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Thread: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

  1. #1
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    Default Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Loyal opposition is one the roots of healthy democratic institutions. And I'm no Trump supporter. I called him a narcissistic buffoon in 2016 and I'm sticking with it. And the same thing, with a different narrative, would be going on if Crooked Hillary had been elected. That said, has this gone too far?

    Years back, when I was clearing out my mother's house and readying it for sale, I came across some boyhood scribblings of my brother. He talked about his childish dreams, one of which was to be president someday. Circa 1955. Now(since Watergate perhaps?), a president is elected and the opposition, seemingly automatically, opens a Congressional hearing trying to bring them down!

    What is the impact of this, on both the people who choose to run and on the elected president's attempts to govern effectively? What does it say about 'America The Beautiful', 'WE THE PEOPLE', that our politics, always a bit of blood sport, has become a perennial investigative bloodbath? Does a 'normal' young person still dream of being president someday?

    "When the going gets weird the weird turn pro."

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    it has from the right
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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    It went too far with the Party of No and Obama.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Which congressional hearing is trying to bring Trump down?

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Sorry, I should have put congressional hearing in quotes, airborne cetacean.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    You haven't answered the question, Jack. You have strongly implied that the Democratic party has opened a Congressional hearing in order to try to bring down President Trump. Which hearing would that be?

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    It was intended as a figure of speech! Jeez. Poor word choice.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Now(since Watergate perhaps?), a president is elected and the opposition, seemingly automatically, opens a Congressional hearing trying to bring them down!
    "Figure of speech"? It's a lie, Jack. You're trying to smear Democrats with the same kind of despicable behaviour we saw from eight years of Republican opposition to Obama's administration, and you're telling lies in order to do so.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    It was intended as a figure of speech! Jeez. Poor word choice.
    a figure of speech is not the same thing as a fallacious assumption. No doubt it would be nice to have company supporting your argument but you’ll have better luck in forums where conspiracy theories are the foundation of the group as opposed to the WBF where reality based topics are popular. Try Infowars.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    "Figure of speech"? It's a lie, Jack. You're trying to smear Democrats with the same kind of despicable behaviour we saw from eight years of Republican opposition to Obama's administration, and you're telling lies in order to do so.
    “ You had very fine people on both sides”

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Jack. When Republicans prevented Obama from filling a Supreme Court vacancy on the idiotic argument that the last year of a presidents office was to be ignored what did you think?

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    i assume he'e referring to all the buffoons calling for impeachment. not that there's a real hearing on it

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i assume he'e referring to all the buffoons calling for impeachment. not that there's a real hearing on it
    yes that is an assumption but impeachment is not an investigation. Imagine Jack asked you to get milk from the store and you brought back varnish. No amount of conversation will make it palatable.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Loyal opposition is one the roots of healthy democratic institutions. And I'm no Trump supporter. I called him a narcissistic buffoon in 2016 and I'm sticking with it. And the same thing, with a different narrative, would be going on if Crooked Hillary had been elected. That said, has this gone too far?
    Considering that our entire electoral process is under assault from a foreign adversary, and we have a President who completely denies what all four major intelligence agencies have told him repeatedly... and he still acts AS IF the Russians have something significant on him, I'd say that people are reacting appropriately.

    The fact that you still use the term 'Crooked Hillary', when, in fact, no evidence has ever been produced to support the smear, indicates that you're not even close to trying to take a rational or objective perspective on the situation. We just finished 8 years with a President whose administration (regardless of your political inclinations) was essentially a 'no drama', 'no scandal' period in governance... yet his major antagonizer spent 8 years falsely smearing him with the accusation (absurd, on it's face) that he wasn't American-born...

    I'd say that Americans are acting entirely appropriately to the situation; we have a TERRIBLE President... whose approval and support, never all that strong, has declined precipitously in the past year. Nearly 50% of his West Wing appointees have either left voluntarily, or have been dismissed, with a remarkable number under indictment or suspicion.

