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Thread: Installing new Nanni engine

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    be verrrry careful with the blaster young Skywalker...

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    The blaster can make furry timber ferry quickly...

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    As John B said ++++. Ive seen pressure blasters cut a deep furrow into wet oregon, just a dishwashing brush, the goo of choice (like the idea of the hand cleaner) and some normal hose pressure adjusted to a fine hard spray. The pressure cleaner is for outside and carefully at that and it will put water where gravity cannot. Dont forget, the ormanoid/whatever may have been applied to dry healthy timber. The borax based timber preservers will halt the furryness of oregon.
    the invisible man........

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Well, I've been using small water-blasters in boat restoration for a few decades now so I'll probably be okay with it ... Don't panic!

    Also decided not to go with Ormanoid for the gaps in the tar. Instead, I'm going to use Sika 291. Primarily because I can paint over it almost straight away instead of waiting weeks. I'll be using an oil-based primer over that and then a good enamel paint.

    No oregon. It's all kauri. Only one very small patch of planking has a bit of furriness and, of course, I won't go near that bit with the blaster. The only bits that are furry are the upper surfaces of a couple of frames and I'll be extra careful around them.


    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 03-21-2018 at 11:42 PM.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Painting an isolated small area of furriness that doesnt need to be cut out, with epoxy diluted 50:50 with methylated spirits can stiffen the wood up nicely.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Can you dilute epoxy with metho? I know Everdure is epoxy diluted with an evaporating solvent and i know TPRD is a diluting solvent for Bote Cote but I've never heard of using metho! Where did you get that from? Great tip if it works! I'll sand out all furry bits anyway but I will add thinned epoxy to the little patch of furry planking I have. I just have to make sure that there's no grease there as I don't want an epoxy `lid' over that patch. Rain's persisting so no progress today. We do need the rain ...... but I hate rainy days!!!

    But today I'll get a bit of scrap wood and try the metho thing.

    Rick

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    You clean epoxy up with it , it definitely thins it. I have done it for something but I forget what. ( diluted epoxy fumes does that to you.)

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Maybe soak a little water/borax mixture into the area first, let dry then epoxy. That way the borax will do its stuff whenever the area is wet and won't hurt anything else. Lucky you were careful with the pressure cleaner, otherwise the WB enforcers would have had to confiscate the device and who knows what else they would find once they came aboard! Any polyurethane products, epoxy, any plastic other than a cutting board or compass, any lubricants other than long chain hydrocarbons, electronic devices used for navigation, the list goes on.
    the invisible man........

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I haven't used the pressure cleaner on this job yet as it's still raining. But I will and I'll hit the suspect areas with borax too. The rain's really set in now so ..... maybe tomorrow.

    I have, however, picked up the smaller hose clamps and it all looks perfect to me, so I'm happy about that. They'll only just slide onto the hose, the clamp tightens at about half its range and the fit seems rock solid with no apparent distortion. I'm not unhappy that the hose is a little oversized. I'm really fed up with hoses that have to be softened with heat etc. to jam them on and can then only be removed by cutting them off. As long as the clamping is really solid and there are no leaks, a slightly loose unclamped fit suits me! Especially in awkward places .....

    Now, ball valves .... I'll need a new 25mm skin fitting and ball valve for the engine water intake. I can buy bronze just about anywhere but, Adrian, you suggested a valve without a SS ball. I've had a bit of a look and I can't find anything. I haven't had or heard of anyone having any problem with SS internals and, of course, I don't want to spend a fortune on this one component ...... Suggestions?

    Rick

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    That coupling looks like a Kiwi made 'Craven' ( long since out of production) very similar to Vetus. I had one on my Bukh 10. My friend with the 46' Lidgard has had one for 40+ years - no problems.

