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Thread: thoughts on what to build for my needs

  1. #1
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    Default thoughts on what to build for my needs

    This is my first post here but i have been a visitor many times over the last few years,I am looking to start on the construction of my first boat and am in need of input on what to build for my needs.While this will be my first boat it will not be my first large scale project I am a machinist/millwright by trade with 38 years in the field as well as an avid builder of "toy" projects for longer than that. In my field if you last in it you acquire the skill of being proficient doing things that you have never done before as most every job is unique
    What I want/need my boat to do is provide a platform for extended fishing/camping trips on the lakes on the Colorado River here in the Southwest US for myself and one or two grand kids,I want sail as the primary power with the possibility for an electric powered auxiliary motor. i have been looking at designs based on the working craft of 100 or so years ago.
    I have a short list but am in noway wed to any of them as I have just enough knowledge to bungle this choice with style.............
    I have been looking at boats fairly heavy for their size with internal ballast and a fair amount of sail area these lakes can be quite unpredictable in a short span of time and are fairly large, The idea of internal ballast could also pull double duty as power for the motor by using AGM batteries as ballast.......
    Thanks in advance for your input.
    Steve.



    here is my list in no real order, but it gives Y'All an idea of what appeals to me...........

    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Pocahontas.html This is what first caught my eye but I think it would need to be stretched a bit to truly suit my needs.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/sel-18.7snipa.htm This would serve as is.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-...6mflushing.htm As would this.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/jw-pilgrim.htm

  2. #2
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Welcome Steve.

    The flushing will be most likely the easiest to plank up, the Snipa is done in 2 layers to get those bends. There was a forum member in France building one, but he seems to have been absent for some time.
    Pilgrim would be a different style to the snipa, How about Johns 6M Whaler? I think the outboard arrangement in whaler is better than a bracket hanging off a transom.
    So many boats that might suit. Viviers Ebihen might be worth a look, various rig choices depending on how much rope you want to pull, or performace required.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Oh, man, I really like that Snipa. That’ll turn heads wherever you go. I bet you could fit a well for a Torqueedo electric outboard.

    Do you know about Bertil Andersson’s Boatplan website? https://batritningar.se/en

  4. #4
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    How about a replica of John Wesley Powell's boat, the EMMA DEAN, from his 1869 expedition on the Colorado River? He sat in the chair mounted up on deck for a better view. And don't you love that transom? Not bad for a man with one arm.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    In a change - I have been grooving on luggers lately. I think maybe a shallow draft, seaworthy boat that you can run up a beach and tow fully loaded without braking a sweat are great factors to consider. They do take a small motor 2 hp Honda for example which will push it to hull speed and well as able to row. Reducing sail area is a easy and you can tarp it for beach or hole camping.

    i am going to Amsterdam next week to meet up with a lugger designer with a boat I do like very much.



    Also I do also like the Selway-fisher. http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm
    King Moonraiser:
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    I'm a big fan of Don Kurylkos' designs. I plan to start building the 18' Alaska this year. His D18 Myst design is beamier and internally ballasted. He no longer has a webpage that I can see. He is a member on the forum and can be contacted via PM. There are several build threads on the forums as well.

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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    I designed together with N. A. Klaas Bes the lugger in #5. I admire the 18' Alaska myself but I prefer clinker ply as strippers require lots of sanding nasty stuff. It is also more expensive. Frank

