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Thread: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

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    Default Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat


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    I like the hull, looks like a lot boat packed into a small package.

    My worry would be sail handling especially the sprit, standing on the coach roof looks a tad precarious. Just for aesthetics the daggerboards could be moved inboard and then possible toed outboard.


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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    I think the bilgeboard at the lee side should not have balast

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Better to put the ballast under the boat in way of a shoe, and have lighter boards. If you need ballasted keels, get a bilge/twin keeler. Sven Yrvind looked at ballasted lifting leeboards for his latest boat, and gave up on the idea. Im still wondering why he gave up on an external leeboard and lost internal room for a drop board.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Pardon the thread drift but I'm curious about the 'ecopoxy' advertised on the sail. Anyone ever use it? http://www.ecopoxy.com/
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    All sailhandling from cockpit. The keels are not on the best place for upwind. So upvind sailing is with mainsail only. No bowsprit. Forestay 1m back to free the bow to ease the sailhandling. The boat is designed for tradewind sailing. Therefore the proper bulb keels. They will be bolted, but able to release and hoist. 80kg. For protected areas I could do different. I follow Yrvind, he is not concerned about stability on his boats, he make them waterproof instead, staying inside all the time. Inside ballast is not stable enough. Please read the blogsite, there are some discussion there. I already have a boat, Krill2, but like something more oceangoing and trailerable.
    https://paradis-2.blogspot.no/2017/0...september.html

    DSC_1642.JPG

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    I had difficulty translating from the front page so used google translate

    https://paradis-2.blogspot.be/2018/0...-bat-selv.html

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Pardon the thread drift but I'm curious about the 'ecopoxy' advertised on the sail. Anyone ever use it? http://www.ecopoxy.com/
    I have used it and so has another builder I talked to here in Newfoundland. It must have really high amine blush, because when filling the weave of fiberglass I couldn't get the final coat on before it cured, and the epoxy failed to adhere to itself well even after I thought I had washed it thoroughly. There were little pinholes at the surface and it actually felt slimy before I washed it. The other builder had identical problems, so it wasn't just my technique.

    I switched to Exp System epoxy after that and had no more problems. Both Ecopoxy and Exp System had a lot less VOC than the ColdCure epoxy I had used before.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by BOI View Post
    I have used it and so has another builder I talked to here in Newfoundland. It must have really high amine blush, because when filling the weave of fiberglass I couldn't get the final coat on before it cured, and the epoxy failed to adhere to itself well even after I thought I had washed it thoroughly. There were little pinholes at the surface and it actually felt slimy before I washed it. The other builder had identical problems, so it wasn't just my technique.

    I switched to Exp System epoxy after that and had no more problems. Both Ecopoxy and Exp System had a lot less VOC than the ColdCure epoxy I had used before.
    Thanks for that. Think I'll stick to System Three.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Sprit i in conflict with lower stay
    transom is below watersurface

    how do you handle the sprit when reefing?
    how do you handle the keels when they are bolted off?

    Cool boat!
    Ragnar B.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I like the hull, looks like a lot boat packed into a small package.

    My worry would be sail handling especially the sprit, standing on the coach roof looks a tad precarious. Just for aesthetics the daggerboards could be moved inboard and then possible toed outboard.


    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa
    --- I love this boat too. It has the tech and the classic good looks combined. I wonder if those boards function hydrodynamically more as dagger boards than leeboards? Enough of a an end-plate effect to classify as daggers? -- Wade

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    What CAD package are you using, Delftship is free, give you all sorts of useful information and allow you to really develop the design. You can the very easily unfold the ‘planks’ and it is relatively easy to use.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    The translate button does not seem to work on that page? Anyway, i see you are aware of Setka A already, why not build one of those? I have the plans myself.....you wanna race me across Atlantic?

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    The translate button does not seem to work on that page? Anyway, i see you are aware of Setka A already, why not build one of those? I have the plans myself.....you wanna race me across Atlantic?
    Me also re translation - see post #7

    https://paradis-2.blogspot.be/2018/0...-bat-selv.html

    Helge explains in transaltion his whys

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    It does not come translated Tink.

    Ok i did one paragrapgh at a time with a translator.

