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Thread: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

  1. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Sorry, the textbook definition of socialism is not limited to the simplistic/cartoon version you want to insist upon. You say you are attempting to 'wrap your mind around' the term 'market socialism'. Until you do, you will be stuck in that simplistic world that has little to do with our modern economic choices. If examples would help, check out policies in the Scandinavian countries. They are further down the spectrum toward socialism. Market socialism, that is.

    In case it's never been made clear to you - people 'sincerely' interested in exploring a topic don't cherry-pick tidbits that misrepresent the thrust of an article. As you did in your first paragraph. Here's a fuller rendering --



    I'm perfectly happy with that textbook definition of pure socialism - with incorporates both non-market and market socialism.

    But you still haven't said you understand the spectrum aspect. You keep trying to say that I'm advocating for pure socialism. I'm not. Can you hear that? I'm not.

    Few or none are advocating for pure socialism, or pure capitalism. I've said that multiple times now. That is what the quotes around the word socialism in the title allude to. That it's a spectrum. You appear to still be stuck in black/white, socialist banner territory. Don't know how we can move forward until you get unstuck.
    David, I have not nice said you are advocating pure socialism

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So we need to get rid of that. Fine. Now, back to subsidies for renewables. How much should we have since it is not enough in your mind? What should the subsidy be on solar or wind power per kilowatt? What should the subsidy be if I buy an electric car?
    How much can be decided by the political process. Itís not like govít support for industry is something new. Local govtís provide tax incentives for new businesses that will hopefully contribute to the economy. Of the various industries govít supports Iíd say creating a more resilient energy grid with non-fossil sources should rate up there with subsidizing arms sales to autocratic regimes. Promoting the general welfare looks more likely supporting new technologies and energy infrastructure than promoting arms sales.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    David, I have not nice said you are advocating pure socialism

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    Ahhh... but you have. Because you say I advocate socialism. Which is true (kinda, mostly)

    But you have yet to admit the possibility of gradients in that direction. Until you acknowledge that truth... and while you insist on a black/white definition... by saying I advocate socialism, you are saying I advocate pure socialism.

    Or are you now backhandedly and belatedly admitting that you perceive that it's a spectrum?
    Last edited by David G; 03-07-2018 at 02:58 PM.
    David G
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    call it a spectrum. maybe no one will notice you're trying to get to the end of the spectrum

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    call it a spectrum. maybe no one will notice you're trying to get to the end of the spectrum
    People will definitely notice your assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    How much can be decided by the political process. It’s not like gov’t support for industry is something new. Local govt’s provide tax incentives for new businesses that will hopefully contribute to the economy. Of the various industries gov’t supports I’d say creating a more resilient energy grid with non-fossil sources should rate up there with subsidizing arms sales to autocratic regimes. Promoting the general welfare looks more likely supporting new technologies and energy infrastructure than promoting arms sales.
    So, how should the political process decide? What criteria? Is it some form of "we don't have enough renewable energy now, so we need to increase the subsidy?".
    The problem with just saying, as Paul said, we need to subsidize green energy, is there seems to be an implicit statement that we are not subsidizing them now.
    A per car subsidy of 7500 is fairly significant, yet Paul says it's just BS. If the idea is to discuss policies, some clarity certainly would be helpful.
    That's my overall point on this thread, as can be seen from my very first post.


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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, how should the political process decide? What criteria? Is it some form of "we don't have enough renewable energy now, so we need to increase the subsidy?".
    The problem with just saying, as Paul said, we need to subsidize green energy, is there seems to be an implicit statement that we are not subsidizing them now.
    A per car subsidy of 7500 is fairly significant, yet Paul says it's just BS. If the idea is to discuss policies, some clarity certainly would be helpful.
    That's my overall point on this thread, as can be seen from my very first post.


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    that whole sausage making enterprise is what gov’t does, we “let it” all the time. As far as criteria I’d take it case by case. The gov’t encouraged the sale of light trucks/ SUVs for over thirty years which pretty much committed the country to unnecessary oil consumption and pollution. Maybe it’s time to encourage something else that reduces dependency on oil a little bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    that whole sausage making enterprise is what gov’t does, we “let it” all the time. As far as criteria I’d take it case by case. The gov’t encouraged the sale of light trucks/ SUVs for over thirty years which pretty much committed the country to unnecessary oil consumption and pollution. Maybe it’s time to encourage something else that reduces dependency on oil a little bit.
    Of course that's what government does. That's what it has done. What are the criteria for judging government's actions? Or are you saying, the government has decided the level of subsidies for green energy, so we are past that issue? I know you are not saying that. So in your mind, the sausage making has failed or has been insufficient. We are back to: what is sufficient.