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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    ^ What Frank said. As much as i can admire the looks of a round bilge strip plank hull, the amount of glue and sanding are ,for me, a definate turn off. A well lined off multi-plank glued lap would be my build choice, if only to save my worn out elbows from too much of the above. Decent plywood needs no other finishing apart from a paint system.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Y'All have brought up many things that I had not considered and that was exactly what I needed to hear, it is far to easy to become myopic when working in a vacuum.
    The build is as much a part of undertaking this project as sailing it is for me but there is no reason to make it more complicated that is necessary to get the boat I want.
    I recently acquired a stitch & glue 15' "dory" that is ideal for the small lakes near my home that i can use to brush up my skills on as I haven't sailed since I was a kid some 4 decades ago.
    It is a fun little boat and it's light weight construction makes it quick and easy to get in and out of the water by myself, but it seems to me to be a very fragile little boat that could just be my perception but i will treat it as such in case I'm correct.
    It is also too "tender" for my 275# frame to move around in to use for fishing it seems to me..........
    This and wanting to bounce around the shore lines of the bigger lakes here is why I'm drawn towards the more traditional work boat designs and their heavier and more robust construction,more "pickup truck" than "SUV" so to speak.
    As far as plywood goes is true "marine plywood" a must to me it would seem so but it looks like about a 1000 mile round trip to buy if I want to pick out the sheets my self and I'm not sure I would want to rely on the quality of what was picked out and shipped to me by someone who would not have to use what they picked out.
    Another question i have is I see some plans come with the files for CNC cutting as a machinist that makes sense,but where would one get them cut would a cabinet makers shop do that?
    Well I need to redo my search with more attention being paid to the construction method,from my other projects I know that knowledge is power and research time is paid back tenfold in the long run.
    Thanks for the input and please keep it coming.
    Steve.

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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    The build is as much a part of undertaking this project as sailing it is for me but there is no reason to make it more complicated that is necessary to get the boat I want.

    Steve.
    Your initial search has turned up some very different boats. I'd expect the Welsford boat to be completely up to your needs as well as the most straight forward build, apart from the ballast which looks to be poured lead, although I haven't read the details on it. But Pilgrim will be a robust and capable craft with a minimum of parts to fit together. On the other end of the spectrum would be Snipa which looks more like a historical replica and would be the proverbial labour of love to build in terms of both time and money. In the middle is maybe the Flushing. Lots of nice planks to fit but still a more straight forward and versatile hull shape. Of the lot that's probably the one I'd want.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    That boat you picked up looks a lot like a Bolger Gypsy. I'd suggest you spend some time on the water to get a real feel for how much more boat you need for the bigger lakes and the grandkids. I think you'll find that it's a good step more, not just a little bit more, both in beam and length. I would also suggest staying away from deep keeled, heavily ballasted boats, though. The beauty of these open boats is that you can beach them and get them on and off the trailer easily. This leads to more frequent use.

    Some boats are available in pre-cut kits, which saves lots of time and removes the concern about sourcing decent ply. I'm going that route for my next boat.
    -Dave

  12. #12
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    I'm confused, or my idea of the CO river is not what it seems..I keep thinking drift boats

    You want something around 18ft, sail and electric...for river sailing, then mention big lakes.

    18ft is not a large boat by any means.

    Yes!!! on Marine plywood Or.. what lumber is native to your area?

    "tender" to the uninitiated or new to sailing is a common statement. No disrespect to you but we have no idea what kind of sailing experience you have.

    I don't subscribe to the "small boat learn to sail" malarkey, and sailing an open boat on open water will guarantee that you will be swimming someday.

    There is a reason most sailboats have cabins and drains in the cockpit

    fishing on a sailboat can be difficult if actually sailing.

    suggestion; get out on some 22 ft or larger sailboats.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  13. #13
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Denise.
    I thinking about lakes Mead,Powell,and Havasu and I have little to no sailing experience in the last 40 years,but grew up on the water using all nature of craft.
    My fishing plans consist of being able to troll under sail as well as exploit the many coves on these lakes using the electric motor, I want to avoid internal combustion and it's noise,fumes and vibration at all costs.
    The boat i have now i picked up from the gentleman that built it for ~$.40 on the dollar of his cost of materials as something that the grand kids and i cal play with on the very small lakes near Prescott,AZ. but i would like to be able to explore the larger lakes near us for extended trips.
    I know just enough about sailing to know that I'm basically clueless and the water temp locally is still in the lower 40's upper 30's so i have been very conservative in what I'm doing so my interpretation of my boats stability is at best a guess, i have been out a few times in light yet gusty winds and it has been a mix between quit relaxing and OH $#!+ in the span a a couple of minuets.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    those are ocean like lakes..you could go with a glass boat while building.. then sell the glass boat for what you paid for it.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    those are ocean like lakes..you could go with a glass boat while building.. then sell the glass boat for what you paid for it.
    That thought has crossed my mind good deals come up often on boats that are in slips on all three lakes.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Welcome aboard, Steve. I assume you'll be sailing on Lake Mead and I have to admit to considerable ignorance of the prevalent wind conditions down there. Whichever design you adopt should reflect in some extent what you'll see seasonally down there. If winds tend to be light and variable, I might go for the lighter Welsford design. If they're strong and consistent the heavier boats might provide some comfort. Will you need to be able to beach the boat? I see pics of the Lake down there with cliffs dropping straight into the water, but have never seen pics of the camping areas. A deeper draft boat may not be able to approach a camping beach. I also like the )non-traditional) end plate on the Pilgrim. I've heard the lakes down there are actually swimmable (I'm in the Pacific NW & the water tends to be on the chilly side) and I love the idea of being able to climb back aboard easily after a dip