    Im not sure about the twin ballasted boards though. The reinforcement needed in both sides of the hull will be substantial. Internal or shoe ballast should work with your raised deck to self right, or did you calculate otherwise? Is that what you mean by not stable?
    I have the same issue with Setka regarding trailing with the bulb fin keel. The centrboard version is not allowed to take part, and a version with a ballasted drop dagger foil (my option), is outside of class rules.
    Its a tricky thing to achieve, trailability and ocean going in one package.
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 03-08-2018 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    It does not come translated Tink.
    Try this

    https://translate.google.com/transla...-bat-selv.html

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    ^ That one worked! Thanks.

    Does the mast really need all that support? I think i came to the conclusion, on a boat this size, i would most likely opt for a lug or junk,a big one, that can be easily balanced down wind and easily reefed. I would like the option of a small jib sail though for upwind. Hard to drive a small boat in heavy weather unless some weight behind it. Hurley 18 is a cracking boat in snotty weather, but too slow downwind compared to modern stuff, and not an easy launch from a trailer.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Is there any reason for the apparent desire to cram a lot into a short LOA?

    How will she handle with such asymmetric fore-and-aft sections and such great beam?

    The very tight angle on the chines could lead to problematic handling and drag, couldn't it?

    The translation I get says "the experts do not make strong or smart boats" which seems to be rather damning; I hope it's a translation error.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    The more i look at the concept the more I like it, It could have come of the page of Bolger. The point is it is your design meeting your design requirements. Trailer sailer, proper double bed, minimal openings etc

    I can understand why you say ‘experts don’t make strong of smart boats’. Your requirements far off the marketing departments radar - in a 5m boat they want 4 berths and separate heads and a roomy cockpit so to fit it in lets make beds impossible to sleep in. Next come the accountants must hit a certain price point and the laminate becomes thinner and other cost savings are found. The the journalist review it and must say it is fantastic because they need to sell advertising space. Suddenly we have ‘yacht of the year’ and everyone is happy. Oh no not quite you can’t find the boat you want.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Producers need to recoup development and tooling costs, so boats they build have to have a "main stream demand", which is usally standing headroom, seperate heads/shower and 6 berths with a double berth cabin crammed under the cockpit, in a 24ft boat.....which are generally built down to a price, but are generally built well enough to survive the marina hopping or short coastal cruises that the majority buy them for, that is mainstream yachting for most people and that is what the magazines are mostly full of. Im wondering how many Krill yachts were made. Much like the excellent Souricou , nice concept, but how many actually got built?

    One of the issues i have in a boat this small is seperating a dry and wet area.I made a "zip-in" dacron bulkhead to allow me to take off wet foul weather gear, or sit with access to cockpit with main hatch open, while keeping the sleeping/navigation compartment dry. Damp sleeping bags and soggy charts are not good.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    I am well aware of how the commercial world works. I have project / design managed numerous successful multinational consumer products launches with budgets over 1M. The point is Helge has tried commercial craft for 17 years and with his experience and his precise requirements he thinks he can do better.

    Surely this forum is for people that don’t conform to the typical boat user and want to experiment with their own ideas.

    Leeboards and dual dagger boards free up the accommodation and have been tried on main stream craft but without any real success. This is not because they are a bad idea but that the average man forms his options based on the views of journalists who only define performance as speed and VMG.

    If you read the mainstream media you would believe that everything is on hydrofoils now, never seen a hydrofoil boat in action, wouldn’t work where I sail, don’t know anyone who who buy one.

    Yes I am very off topic but we should be helping Helge not telling him to buy something else and stop his design work.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Yes, that is how is is. And when they make small boats, they have to have the apperance (look a like) as a big boat. And the stuff them with a sink, kitchen, heads. A small boat is like a big sleeping bag. To get in and out should be easy, and inside, noe hard corners, nothing sticking out.
    I have some experience and like to use it. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...helge+stokstad

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Is there any reason for the apparent desire to cram a lot into a short LOA?
    It fit my garage - building space. And 5x2m gives easy trailing. You do not need any special car or extra mirrors. The 5m sits low on the trailer and it is easy to climb onboard for camping un the hard. And the mast!! microclass (5,5mx2,45m) has just a bit to heavy mast. The Krill mast is 6m, and that is just fine.