    What do you think the people OUGHT to do, in this situation? Ignore the corruption and incompetence?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Jack is back. His assumption is indefensible so his response will default to more nostalgic musing. Mdh or SkyBlue might keep the thread alive.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    I thought that Jack posted his farewell speech a few weeks ago, indicating that he was not to be seen in these parts for the foreseeable future. Short hiatus, apparently.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    And the same thing, with a different narrative, would be going on if Crooked Hillary had been elected. That said, has this gone too far?

    Now(since Watergate perhaps?), a president is elected and the opposition, seemingly automatically, opens a Congressional hearing trying to bring them down!

    our politics, always a bit of blood sport, has become a perennial investigative bloodbath?
    Watergate, Iran Contra, Whitewater, Benghazi, Russia.

    Those investigations were not automatic. They were initiated. Try and argue their equivalency.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Loyal opposition is one the roots of healthy democratic institutions. And I'm no Trump supporter. I called him a narcissistic buffoon in 2016 and I'm sticking with it. And the same thing, with a different narrative, would be going on if Crooked Hillary had been elected. That said, has this gone too far?
    Your OP proves it has. In one breath you say you don’t support trump but in the next you use his catch phrase for Hillary Clinton. Do you really think Hillary is more crooked than trump? Really? If so you’ve bought in to the Russian ‘bots narrative bigly. And have not been paying attention at all to what’s going on in the country.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    What are "oppositional politics"?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What are "oppositional politics"?
    You know - the opposite of holding RWWs' hands and singing "Kumbaya".

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What are "oppositional politics"?
    It’s that thing over there, not the things right here in front of your face. Just remove yourself from where you are and pretend you’re over there where you aren’t. After you get validation for that look at all the other places that could be, gosh, so many choices. Remember when we were kids?

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Zounds. Now, what is "the same thing, with a different narrative"? Joe Garagiola color commenting on a dog show? That might fit the Trump Adminstration. I don't know if Hillary or anyone else could come close.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Hillary IS, as I said at the time, crooked as a barrel of snakes, and Trump IS a narcissistic buffoon. Probably crooked too!

    In an attempt at non-partisan commentary, I asked an honest question. Is this endless investigative spirit since Watergate a good spirit or a bad spirit?

    But as Michael reminds me, I tried to step away from these political donnybrooks some weeks ago, and shall try again.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    From your lips to God's ears...
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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    "Figure of speech"? It's a lie, Jack. You're trying to smear Democrats with the same kind of despicable behaviour we saw from eight years of Republican opposition to Obama's administration, and you're telling lies in order to do so.
    Same ****, different day.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    at one time the party not in power was considered the "loyal opposition" in that while they would often oppose the party in power and had many different ideas on how to run the country, could still be counted upon to do what is best for the country and compromise to get things done.

    Today's Republican "party of no" can't even compromise with it's own members and it is the party in power. So yes, oppositional politics has gone too far when even a single party cannot line up it's own members to work on it's agenda. This is all on the Republicans and has been ever since they took over the legislative branch almost 12 years ago
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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Hillary IS, as I said at the time, crooked as a barrel of snakes, and Trump IS a narcissistic buffoon. Probably crooked too!

    In an attempt at non-partisan commentary, I asked an honest question. Is this endless investigative spirit since Watergate a good spirit or a bad spirit?

    But as Michael reminds me, I tried to step away from these political donnybrooks some weeks ago, and shall try again.
    Jack, your habit of using misleading euphemisms, metaphors and fallacious assumptions about real events undermines the sincerity and honesty of your attempt.

