their designed purpose but also give you something to stand on if upside down. Combined with a righting line it would work fine.
    Ben Fuller
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Everglades Challenge, very unfortunate news

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike V. View Post
    I've read several accounts of Sea Pearls that have capsized and it appears that once the boat turns turtle it's nearly impossible to right without outside assistance.
    I've read this also. It's simply not true in my experience. Perhaps due to the flotation I had on board or perhaps the relatively rough sea-state, strangely, helped me out.

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