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Thread: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    David,

    I should have said "my most extensive" not "my only". I have read into 'Capitol', though can't claim to have read the whole thing. Have you?

    A central theme, roughly stated, is that all property derives from theft.

    Another, a rough quote from memory, "From those according to their ability, to those according to their need." Sounds almost Christian, don't it? The problem on any scale larger than a commune, greed and dominance heirarchies take over the utopia. Hell, they do even on many commune level experiments.

    I'll take regulated capitalism in a society based on liberty over Marx's utopia, or current neo-Marxist apologists for the Soviets, any day.
    From all of this ^ (particularly the bolded bit) I can safely assume you haven't actually read any Marx at all, or, if you did, you skimmed at best.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Marx dead? No, Keith. Never!

    Art and Tom ... you miss the point.

    Humans are social animals - we wouldn't have got nearly so far over the past few thousand years if we didn't, on some level, work together - and we can see that caring, nurturing and sharing is for our ultimate better good. Those that abuse this natural system (and there will be some, that's Game Theory in action) also known as the greedy: Marx's evil mill-owners, for example, exploiting the proletariat and reaping the profits of others' labour for their own personal benefit - need to be held back by societal constraints. At least taxed and controlled. And preferably their profits used for the greater good of all. Ultimately Communism says "stuff that - give the mill to the workers". If done justly, I see absolutely no problem with this.

    Why on Earth should 'a better education because of class and opportunity' or 'the few million I inherited' be on any level the basis for personal, individual improvement, rather than be used as a springboard for the betterment of all society? What benefits humanity the most - a rich individual living in their gated community unaware of the other 99%, or a better-educated, healthier populace living together in a more equitable world?

    Andy, the Communist. ...And a bit of a hippie, I guess.
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Communism on it's own is not a bad thing, but it neglects one basic precept of the human experience- Humans are greedy. there is always going to some one who wants more, more wealth, more boats, more likes, or more power.
    What sacrilege! Wanting more power, more wealth or more likes is a sign of greed, but wanting more boats is a sign of intelligence, moral purity and all the other human virtues.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    David,

    I should have said "my most extensive" not "my only". I have read into 'Capitol', though can't claim to have read the whole thing. Have you?

    A central theme, roughly stated, is that all property derives from theft.

    Another, a rough quote from memory, "From those according to their ability, to those according to their need." Sounds almost Christian, don't it? The problem on any scale larger than a commune, greed and dominance heirarchies take over the utopia. Hell, they do even on many commune level experiments.

    I'll take regulated capitalism in a society based on liberty over Marx's utopia, or current neo-Marxist apologists for the Soviets, any day.
    Soooooo... rather than address even one thing from my #14 - you flop down this little gem?

    Let me ask just one question. Maybe you can actually stay on point with just one to ponder --

    What was the point of starting this thread?
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    David,

    I should have started it as a debate proposition.

    Marx is very much rooted in another German philosopher, Hegel. Thesis...anti-thesis results in synthesis. It's rooted in a very sound psychological image of opposites I happen to agree with. It's sound because in my personal experience it's the way the mind works.

    Where he goes astray is in overstepping a specific phenomenon of the human psyche and making a utopia of his imagined synthesis: An ideal dictatorship of the proletariat will arise from the conflict between, and then synthesis of, the property owners(bourgeoisie) and the un-propertied workers(proletariat).

    A dictatorship of the proletariat, this side of a major transformation in human consciousness, is a pipe dream. Those who have tried to institute it from the top down have been monsters.

    By the by, as I've stated elsewhere I happen to believe a major transformation in human consciousness is afoot. I object, most strongly, to idealogues trying to force it from the top down because they are, almost by definition, thwarting the transformation by feeding our young people horse hockey.
    So many questions, so little time.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    David,

    I should have started it as a debate proposition.

    Marx is very much rooted in another German philosopher, Hegel. Thesis...anti-thesis results in synthesis. It's rooted in a very sound psychological image of opposites I happen to agree with. It's sound because in my personal experience it's the way the mind works.