    People should have an investigative spirit when investigating REAL things. Sure there are also political motivations but your lumping very different events together prevents you from discussing the actual topic you raised.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    In an attempt at non-partisan commentary, I asked an honest question. Is this endless investigative spirit since Watergate a good spirit or a bad spirit?
    The Bill Clinton investigation and eventual trial for impeachment was "payback" for impeaching Nixon. The investigations into Hillary were nothing more than a long smear campaign to prevent her from becoming president (I will give them points for identifying her as a political threat way back then) and the investigation of the DOJ into The Donald is not a partisan attack, but an honest investigation into a man who appears to be compromised by outside forces and may be using his office to enrich his and his' family's holdings.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    The Bill Clinton investigation and eventual trial for impeachment was "payback" for impeaching Nixon. The investigations into Hillary were nothing more than a long smear campaign to prevent her from becoming president (I will give them points for identifying her as a political threat way back then) and the investigation of the DOJ into The Donald is not a partisan attack, but an honest investigation into a man who appears to be compromised by outside forces and may be using his office to enrich his and his' family's holdings.
    Aha, but wait! Since the investigation was initiated by Trumps very own Republican appointees that’s just more evidence how out of hand this investigative Spirit has become. This Spirit that walked the halls of the Whitehouse and our schools, yes our very schools where Marxism is taught. A fifth column of our children led by a ravenous partisan Spirit.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Yes, oppositional politics has gone too far. We could discuss the causes; Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, and the 'energize the base' strategy, the rise of right-wing talk radio, the multiplying of sources of news and commentary and the resultant specialization, the completely asymmetric polarization of US politics in which the right has disappeared over the starboard horizon while the left is in about the same place it was in 1990, any number of things. But it will be useless, Jack, and long as you're holding on to false equivalence like grim death. The idea that Hillary Clinton is as corrupt as Donald Trump is far, far beyond the sparkly pink unicorn class. Trump is on track to handily pass Tyler or Buchanan or Fillmore or Grant as the worst ever (although Grant's been somethat rehabilitated of late).

    Watergate was real. Iran-Contra was real. The Lewinsky affair was real, but trivial. Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! Benghazi!! was bullsh!t, utter propaganda, as was all the business with the e-mail server. Mueller's investigation is looking into something possibly more serious than all of these put together.

    NO, they don't all do that.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 03-07-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Crabby hermits.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    ok, Jack I’m done picking on you about this topic. I think you can have an honest discussion here just be willing to look at your lumping together of very different events. Course corrections, checks and balances, oversight in and of themselves aren’t excessive, whether something is excessive is how it’s done. Watergate was about something real, Iran Contra was about something real. The Whitewater investigation continued on and on until a bj revelation to undermine many political decisions from healthcare to US foreign policy in Iraq. Benghazi was used to influence the 2012 presidential election and then the 2016 election. Trump is presently ignoring Congress’s unanimous vote to impose sanctions on Russian oligarchs.

    Are you seriously trying to dismiss the basis for the investigation into Russias activities and Trumps conflicts?
    Last edited by LeeG; 03-07-2018 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    ok, Jack I’m done picking on you about this topic. I think you can have an honest discussion here just be willing to look at your lumping together of very different events. Course corrections, checks and balances, oversight in and of themselves aren’t excessive, whether something is excessive is how it’s done. Watergate was about something real, Iran Contra was about something real. The Whitewater investigation continued on and on until a bj revelation to undermine many political decisions from healthcare to US foreign policy in Iraq. Benghazi was used to influence the 2012 presidential election and then the 2016 election. Trump is presently ignoring Congress’s unanimous vote to impose sanctions on Russia.

    Are you seriously trying to dismiss the basis for the investigation into Russias activities and Trumps conflicts?
    After a number of efforts over the years, I've concluded that jack is incapable of having an 'honest discussion'. He tries. I think he honestly tries. But I've never seen him manage it, except in fits and starts. Too much Motivated Reasoning. Too little depth of knowledge combined with too much willingness to frame his partial understanding of things as overarching principle.

    Good on you for continuing to attempt to engage with him. Maybe he'll someday come around... and you would deserve part of the credit. I've decided life is too short. G'luck!!
    Last edited by David G; 03-07-2018 at 11:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Has oppositional politics gone too far?

    Jack, your habit of using misleading euphemisms, metaphors and fallacious assumptions about real events undermines the sincerity and honesty of your attempt.

    People should have an investigative spirit when investigating REAL things.
    Yes, to the "investigative spirit when investigating REAL things", and doing so requires that one recognize the falseness of "the sincerity and honesty of your (the op's) attempt".




    And I'm no Trump supporter. ... Crooked Hillary ..
    Since 'Crooked Hillary' is 45's (& his supporters) line, when you start with a lie about yourself, it's pretty much hard to believe anything else said.

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