    How will she handle with such asymmetric fore-and-aft sections and such great beam?
    I really do not know, thats why I seek som second opinon. I will make a 1:10 model and test it. But it cannot be worse than the Gary Mull Microsail.

    The very tight angle on the chines could lead to problematic handling and drag, couldn't it?
    Yes, but in a small boat, you can compensate with moving yourself and baggage forward, to lift the transom when going upwind. This boat is designet for downwind, upwind it have to be sailed more like a windsurfer. Sailsenter pulled aft. The hard chines is needed for tracking upwind. Downwind it should have som planing possibillities. But heavy weight always makes planing difficult. If the boat has a blunt shape, you can compensate to a certain degree with more sail area. You get 5,5kn upwind, not more, and then it pushes through the waves. It gives a longitudinal rocking in the boat, not comfortable. A small boat have to be sailed with less speed, so it can more swim along, not beeing pushed hard. But downwind I like have the possibility to surf and push with a masthead assy spi.

    The translation I get says "the experts do not make strong or smart boats" which seems to be rather damning; I hope it's a translation error.
    Reply baked in I hope.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    It does not come translated Tink.

    Ok i did one paragrapgh at a time with a translator.

    Im not sure about the twin ballasted boards though. The reinforcement needed in both sides of the hull will be substantial. Internal or shoe ballast should work with your raised deck to self right, or did you calculate otherwise? Is that what you mean by not stable?
    I have the same issue with Setka regarding trailing with the bulb fin keel. The centrboard version is not allowed to take part, and a version with a ballasted drop dagger foil (my option), is outside of class rules.
    Its a tricky thing to achieve, trailability and ocean going in one package.
    After the 2012 event, same year, 20 builders planned to take part in the 2016 event. In the 2020 event, only one boat, Nerwus, is on the list, and now we are in 2018. You can make a boat in a winter, but it will be full of things that should be tested and improved. Janusz Maderski have made a very solid boat, I have mailed with him, but it is not specially designed for trailing. The keel needs two men to handle for mounting, the mast likewise.(25kg). The mast does not fit in a 20ft. container. It is 7m. He has designet the Setka A to sail the Atlantic, thats it. In the 2016 event, some boats were not approved to start. They started anyway, but only one of them boat made it all the way to Martinique. He also sailed back. It is not a serious regatta, more a friendship kind a thing, no fees, no first price. All participants are winners (JM). I have one set of plans and the licence to build one boat. But with afteruse in mind, I would like to incorporate some things.
    1.Inspection of keels from the boat, removing debrish, seagrass.
    2. Beeing able to build and rebuild keels anywhere with hand tools, fiberglass and epoxy.
    3. Raise and lower mast at sea to repair, put up new halyards etc.
    4. Detach and raise the keels myself, to get to shore for repair or just land in a beautiful spot. The keels should not be to heavy, the mainsail halyard or mainsail sheet on the bom should be able to lift 100kg. If the keelbolts should leak, they are over the waterline level.

    There are some advantages with this design, good space inside. I can give the keels a proper NACA profile. The Setka has a 12mm steelplate, welded to a 5mm plate. It will vibrate, humm. It will also be more prone to cavitating upwind.
    Cons are maybe weight to far aft, bad upwind performace. Cramped headroom. (have to reinforce sides to accomodate keels).

    The Setka with drop ballasted daggerboard moves in the slot(JM) and makes noises. Scary.
    Internal ballast, tried it in a microclass Ricochet 550. We almost capsized out there in the ocean, the boat recovered very slowly, very scary experience. The Krill is superb and stable. But I wil not trust 2cm oak fin with 125kg led bolted on, at a long distance voyage. It is 5cm in general, but made narrow in the attachment.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by mizzenman View Post
    Sprit i in conflict with lower stay
    transom is below watersurface

    how do you handle the sprit when reefing?
    how do you handle the keels when they are bolted off?