    Bunnings have a pourable /self leveling polyurethane 'Duram' similar to 291

    Some of those so called ''bronze '' ball valves are in fact DRZ with a chrome plated DRZ ball.
    Last edited by Neil C; 03-22-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Rick, problem with ball valves are, bronze but what sort? Stainless ball, but what sort? Nylon ball seat, could be torn by barnacle. The shaft that drives the ball can be brass. I used some of these in some locations but I don't particularly like them and will eventually replace them with traditional. They are an industrial spec item, not marine spec. Typically Australian blokey, near enough seems to be good enough for most of the marine industry here, there is a recreational approach to boating here. With aviation, this attitude is common and a constant battle, rant over. Maybe use the ball valves and dismantle/inspect in 12 months and see how they are going, this is risk management aviation style. I f they look very good, then 18 months and so on. I would dismantle and pack with lanolin grease before installation.
    the invisible man........

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil C View Post
    That coupling looks like a Kiwi made 'Craven' ( long since out of production) very similar to Vetus. I had one on my Bukh 10. My friend with the 46' Lidgard has had one for 40+ years - no problems.

    Bunnings have a pourable /self leveling polyurethane 'Duram' similar to 291

    Some of those so called ''bronze '' ball valves are in fact DRZ with a chrome plated DRZ ball.
    There's nothing wrong with the old coupling. The problem is that it's really difficult to align in the tight space available - according to the guy who installed Masina's new shaft a few years ago. I thought the Vetus one looked pretty similar.

    I think the 291 will be okay. I'll trowel it in with a scraper.

    I've been using standard bronze ball valves, with the SS or whatever it is, ball in a plastic seat for many years and never had a problem. I try to remember to `exercise' them pretty regularly and inspect and grease them when I antifoul. I'll keep doing that. The only actual problem I've ever had is that the nut that holds the lever on can rust and need replacement every so often. But, yes, if there's a better valve available and it's not TOO expensive, then I'd be happy to go that way.

    Masina's big taper valves used to leak really badly, on the other hand. If I'd had a broken cockpit drain hose, I couldn't have stopped water flowing in through the valve. I'm sure that maintenance could have prevented this and they were very old but they really needed to be pulled apart pretty regularly, I think. Not a job I'd want to be doing when I'm paying over $100 a day at the boatyard and they were in a very difficult place to access - having been installed when Masina had no engine. Putting an engine in Masina made a lot of simple maintenance tasks much more difficult! I wish I was brave enough to keep her engineless!

    Rick

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    HI,

    Seacocks: I would not not bargain hunt here. A seacock--as opposed to a ball valve--has several advantages. One, the handle only moves 90-degrees from full open to full closed. This lets you know at a glance whether the valve is open or closed. it also makes operation in tight quarters easier.

    A seacock's handle has a square hole in it so that one can reach with a socket wrench and operate the lever in a deep recess.

    A seacock will have a grease fitting so that it can be lubed.

    A seacock will have a flange at its base, so as to more securely fit against a backing block in the hull and to better resist breaking due to a lateral stress--such as someone stepping on them.

    Finally, a seacock threads are straight, as are the threads on marine skin fittings. A ball valve's threads are tapered. It will jam onto a skin fitting, but not engage enough threads to be secure.

    There's a good discourse here, from our host's sister publication.


    https://www.proboat.com/2010/04/the-...-for-seacocks/


    Best

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    But, yes, if there's a better valve available and it's not TOO expensive, then I'd be happy to go that way.
    Rick
    Im with Kevin on this. How much is your boat worth? Are you willing to pay the difference between a "suspect" valve, and a known marine grade item, in order to not see the tip of your mast next to your mooring bouy? I have been looking at exactly the same item last night, and getting a bit of sticker shock, but, ask yourself the question.....

    I dont ever recall seeing so many stainless steel through hulls before either, maybe if you change them every year it might be a risk worth taking. Wasnt someone making Delrin gate valves?

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I don't use `suspect' valves. I do suspect that the ball valves in the US are quite different to those here as ours certainly have the lever in line for open and at 90 degrees for closed. The way I mount and use bronze fittings and ball valves is very secure. I haven't seen any ball valves that don't screw onto skin fittings properly either.

    I've seen flanged seacocks on plenty of old boats here but I don't see them in any shops or even with any of the online suppliers. I think the bronze skin fitting and bronze ball valve combination generally used here is pretty standard. Happy to be corrected!