  17. #17
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Welcome aboard, Steve. I assume you'll be sailing on Lake Mead and I have to admit to considerable ignorance of the prevalent wind conditions down there. Whichever design you adopt should reflect in some extent what you'll see seasonally down there. If winds tend to be light and variable, I might go for the lighter Welsford design. If they're strong and consistent the heavier boats might provide some comfort. Will you need to be able to beach the boat? I see pics of the Lake down there with cliffs dropping straight into the water, but have never seen pics of the camping areas. A deeper draft boat may not be able to approach a camping beach. I also like the )non-traditional) end plate on the Pilgrim. I've heard the lakes down there are actually swimmable (I'm in the Pacific NW & the water tends to be on the chilly side) and I love the idea of being able to climb back aboard easily after a dip
    According to www.windfinder.com looks like 6-10 mph is the average but due to the terrain that varies greatly depending on where you are and being in the Southwest there can be erratic with strong gusts.
    I "think" for my needs sea worthiness/stability would trump speed,I need to go fast enough to troll as I will not be in a rush to get where I'm going

  18. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    According to www.windfinder.com looks like 6-10 mph is the average but due to the terrain that varies greatly depending on where you are and being in the Southwest there can be erratic with strong gusts.
    I "think" for my needs sea worthiness/stability would trump speed,I need to go fast enough to troll as I will not be in a rush to get where I'm going
    Well, I looked at quite a few videos on Lake Mead sailing most of the boats had reefed mains... Clearly there are much larger boats sailing those Waters
    https://youtu.be/E3gN94oFXLU
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  19. #19
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Well, I looked at quite a few videos on Lake Mead sailing most of the boats had reefed mains... Clearly there are much larger boats sailing those Waters
    https://youtu.be/E3gN94oFXLU
    The desert can be quite fickle and the thunder storms unbelievably fierce,the monsoon season here lasts from June through September and it can go from 5mph out of the north to 30 mph then change to coming out on the south then drop back down to 2mph and dump 2" of rain all in the span of a half-hour...........Thanks for bringing this up,more food for thought

    I grew up in Redondo Beach CA. and our stomping grounds were the coastal waters there out to Catalina and the Channel Islands and now that you have me thinking about it lake mead could be MUCH more challenging and unpredictable than what I'm familiar with, at least in So.Cal. there was a predictable rhythm to things as well as lots of room to maneuver..............
    Last edited by eggman918; 03-12-2018 at 01:01 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    The desert can be quite fickle and the thunder storms unbelievably fierce,the monsoon season here lasts from June through September and it can go from 5mph out of the north to 30 mph then change to coming out on the south then drop back down to 2mph and dump 2" of rain all in the span of a half-hour...........Thanks for bringing this up,more food for thought
    I had a 30 foot O'Day on the Delaware River and maybe six or seven trips to and on the Chesapeake for about 10 years sailed single hand (preferred) most of the time even when I was with friends because they were so clueless.
    You can learn to sail in a day and spend your lifetime improving the skill !
    Big water big boats = big fun

    I'd say at least get out on a couple charters or make some friends that have larger boats to find out what you're missing out there. But of course big usually means big boat bucks, why I had to give it all up when I retired