    Where he goes astray is in overstepping a specific phenomenon of the human psyche and making a utopia of his imagined synthesis: An ideal dictatorship of the proletariat will arise from the conflict between, and then synthesis of, the property owners(bourgeoisie) and the un-propertied workers(proletariat).

    A dictatorship of the proletariat, this side of a major transformation in human consciousness, is a pipe dream. Those who have tried to institute it from the top down have been monsters.

    By the by, as I've stated elsewhere I happen to believe a major transformation in human consciousness is afoot. I object, most strongly, to idealogues trying to force it from the top down because they are, almost by definition, thwarting the transformation by feeding our young people horse hockey.
    Well... that was totally non-responsive to anything I'd said.

    BuhBye
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    "Can't stand the heat..."
    So many questions, so little time.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Yeah, that must be it.

    By the way, Jack, not only did Marx NOT say "property is theft", he was critical of Proudhon, who did say it.

    What are you doing about it?




  9. #44
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    I didn't quote him, I said it was a distillation. Which it is. The ruling class owns the means of production which is de facto, according to Marxist theory, unfair - a form of theft.

    Don't get me wrong, it often IS unfair because of inherited position and property. Life is unfair, and people of property are often really decent people, both.
    So many questions, so little time.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    "Can't stand the heat..."
    “our young people..”

    so many questions and so little interest in answers or a dialogue that leads to them.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    "Can't stand the heat..."
    <snort> Clueless once again.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    I like you David. I think your way of being, your solipsism, is coming to an end, but I wish you well.


    The Man Watching


    I can tell by the way the trees beat, after
    so many dull days, on my worried windowpanes
    that a storm is coming,
    and I hear the far-off fields say things
    I can't bear without a friend,
    I can't love without a sister.

    The storm, the shifter of shapes, drives on
    across the woods and across time,
    and the world looks as if it had no age:
    the landscape, like a line in the psalm book,
    is seriousness and weight and eternity.

    What we choose to fight is so tiny!
    What fights with us is so great.
    If only we would let ourselves be dominated
    as things do by some immense storm,
    we would become strong too, and not need names.

    When we win it's with small things,
    and the triumph itself makes us small.
    What is extraordinary and eternal
    does not want to be bent by us.
    I mean the Angel who appeared
    to the wrestlers of the Old Testament:
    when the wrestlers' sinews
    grew long like metal strings,
    he felt them under his fingers
    like chords of deep music.

    Whoever was beaten by this Angel
    (who often simply declined the fight)
    went away proud and strengthened
    and great from that harsh hand,
    that kneaded him as if to change his shape.
    Winning does not tempt that man.
    This is how he grows: by being defeated, decisively,
    by constantly greater beings.

    Rilke
    So many questions, so little time.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Jesus effing puerile post.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    How so? Specifics please. Puerile - adolescent. I said I thought David was self referential, and offered him a different view by one of the great German poets.
    So many questions, so little time.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    <snort> Clueless once again.

    Sorry, but you have made it onto my 'wasted too much time attempting rational discourse, not worth further efforts to seriously engage with' list. You haven't made the leap to Ignore yet, but you're teetering.

    But I'm happy to lampoon any further inanity you care to litter the Bilge with.

    You'd probably be better off, though, to follow your own advice and refrain from the attempt. You're really not very good at it. You seem incapable of realizing your own embarrassment... but you have friends here who are clearly embarrassed for you.
    Last edited by David G; 03-07-2018 at 10:55 AM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Marx was a deep thinker and is worth reading.

    But his understanding of human nature was optimistic.

    Everyone likes to harvest -- no one wants to weed.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post

    Everyone likes to harvest -- no one wants to weed.
    I’m going to remember that.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I’m going to remember that.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    ...
    There is quantity and then there is quality. The better books have a more limited college audience. And are used in fewer classes.

    One really should teach "good" theories to beginners. Leave the "poor" theories to those who have sufficient sophistication to form rational opinions.
    Life is complex.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Personally, I preferred Groucho.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Karl Marx among the top three texts at university

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Personally, I preferred Groucho.
    Not Chico? I'd have guessed you for a Chico man.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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