    The Trudesign GRP range of ball valves seem pretty good too - Masina's had one for a long time for the main bilge pump. Lighter than bronze. I might fit one of those for the engine yet - perhaps their GRP skin fitting too ...

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 03-23-2018 at 09:23 AM.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Can you dilute epoxy with metho? I know Everdure is epoxy diluted with an evaporating solvent and i know TPRD is a diluting solvent for Bote Cote but I've never heard of using metho! Where did you get that from?

    But today I'll get a bit of scrap wood and try the metho thing.

    Rick
    JB got it! I had been using meths for cleaning unhardened epoxy, and took it from there, also the other solvents were expensive or hard to get.

    I did it when I had my trimaran, but had originally done it on parts of a house window sill. I just kept painting it on until no more would soak in. It takes quite a bit of stirring to dissolve the epoxy, add more meths if it is too thick, it will still evaporate out leaving the solids. I have a relative who was an epoxy engineer who I ran it past. His reply was that it would be ok as long as I didnt try to glass over it before evaporation/outgassing had finished. That was fine because I wasnt going to glass it anyway.
    I remember trying it on a piece of very thin 3ply and was surprised how much it stiffened it up to bending forces once it was dry.

    Beware of the alcohol fumes in a confined space.
    Last edited by Stiletto; 03-23-2018 at 06:09 PM.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Hic!

    Thanks Stiletto!

    Rick

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Progress: The engine bay's been blasted out - nobody died and the boat's still afloat. My water blaster is only a small one, not a whole lot more powerful than a garden hose. Now I need to leave it all to dry. The patches of furry timber are at the edges of some of the pockets filled with tar. My guess is that the tar was poured in when Masina was built and found its own level. A few years later, the engine - a heavy one! was installed, and that caused the stern to sit lower. Consequently, water hasn't been able to flow past some frames and has sat there causing damage. As the new engine weighs about the same as the old one, I intend to do two things. Firstly, install the engine a little further forward, shaft allowing. Secondly, I'll overfill the pockets where water has collected and form slightly deeper channels where needed. I will need to did two frame ends out of big pools of tar to repair them

    I've ordered Trudesign ball valve and fittings, including a bearing collar for the valve.

    Rick

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I was going to suggest Trudesign but I thought you were set on bronze. I can't use their through hulls because of our hull thickness( 25 mm/ 1 inch), so I use a bronze through hull/ skin fitting and trudesign valves.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I've only ever installed bronze but I'm always happy to use new technology if it's actually better. I nearly bought a Marelon fitting a while ago but heard stories about handles breaking so went with the bronze then. I didn't know about the Trudesign range. That was when I replaced the fittings for the toilet. I've ordered the Trudesign skin fitting but I won't use it unless it looks/feels right. Masina's hull is about 1" - maybe a little less. Bronze fittings are easily available so if necessary, I'll just use one of those, as the valve will fit it properly, and I'll put the GRP fitting in my little boat restoration museum. The valve is costing about $70 but the skin fitting is only $20 or so. By the way, I priced a Spartan seacock here - $560. There must be other bronze seacocks available here but I haven't seen any and I'm not convinced that the older style is really better. Certainly not THAT much better!


    Ah, a sea eagle just flew over - nice! Fantastic day here! A good reminder of why we do this ...... er, stuff.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 03-24-2018 at 12:53 AM.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    If was just shopping for a new little vacuum cleaner for Balia, and noticed a whole shelf full of steam cleaners. I do t really buy the idea that we need to steam clean our houses to hospital grade sterility, but I did wonder if they'd be good for dissolving built up grease and grime in bilges

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Might be a bit hard on some of the old timber, maybe.

    So, I've dug two frame ends out of their tarry tombs. The frames are laminated; two layers, glued with resorcinol and, I think, glued with resorcinol to the planking. I've cut off the damaged ends and will now get the planking clean and sanded back where the replacement sections will go. I'll do a half-lap scarf using strips of PNG rosewood and epoxy, and epoxy glue the frame sections to the planking, fastening with bronze screws. Frames in Masina are screwed to the planking from inside. Then I'll bury them in Ormonoid Duraseal Putty (tar) and use the same tar to top up all the tar to a point beyond where water has been sitting.I'll put a layer of a bitumen finish coat over that after a while and then finish with an oil-based paint called Jet Dry. This is after consultation with Ormonoid technical support and various vain efforts to obtain traditional hot tar.

