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Thread: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What part of it isn't true?
    The part where john implies that such tactics necessarily and always result in the perception mentioned.

    I would say instead that such tactics 'can and often do' if overdone or done badly. As I've said several times already.
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    If history is to be believed an investigation of the most active of the agents provocateurs would find many of them are plants from the right, and the intelligence services. The old 'socialist left' in Aus was so infiltrated that half the branch secretaries, most of the demo organisers and nearly all the funding were plants from the Government agencies. The far right needs the 'extreme left' far more than their political rivals do, and will manufacture one if all else fails.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Yep. I have friends who have been involved in outing agents provocateurs at peaceful demonstrations.

    What are you doing about it?




  4. #74
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    If history is to be believed an investigation of the most active of the agents provocateurs would find many of them are plants from the right, and the intelligence services. The old 'socialist left' in Aus was so infiltrated that half the branch secretaries, most of the demo organisers and nearly all the funding were plants from the Government agencies. The far right needs the 'extreme left' far more than their political rivals do, and will manufacture one if all else fails.
    It was so during the Vietnam War - which is my earliest activist experience. And they were often the ones responsible for over-the-top tactics. But not always. Passion and youthful bad judgement also played a part.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by cglynn View Post
    ^^^^Who would not exist if there were no fascists.

    Remember kids, we had Antifa in the 40's too. They were called soldiers. And today, they are largely regarded as heroes.

    Food for thought?
    Indeed, my Dad was antifa for 6 years.
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    One last comment, maybe. Tom's equation of Jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw ghetto to antifa is obscene.
    So many questions, so little time.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    One last comment, maybe. Tom's equation of Jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw ghetto to antifa is obscene.
    Oh, I don't know. They're both fighting fascism, and that's a good thing.

    What are you doing about it?




  8. #78
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Not if you are a fascist or of their ilk!
    Skip

    ---This post is delivered with righteous passion and with a solemn southern directness --
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    oh, those silly antifa at it again. fighting the good fight

    For balance Alan, maybe you could put the worst images of fascist atrocities next to these worst images of Antifa 'atrocities'?


    Violence is never preferred, but to ignore that they are talking about white supremacists is just obfuscation. Why would you obfuscate on that - except to support the fascists....?
    Is there another conclusion to be had?
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Orca,

    OK it wasn't my last comment.

    Grim faced fighters, against by report at the time impending annihilation, taking up what look like sub-machine guns and putting their lives on the line to make a last stand against their oppressors, somehow equals spoiled brats, who have nothing better to do with their meaningless middle-class existence than parrot antifa slogans against milquetoast nazis?
    So many questions, so little time.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Better to stop a disease earlier than later.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by ishmael View Post
    Grim faced fighters, against by report at the time impending annihilation, taking up what look like sub-machine guns and putting their lives on the line to make a last stand against their oppressors, somehow equals spoiled brats, who have nothing better to do with their meaningless middle-class existence than parrot antifa slogans against milquetoast nazis?
    My, my, Jack, I didn't realize you knew the kids personally. Or... are you just making sh|t up again?

    Opposing fascism is a good thing. It's peculiar that you want to spin it as a bad thing.

    What are you doing about it?




  13. #83
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    haha, "why don't you post videos of nazis?"

    well, we're not talking about the nazis, we're talking about the fascist antifa tactics.


    i really love this comparison of soldiers fighting off an armed military invasion to college punks in masks beating up people in wheelchairs b/c they don't like what they have to say. yea, they're the SAME i tells ya.

    let's say it ONE. MORE. TIME. for the super duper slow folks.... NAZI BAD. WHITE SUPREMACIST BAD. neither of which should make someone beat up an old lady or beat up reporters or burn cars.


    question.... when antifa attempts to beat up the black guy, was it b/c of his nazi status or his white supremacist status?

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    "...we're talking about the fascist antifa tactics."


    That's funny.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    "...we're talking about the fascist antifa tactics."