    You could probably do okay in the 22 to 27 foot size. But it's your money and not my business how you spend it.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  21. #21
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    From a practical point of view, I am drawn to Bill Atkin's "Pokahantas" http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Pocahontas.html
    She, being a lee boarder, has several advantages. Not having a center or dagger board is one of the most saving graces for a boat to be used as you describe. The boat is free of a CB case that takes up space in the center of the boat and can cause all kinds of mischief if the board is jammed by debris, mud or pebbles! The lee boards can keep the boat on and even keel when it is beached by offering support. Although the look of the rig is appealing, along with the trailboards on the beak, other rigs could be ustalized if wanted. This jib set flying is a nice, if not practical touch and simplify the rig and setting of the headsail. The midship section affords good stability of hull form as well. Sand bags can be carried if disposable ballast is needed. Though a bit beamy, the water lines are easy. The hull form on the plan shows a set of diagonals that are fair and sweet to the eye, you have a good design to work with and a hull that should be easy to plank. I do like the design for what you plan to use your boat for! I would be happy to carve the trail boards for you should you choose this design.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 03-13-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    If you want to avoid a ballasted boat (and as pointed out above, it makes for a heavy boat that is more difficult to handle onto and off the trailer) then instead of opting for the Pilgrim which John Welsford designed for offshore use, the Pathfinder might be a better bet. Pilgrim displaces 1056 as designed, the pathfinder 485 - quite a considerable difference. I like to compare boats with bananas - you buy them by the pound! The Pilgrim ls likely to cost about twice what the Pathfinder will cost - something to bear in mind or which may influence your choice.

    A good thread on the performance of the Pathfinder is here:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ght=Pathfinder

    The light air performance might give a more satisfying experience from the description of the likely weather conditions in your area and as you can see from the write up, the heavy weather performance is good too. Plenty of photographs to give you an idea of the available space which I find helps a bit more than trying to visualise the boat from on line plans.

    But ultimately, you choose a boat based on what your heart tells you, not your head and this is important to keep the enthusiasm up during a build. Good luck!

  23. #23
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    After this threads input and much research I think that reason has won out over emotion, I'm leaning towards a preliminary build of a dory in the 18' range with a loose footed sprit rig and a jib with a steel or weighted center board. I'm thinking this type of construction but larger http://www.vintageprojects.com/boats...ory-plans.html the construction method uses what I would likely use for the larger boats I want as well as a slightly more complicated sail plan to master.
    I have ordered some reference material and other suggestions are welcome .....
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clinker-Boa...s=john+leather
    https://www.amazon.com/Clinker-Plywo...der_0937822612
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...A55XEQ2EEFGIHP
    https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Banks-P.../dp/1533013616
    https://www.amazon.com/Working-Guide.../dp/1891369679

    This will give me a chance to make some chips and mistakes and learn from them on a fairly simple build that still has most of the operations I would need for a larger more complex build.
    This will also get me on the water faster with less out of pocket.
    I know that this is a very different boat than what was on my initial list but it is a traditional work boat and was the first thing I considered building almost a decade ago when I first thought about building a boat.
    I still want to include an electric motor for an auxiliary drive and am thinking about a pair of sealed AGM batteries mounted on the center line one for and aft of the centerboard trunk............
    What say Y'All??
    Thanks,
    Steve.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    I has been common to install a motor well in a Banks dory to accept a small outboard. You could easily do this with a larger electric trolling motor. The pic below is of a Banks dory with motor well built by the Dory Shop in Lunenburg.



    I would keep the batteries as close to the motor as possible (recognizing the need for proper trim of the boat) to keep cable lengths to a minimum to prevent voltage drop. In the dory shown, a good place for batteries would be under the thwart that the guy in orange is straddling. The mast for the sailing rig would go where the young lady is sitting, and the centreboard trunk would be between the two visible thwarts.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Great choice! I like the idea of prioritizing getting out on the water as quickly as possible. One thing i point out to new sailors is to keep in mind that what they have is their (usually) first boat. This is the boat that will teach them what they really want in a boat. The dory configuration is stable, high load carrying and quick and easy to build. There are tons of plans out there from traditional plank on frame to stitch and glue boats.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Just keep in mind that an 18' dory compares in stability characteristics with a somewhat smaller boats of most other types. It's best to make the comparisons by waterline length and waterline beam. Look at it this way, and you'll see that the traditional 18' dory is barely larger than the 15' boat you already have. I think the dory route is a good one to take, but an 18' model might disappoint once you get it out on the water. And again, perhaps not.