    The aim will be to have it all waterproof, eliminate all spots where water can pool against timber and facilitate passage of any water into the lazarette or engine bay, into the deep bilge well under the cabin. Later, I'll make a fibreglass drip tray to fit under the engine and a little drip tray to fit under the stern gland.

    The big oregon engine beds will be a bit high for the new engine so I'll need to trim about 30mm off the top of those. I'll also scarf in new timber to replace the big cutouts they have to accommodate the Bukh flywheel. The scarfs will be a sort of long trapezium in shape. The beds will be reinforced with two lengths of 10mm SS angle iron which is about 90 x 90 and the engine mounts will be fastened to these.

    Still not sure what coupling I'm going to use. The one I have is possibly a NZ Craven which seems very similar to the current Vetus coupling. But it's apparently really difficult to do the alignment with this thing so I'm yet to explore other options. With the old coupling now removed, I can begin to align the revamped beds. To start, I'm going to see if we (guru David and I) can fit a lightweight tube onto the shaft and extend it to the cabin bulkhead. We'll run a light, string etc. through the stern tube for proper alignment later on, when the boat's out of the water and we can remove the prop shaft.

    Weather looks good for the next few days so hopefully I'll get the waterproofing and painting done this week. In any case, I won't be able to finish the waterproofed area just yet though as the tar takes a long time to harden up enough to take a finish.

    Rick

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Jet dry sounds interesting , marketed as a paving paint.

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    It's very similar to a paint I've used on our plywood garage floor. Solvent based, so that it'll stick to the tar. It's very tough paint. I have a test board set up though, so that I can see how well it all sticks before I paint the boat. Great weather here today so just heading out now .....

    Rick

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Crossover paint technology always interests me. We have a flaking wooden porch at home for example, that stuff just didn't cut it despite what the paint guy said. So maybe this might be the go there.
    If it goes anywhere near as well as you hope you could get yourself a nice earner by sticking 'Ricks marine rockhard its the schizzle do everything paint' over the branding , mark it up 100% because of the word marine and go to the market.
    Last edited by John B; 03-26-2018 at 08:55 PM.

  26. #166
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I've used jet dry on cement floors years ago. Not great. But it won't get a lot of foot traffic under the motor, so provided it dries it should do fine.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I can't remember the name of the stuff we used on the garage floor. A guy at the chandlers recommended Jet Dry so I'm hoping it's similar. It sounds similar. Anyway, as above, I'll try it out before I paint the whole engine bay with it!

    Rick

  28. #168
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    I moulded up some bits of frame to replace the three frame ends that were damaged by water pooling on the waterproofing tar and lying against the frames.

    Frame.jpg

    The sections were about 150, 150 and 80mm. I've installed them with epoxy and bronze screws, hardened up various bits of furry planking and frames by sanding off and saturating with thinned epoxy. Now I've covered the area below the engine and shaft with bitumen waterproofing and I'll top that all up, layer by layer, with bitumen putty over the next week or so. Then it'll be painted with a bituminous primer (Ormonoid Silvershield), a regular primer and then finished. The area under the engine and shaft will be finished with Jet Dry (pending trial!) and the rest will be finished with Toplac gloss.

    Rick

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Well, it's all covered now in 21st century tar. Ormonoid Duraseal putty and sealed with Ormonoid Brushable Waterproofing. I'll leave it all til next week and then I'll cover it with Ormonoid Silvershield before painting it and the rest of the engine bay with a primer and finish coat. I've tested the Jet Dry in my shed on the various tars and Silvershield and the primer, and it seems pretty good. The tar stays a bit gooey but it's not in an area where it should be trodden on so that shouldn't matter.