    BTW, if the answer is simply, get rid of SUV and truck and oil and gas subsidies, I agree. But that was not on Paul's original list if socialist policies.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I support a single payer healthcare system. Putting it under the banner of socialism would be quite counter productive.
    What would you like to see as an ideal national health policy outcome? What economic model do you think best supports such an outcome?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What would you like to see as an ideal national health policy outcome? What economic model do you think best supports such an outcome?
    The one we have here in OZ.

    Its not perfect , but light years ahead of the US.
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What would you like to see as an ideal national health policy outcome? What economic model do you think best supports such an outcome?
    What economic model? I somewhere on that spectrum I suppose.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Peb has a point. A substantial fraction of the US is allergic to anything called 'socialism', even if they support the policies. Call it something else and make it easier to sell.

    And then we get Alan, who appears to think that we really want to move to something like the Soviet Union in 1954.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Peb has a point. A substantial fraction of the US is allergic to anything called 'socialism', even if they support the policies. Call it something else and make it easier to sell.

    And then we get Alan, who appears to think that we really want to move to something like the Soviet Union in 1954.


    watch it keith, you're not allowed to assume i can think at all... just ask the rest of the jackboots in here.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, how should the political process decide? What criteria? Is it some form of "we don't have enough renewable energy now, so we need to increase the subsidy?".
    The problem with just saying, as Paul said, we need to subsidize green energy, is there seems to be an implicit statement that we are not subsidizing them now.
    A per car subsidy of 7500 is fairly significant, yet Paul says it's just BS. If the idea is to discuss policies, some clarity certainly would be helpful.
    That's my overall point on this thread, as can be seen from my very first post.


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    Balancing constituents and lobbyists desires with long term general welfare isn’t something you can define in specific amount of subsidization. If society and our representatives value something they’ll invest in it. For the most part we support large industries and consumption. I see no problem with not subsidizing electric vehicles if we did the same across the board like the schedule 179deduction for 6000+ lb vehicles.
    Btw there isn’t anything called green energy. Energy is energy.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    OK... let me guess. NOW delecta is mad about being left off my Xmas Fruitcake list?
    I don't get any fruitcake, what did I ever do to you?
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I don't get any fruitcake, what did I ever do to you?
    Not a thing... but I'm WATCHIN' you, buddy!!

    OK, seriously, I think quite highly of you. And on the fruitcake thing... count your blessings <G>
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Peb has a point. A substantial fraction of the US is allergic to anything called 'socialism', even if they support the policies. Call it something else and make it easier to sell.

    And then we get Alan, who appears to think that we really want to move to something like the Soviet Union in 1954.
    Peb has simmered too long in the propaganda of the Cold War years.

    He wanted to understand what a shift toward socialism meant/looked like. Maybe he understands more now.

    But if you want to get into the politics and pr... then you're both right. Far too many people react irrationally and negatively to the term. So selling it will require not only re-naming it, but also fending off attempts by the Right to label it correctly... or, more likely, relabel it falsely in related but even MORE incendiary manner.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Not a thing... but I'm WATCHIN' you, buddy!!

    OK, seriously, I think quite highly of you. And on the fruitcake thing... count your blessings <G>
    It would have been the thought that would have counted had I gotten the damn fruitcake . . . .
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    Never mind, thought better of it. Will reply later
    Last edited by peb; 03-07-2018 at 07:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Sanctimonious pr$_k

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    Truth hurts?
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Earl Warren -
    Many people consider the things government does for them to be social progress but they regard the things government does for others as socialism.
    not all that different from "I got mine, $&$-# you".

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Never mind, thought better of it. Will reply later
    Is it later yet?
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    I think what are looking for is...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

    Basically a system that uses capitalism to benefit everyone and not just the top 1%.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wet Feet View Post
    The one we have here in OZ.