    You may find this CLC dory interesting. It's pretty close to what you're describing now, right down to the motor well:https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/...ster-dory.html
    -Dave

  27. #27
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Just keep in mind that an 18' dory compares in stability characteristics with a somewhat smaller boats of most other types. It's best to make the comparisons by waterline length and waterline beam. Look at it this way, and you'll see that the traditional 18' dory is barely larger than the 15' boat you already have. I think the dory route is a good one to take, but an 18' model might disappoint once you get it out on the water. And again, perhaps not.

    You may find this CLC dory interesting. It's pretty close to what you're describing now, right down to the motor well:https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/...ster-dory.html
    From some of the sketches I have done I was thinking about the bottom being 48" at it's widest and 15' long with ~ 125# of batteries and a centerboard weight of ~ 100#, am i correct in thinking that this would help with initial stability as it would increase the draft or am I not in the ballpark weight wise or not thinking about this correctly?
    Again I'm new to engineering in this field but not to engineering in general,but I could be making flawed assumptions and if so point out where i'm off as I am eager to learn....

  28. #28
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    My current boat is quite narrow on the bottom as well as ~250# empty.......
    When the water warms up here I plan to take it out and see how it acts with some inclination trials but the water temp is around 40* right now so ending up in the drink is not appealing right now.
    Last edited by eggman918; 03-14-2018 at 02:50 PM.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    I recently acquired a stitch & glue 15' "dory" that is ideal for the small lakes near my home that i can use to brush up my skills on as I haven't sailed since I was a kid some 4 decades ago.
    It is a fun little boat and it's light weight construction makes it quick and easy to get in and out of the water by myself, but it seems to me to be a very fragile little boat that could just be my perception but i will treat it as such in case I'm correct.
    The detail of the leeboard identifies your skiff as one of Jim Michalak's designs. The length you give, and the interior arrangement make it, most likely the Mayfly.

    Jim's been at this small boat design thing pretty seriously for quite a while now. His boats are pretty well worked out, and have a reputation. If the boat was built well, you shouldn't have any worries about her durability.

    All the best with your quest for something more challenging!

  30. #30
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Thanks for the heads up Chris you are correct about Jim Michalak but in looking at his designs it's the wooboto

  31. #31
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    My current boat is quite narrow on the bottom as well as ~250# empty.......
    When the water warms up here I plan to take it out and see how it acts with some inclination trials but the water temp is around 40* right now so ending up in the drink is not appealing right now.

    That's your best plan. Be aware that boats of that shape are initially tender but have a lot of reserve stability. In other words, it will heel over a few degrees very easily, and then stiffen up quite a bit. Some don't mind that feel, but it can make others very nervous.
    -Dave

  32. #32
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    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Eggman918, I worked on a sail / electric / kicker design for myself a few year ago. It is an interesting concept with many conflicting requirements. I am not sure what is optimal for your requirements, but from what you have stated I have the following suggestions:

    1. The boat should be easy to launch, retrieve, and trailer. So the bow should be raked with a well-rounded forefoot, and permanent ballast should be kept to a minimum.

    2. The topsides should be near plumb aft, and sole should be unobstructed with no side benches.

    3. Sailing rig would be a Cat Rig well forward.

    4. Electric trolling motor would be mounted on the bow, and gas outboard would be mounted on the transom.

    This arrangement would allow you to fish effectively, go where you need to go at speed under most conditions, and make trailering the boat as easy as possible. I am thinking something like a Core Sound 20 with a cat rig.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Decatur, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up Chris you are correct about Jim Michalak but in looking at his designs it's the wooboto
    Excellent!

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,894

    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs

    I owned a Banks Dory once and have commented on it in other posts. I had it rigged up for minimum cruising for two. While it was great to row,
    it went nowhere under sail! I would not choose to use a dory for purposes other than fishing and rowing. The more fish you have aboard, the more stable its tippy hull form becomes and the worse it sails and rows!
    Jay

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    upstate ny- thats north of the catskills
    Posts
    631

    Default Re: thoughts on what to build for my needs


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