    That's funny.


    it's definitely ironic. "forcible suppression of opposition"

    if you really wanted to be "anti-fascism" you'd think you'd try to do it without dressing up in hoods, masks, helmets, shields, and clubs and going around beating on people with bad ideas.

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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    The part where john implies that such tactics necessarily and always result in the perception mentioned.

    I would say instead that such tactics 'can and often do' if overdone or done badly. As I've said several times already.
    So a few bloody faces and a few smashed windows, a few stores looted and burned are OK because there is a logical possibility that the harm can be limited, and won't provoke a fascist reaction. What gives you the right to gamble on it?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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  17. #87
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Orca,

    I've watched interviews with their leadership(such as it is), I've watched videos of their street theater turning ugly, I've formed an opinion. You remember those, they're like ********, everyone has one.
    So many questions, so little time.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    So a few bloody faces and a few smashed windows, a few stores looted and burned are OK because there is a logical possibility that the harm can be limited, and won't provoke a fascist reaction. What gives you the right to gamble on it?
    If you're actually interested in my thoughts on the topic - go back and read what I've written. I think I've already answered most/all of your wonderings. If you still have questions after... feel free to give it another go.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Still don't understand what a gang fight has to do with free speech. Neither side here was speaking, or even trying to.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    "Shut up."

    "Make me."

    "Go away."

    "Make me."

    "Shut up."

    "Make me."


    ...yup; sounds like reasoned political debate to me.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    The part where john implies that such tactics necessarily and always result in the perception mentioned.

    I would say instead that such tactics 'can and often do' if overdone or done badly. As I've said several times already.
    In my humble opinion, once you go down that path it is extremely difficult to control. That's the whole point of agents provocateur, once you get the ball rolling with violence, it tends to escalate until directed violence is replaced by undirected violence. Next thing you know, merchants like me are having their window broken and thugs with no political agenda are busting the place up and looting. How do you suppose they will react to this?

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    In my humble opinion, once you go down that path it is extremely difficult to control. That's the whole point of agents provocateur, once you get the ball rolling with violence, it tends to escalate until directed violence is replaced by undirected violence. Next thing you know, merchants like me are having their window broken and thugs with no political agenda are busting the place up and looting. How do you suppose they will react to this?
    Quite true. It's a dangerous tactic, and only employed deliberately by the ignorant... or the desperate.
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i really love this comparison of soldiers fighting off an armed military invasion to college punks in masks beating up people in wheelchairs b/c they don't like what they have to say. yea, they're the SAME i tells ya.
    Antifa is not fit to carry the jockstrap of the WW2 resistance to fascism.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  24. #94
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    I wonder how many Antifa supporters are honorable military service veterans? Moreover - how many anti-Anifa have taken the oath to serve their country and served their time honorably. I bet the numbers are quite similarly small and is as reflective as those who put these trolling posting here.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    i don't care to make assumptions about their military service member numbers. frankly, it doesn't matter.

    antifa, a good idea... but they're making a bad practice of it.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    antifa, a good idea... but they're making a bad practice of it.
    A follower of Gandhi Alan?
    You should be so proud of your open mindedness and acceptance of all - even white supremacists. Good on you!

    Me? I'm quite cool with someone giving the bully a bloody nose. Let them know they do not go unchallenged in any arena they choose.
    Everyman carries within himself a world made up of all that he has seen and loved; and it is to this world that he returns incessantly, though he may pass through, and seem to inhabit, a world quite foreign to it.
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i don't care to make assumptions about their military service member numbers. frankly, it doesn't matter.

    antifa, a good idea... but they're making a bad practice of it.
    Mobs tend to be on the ugly side but I’d rather an anti fascist than a fascist.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Antifa is not fit to carry the jockstrap of the WW2 resistance to fascism.
    Maybe because of Antifa highlighting complacency over these issues, nobody will have to carry that jockstrap.
    Maybe, if there had been a groundswell of ungainly, badly timed, passionate, 'means well but' demonstrations of resistance earlier on - WW2 resistance to facism wouldn't have been needed?