    I'm waiting to find out whether I'll need new blades for my Volvo folding prop and I've pretty much decided to go with a Polyflex flexible coupliong. I'm also installing a new 88 litre fuel tank in the lazarette, up against the bulkhead between the lazarette and the engine bay. The old tank is about 60 litres and located in the bilge under the cabin. I'll remove that, clean it out and probably put it back in as a reserve tank. Filling the old tank meant bringing drums of fuel or a fuel hose into the cabin. The new tank will have a filler tube just behind the cockpit.

    Rick

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Sounds like a few nice improvements.

  31. #171
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Yes, it's good to have a little break from building houses to work on the boat. The area under the engine has worried me ever since I bought the boat so it's really nice to have been able to get in there and clean it all up. Now I have engine alignment dramas to look forward to and I still don't know if I'll need to change the prop.

    Rick

  32. #172
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Building houses no less, I wondered what you were doing. For some reason I thought you were refitting a property for yourself.

    I didn't find alignment too hard. You pull the boat , do it really carefully , put the boat in the water , see all your good work undone due to flex/ settling in etc, do it again.
    Funny alignment story cos its friday.
    I was peering up the stern tube of a Townson 32 . Their motors are way forward up at the mast bulkhead so it was long shaft ( out at the time). I could see by eye the gearbox coupling was out by inches, literally.
    Well there's the problem right there I thought, thats why the shaft is out.
    Nooooo, as it turns out . I learnt later that the long shaft was pretty light , say 3/4 in, and despite multiple bearings they had a tendency to whip and get some vibration on. So the answer was to deliberately build some bend in to take that out.
    Make it heavier , I hear someone saying ... Nooooo, Des Townson was the king of simplification and adding lightness to his delightful ,sailor's sailing yachts, noooo way.
    Last edited by John B; 04-12-2018 at 10:10 PM.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    Well, a bit less. Extensions and total interior rebuilds of two houses. One to be completed this year, the other, maybe 2020. They're both for us - we're idiots.

    Masina's shaft is 1" but short as it pokes out the side. I've made a template to check that it'll all fit, and it will. The only things I'll have to change are the cockpit drain hoses and that gives me an excuse to change the 2" bronze ball valves to Trudesign GRP ones with GRP elbows. Exercising the existing ones just about gives me a heart attack or a busted elbow every time so I'm quite happy to be forced into this change. I removed the 2" taper valves a couple of years ago as they weren't working at all. They're supposed to be the duck's guts so I might recondition them one day and put them back in - or not. They make pretty good looking doorstops as they are .....

    I'll need to knock about 40mm off the top of the engine beds. I'll be scarfing in big new sections of oregon in those too and then running two beds of 100 x 100 x 10mm SS angle iron on top.

    The primer I've put over the tar etc. seems to be doing a good job. I'll put another coat or two over it and then apply top coat right over the engine bay. I'd better take a photo or two.

    Rick

  34. #174
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    The good news is that the engine beds are now planed down and look pretty good. I just have to scarf in some new sections to repair the cutouts for the Bukh flywheel. That's tomorrow's job.

    But there's bad news too - and please note that I never pretended to know more than SFA about engines! The Nanni 4.20 HE that I bought has a Hurth HBW 125 - 2.5R gearbox. Those of you in the know will know that that means it has a reduction of 2.5 (actually 2.63). The propellor required would be much too big for our 6.5T yacht, even if there was room for it, and if I just keep it and run it with the existing prop, the engine won't have any load on it. Apparently that's a bad thing so I won't do it. So, a new gearbox is required - damn it! I can fit a TMC60 (reduction of 2.0) at a cost of about $2000 and probably sell the other one for around $1500, so it's not the end of the world, but certainly a problem I didn't want at this point!

    Rick

  35. #175
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    Default Re: Installing new Nanni engine

    It took me all day today just to carve out the cavities around the old Bukh flywheel cutouts. There was a bit of oil-soaked timber to remove but the main problem was achieving decent chisel angles in such a tight space. I now have aching joints where I don't think I even knew I had joints. The new scarfs are measured up but not cut yet. There's no chance that they'll fit anyway but I'll see if I can cut them tomorrow.

    Engine beds.jpg

    Rick

    i

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