    Its not perfect , but light years ahead of the US.
    I'll second that.There are a couple of Facebook pages I frequent concerning brain cancers. One British, the other Australian. There is lots of talk of symptoms and treatments but no discussion of money or bills .... ever. Both the UK and Australia ( and most civilised countries) have state funded health care so it is not an issue.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    In my mind, the ideal socialist society would derive from the fact that we've found ways for robots to do all the labour. Most people would just get benefits from the government to survive on. Those who felt they needed or wanted more would be the entrepreneurs who went out and did something over and above. They would run the companies. If you didn't want to put any effort into life, you'd just get your measly income from the government but we wouldn't be short on labour because most of it would be done by machines.
    It's a work in progress, not entirely thought through yet. Nor likely to ever be for that matter.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    What should the subsidy be on solar or wind power per kilowatt? What should the subsidy be if I buy an electric car?
    Considering the imperative to combat global warming and the urgent need to switch to renewables; the subsidy should be enough to achieve that switch in a timely fashion.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    One thing i did enjoy in the OP link was seeing an American using the word 'Liberal' correctly - some of the time.

    As for the rest - its a no brainer. Governments should look after society, business can look after business. Governments are crap at business and business is crap at society. Governments should only run businesses when business doing it is deleterious to society (health/education/public policy). Business should never do society at any point.


    Americans appear to be isolated, viciously competitive, suspicious of one another and spiritually shallow; and that we are anxiously looking for some kind of attachment to something real and profound in an age of decreasing trust and regard — seem to be emblematic of capitalism, which encourages and requires fierce individualism, self-interested disregard for the other, and resentment of arrangements into which one deposits more than he or she withdraws. (As a business-savvy friend once remarked: Nobody gets rich off of bilateral transactions where everybody knows what they’re doing.) Capitalism is an ideology that is far more encompassing than it admits, and one that turns every relationship into a calculable exchange. Bodies, time, energy, creativity, love — all become commodities to be priced and sold. Alienation reigns. There is no room for sustained contemplation and little interest in public morality; everything collapses down to the level of the atomized individual.
    ouch!
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Time to shift towards socialism: and yet, the elections are moving in the opposite direction.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Time to shift towards socialism: and yet, the elections are moving in the opposite direction.
    Well, sort of... I don't consider the 2016 election to be 'moving in the opposite direction', since 1) the winner lost the popular vote, and 2) only the arcane and obsolete electoral system was responsible for the win.

    National polls (you know, the things you like to disbelieve) indicate far greater support for policies more aligned with Democrats than Republicans.... and Trump's approval rating is in the toilet.

    No, we have not 'moved in the opposite direction', at all... and quite possibly, 2018 will be a demonstration of that.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    If you didn't want to put any effort into life, you'd just get your measly income from the government . . .
    As would the children you produced with so little effort and at so little cost; and in consequence, so many of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    . . . but we wouldn't be short on labour because most of it would be done by machines.
    There hasn't been a shortage of labor since 1900. Only a shortage of cheap labor. It's like when they talk about a shortage of teachers.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Never mind, thought better of it. Will reply later
    It's been 'later' for a while now.

    You seem to be stuck.

    Are you having no luck figuring out an argument to support the black/white stance?

    Or have you come to the realization that it actually IS a continuum between laissez-faire capitalism and market socialism, but are having trouble saying that right out loud and moving on from there?
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    I think maybe Cuba is the sort of thing peb thinks of when someone says socialism. It's certainly one model... but, as configured, pretty much a dead-end --


    Reuters -- Factbox: Cuba's one-party socialist system among last in world

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/factbox-c...173547328.html
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Its kind of ironic that socialism carry's many of the hall marks of Christianity and conservative ideals, and yet conservatives are most vocal against it.

    respect for the intrinsic value of a person.
    belief in helping the poor
    educate everyone.
    equitable distribution of wealth (camels and needles and all that).
    emphasis on the family unit.
    respect for work and the belief that hard work should be rewarded.
    social responsibility for the environment, the sick, the elderly, the mentally ill......
    fact based policy


    A socialist society would be fairer and even right wing trolls would be educated.
    Everyman carries within himself a world made up of all that he has seen and loved; and it is to this world that he returns incessantly, though he may pass through, and seem to inhabit, a world quite foreign to it.
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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I think maybe Cuba is the sort of thing peb thinks of when someone says socialism. It's certainly one model... but, as configured, pretty much a dead-end --


    Reuters -- Factbox: Cuba's one-party socialist system among last in world

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/factbox-c...173547328.html
    It looks as though this is the only shaky bit according to the Op Ed
    Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR), tasked with mobilizing support for the government and defending the political system against crime and "counter-revolution."Critics say they facilitate control over the population. The CDRs have lost influence over the last decade, locals say.
    No comment about whether the rest is shaky.

    On the other hand look at what the system delivered in the face of appalling adversity.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    ^ that last, conservatives strive mightly to ignore.

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