    Its a long bow I know, given the times of the 1930's, but antifa might be a blessing now. By highlighting violent racism and bigotry they might be saving lives from some unrequired war?

    Antifa ... has its roots in political groups from the 1930s in Europe. These groups were primarily organized by communists and socialist democrats, and actively fought against Nazism and fascism during and after World War II. ..... These groups continued their political activism into the 2000s, protesting against the Iraq War.
    https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2017/03/23/...al-resistance/
    Everyman carries within himself a world made up of all that he has seen and loved; and it is to this world that he returns incessantly, though he may pass through, and seem to inhabit, a world quite foreign to it.
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  29. #99
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    well, back in the 1920s, I doubt anybody realized where Fascism would lead us. Aside from Hitler's predilection with genocide and taking over Europe, it worked well enough for Italy and Spain, at least until Germany dragged Italy along for the ride into WW2. Now that we know better, people like antifa can help the world nip it in the bud before it has a chance to flower
    In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949)
    I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. Its the one characteristic that connects all the
    defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

    Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.

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  30. #100
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Maybe because of Antifa highlighting complacency over these issues, nobody will have to carry that jockstrap.
    Maybe, if there had been a groundswell of ungainly, badly timed, passionate, 'means well but' demonstrations of resistance earlier on - WW2 resistance to facism wouldn't have been needed?

    Its a long bow I know, given the times of the 1930's, but antifa might be a blessing now. By highlighting violent racism and bigotry they might be saving lives from some unrequired war?



    https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2017/03/23/...al-resistance/
    Yup.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    well, back in the 1920s, I doubt anybody realized where Fascism would lead us. Aside from Hitler's predilection with genocide and taking over Europe, it worked well enough for Italy and Spain, at least until Germany dragged Italy along for the ride into WW2. Now that we know better, people like antifa can help the world nip it in the bud before it has a chance to flower
    Which is why it's easy to see why the Antifa folks of today would be that much more adamant, incensed, and willing to not only break the law, but to offend old mossbacks, Miss Manners, and all good liberals.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Maybe, if there had been a groundswell of ungainly, badly timed, passionate, 'means well but' demonstrations of resistance earlier on - WW2 resistance to fascism wouldn't have been needed?
    There was; quite a large one, as your link detailed. It didn't work. The moderates and conservatives didn't understand how dangerous the far right really was, and were at least as afraid of the Communists - and in the hard times of the 1930s, with Stalin in power in the USSR and serious Communist movements in most western European countries, that was not an unreasonable fear. The Soviet Union was every bit as murderous to its own citizens as Hitler's Germany. We don't have that problem now - but many conservatives still don't understand the monster they've created.

    I think it's likely the 'antifa' people aren't helping their cause. Good intentions; self-defeating tactics.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Sorry Keith, but Phil Ochs keeps running in my head.

    The tack you're taking is just what we in the anti-war movement heard about everything from cuss-words on signs to marching outside the lines during active demonstrations.

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Antifa thugs disrupt free speach in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    There was; quite a large one, as your link detailed. It didn't work. The moderates and conservatives didn't understand how dangerous the far right really was, and were at least as afraid of the Communists - and in the hard times of the 1930s, with Stalin in power in the USSR and serious Communist movements in most western European countries, that was not an unreasonable fear. The Soviet Union was every bit as murderous to its own citizens as Hitler's Germany.
    I acknowledged it was a long bow given the times.

    However, if only from a purely marketing perspective, reviling white supremacist activity is worth while.

    I don't believe people will be more accepting of white supremacists just because they disagree with Antifa methods. It is more likely they will grow an understanding of the scale of the problem and link it solidly with the political times we live in. So what if people don't like Antifa, when public discourse makes it clear that white supremacists are unwanted, and politicians know they can't offer them support, and they fade back into their hills - Antifa will fade away too. Antifa are not a threat to society.
    Everyman carries within himself a world made up of all that he has seen and loved; and it is to this world that he returns incessantly, though he may pass through, and seem to inhabit, a world quite foreign to it.
    Chateau-Briand, Voyage en Italie.

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