    Cool boat!
    Sprit is not accurate in the drawing, it have to be attached abowe the lower stays. With a stiff mast, lower stays are not needed (Setka A). I have lower stays on the Krill. It is much needed, soft mast.
    Reefiing and sprit: Fast temperairy reefing, lower the sprit, you reduce the sailarea much in the upper part. For a small reef, you lower the sprit. For a big reef, its better to tie in the lower end of the sprit closer to the mast, to keep the same angle of attack. Here are som picts. https://paradis-2.blogspot.no/2013/0...er-na-bra.html
    Eack keel will have the weight of max 100kg. I plan one winch on the cabin roof and the use of the mainsail halyard. There will bee a system for locking them in a raised position. I will also be able to remove them completly from the boat, for repair or more easy boat handling.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Im wondering if your two ballasted keels sort of cancel each other out? At 90 degrees they both in a position to force the hull down (hopefully) to recover, but due to being at the extreme beam unlike most ballasted twin keelers, im wondering how effective it is. Is there room to bring them inboard into the chine panel, so that they clear the bottom for beaching. Paul fisher had some twin daggerboards on a 14ft boat, something similar might work?



    Thats the Lynx 14. http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm#LYN

    I didnt realise that the boards are actually weighted, and its a planing type hull (he says) .

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    I agree with the Setka welded steel set up. I would sheath it with foam or ply just to put a foil section on it. The idea of having to bolt a keel on and off is off putting, and i dont like paying for cranes, or go where cranes are in order to go sailing. My friend was close to buying Atom when it was shipped back, but decided to give me the option to build a new one. I dont think with modern engineering there is any reason for a good lifting foil to bang in its casing.
    I have had enough issues with a sprit to not want it anymore, except maybe as a boom. Gunter, like Selway dinghy above, is a good compromise in short mast and getting sail up where the wind blows. So many trade offs.....

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Post 16 has a google translate link which works

    The post from 17th Jan puts the design in context

    https://translate.google.com/transla...-bat-selv.html

    Helge wants to take part in a Rally across the Atlantic organised by some Polish guys. Boats must be self built, within a budget, 5m Max LOA and max weight 800kg. Communications / Radios are not alllowed - bit like the old one - good fishermen can’t swim so they never do anything risky. You have to trust your boat 200% because you can’t call for help.

    Anyway if you read between the lines of google translate it all makes sense and I for one wish Helge the very best in his venture

  29. #29
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    Default

    Just as an aside this is the link to google translate

    https://translate.google.com/transla...2F03&sandbox=1

    You just paste in any web site page and select the language




    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Helge wants to take part in a Rally across the Atlantic organised by some Polish guys. Boats must be self built, within a budget, 5m Max LOA and max weight 800kg. Communications / Radios are not alllowed - bit like the old one - good fishermen can’t swim so they never do anything risky. You have to trust your boat 200% because you can’t call for help.

    Anyway if you read between the lines of google translate it all makes sense and I for one wish Helge the very best in his venture
    Im familiar with it, my friend Olek took part, and another friend wants me to go with her as a double handed crew in some future race. If they have opened up to other boats other than Setka, im still interested! I have always been an advocate of self reliance, and have never carried a liferaft, any small boat should BE the liferaft. Look forward to seeing how Helge moves forward, and if i question anything, its because there is very little room for error out there......

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Atom was sold for 43000E
    Igus was sold for 33000E
    Still Crazy was sold for ?? 26000E??

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Helge, did you actually want a boat that will plane? I know Atom recorded a top speed of 15.8 knots while surfing, it can be fun, but also a bit of a drain when trying to relax in big seas, so needs either an excellent windvane/autopilot, or putting out a drougue to slow down. Anotehr Selway design you have probably seen. 500kg. The keel shoe is a bit of a hinderance for super easy launching, but its one i would consider, plenty of room for a double bunk.




    I was offered Atom on arrival in Gdasnk, without all the electronics for less than 5,000 Euro.

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat


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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Looking forward to seeing how your model develops

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    Default Re: Twin bulb keel 5m trailerboat

    Cool, scale model. Look forward to the testing of that. There is a Setka A in the Canaries ready to go for 5000 Euros. I would hope being only 5m long his storage rates are quite low.......too many charge a minimum of 8m.

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