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Thread: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

  1. #1
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    Default Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Doing some reading to prepare for my first strip canoe. I’ve seen references to using quarter sawn strips rather than edge sawn or flat sawn.

    What is the advantage of quarter sawn strips in a strip canoe? More bendable ? Stronger ? Is
    it worth more waste to convert flat/edge planks to peices that can be quarter sawn ?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    If its going to be glassed inside and out, I believe it does not matter. Maybe it helps prevent splitting, but that is more about grain run out.
    On a larger vessel, quarter sawn is about stability of the plank over time, ..expanding, contracting, warping, bulging.

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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Looks a lot better if you plan to finish bright. Otherwise, what Bruce says.
    Steve Martinsen

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    A flat sawn 1x6 is quartersawn into 1/4"x1" strips when you rip it the normal way, so no extra waste.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Yeah, it's all about the visuals.
    -Dave

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    I've used flat sawn strips on some of my builds, it can give an interesting effect. the dark cedar on near the shear on this cosine wherry is flat sawn. makes it harder to sand flat though, you can get ripples from the difference in density in the grain. In lighter wood, it would not be as dramatic, and probably not worth the extra trouble.
    oysterbayboats.ca

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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick in Pender Harbour View Post
    makes it harder to sand flat though, you can get ripples from the difference in density in the grain
    this can be a pain.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    this can be a pain.
    No, it is a pain.

    Edit: How to cut quarter sawn strips from quarter sawn wood in agonizing detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-g6pxVvp1I

    And if that wasn't too much detail:
    http://www.michneboat.com/Making%20Strips.htm
    http://www.michneboat.com/Builder's%20Corner.htm
    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-04-2018 at 03:54 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpaddler View Post
    Doing some reading to prepare for my first strip canoe. I’ve seen references to using quarter sawn strips rather than edge sawn or flat sawn.

    What is the advantage of quarter sawn strips in a strip canoe? More bendable ? Stronger ? Is
    it worth more waste to convert flat/edge planks to peices that can be quarter sawn ?
    Opinion from someone that's built five or six strip canoes, grain, & length of strips are not worth the search, time or cost.

    You're really not building a wood canoe your building a composite fiberglass canoe that just happens to have cedar wood as the core.

    You can get artistic with the different colors and tones of the wood, even create cool & different kinds of patterns in how you lay out the strips, it just goes on and on.

    Then, when you go to use it and get the first scratch and realize you maybe should have varnish with you whatever you go yep! welcome to the world of strip canoes!



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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    What species of wood, and what shape of strips? Square edged, or cove & bead?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

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  11. #11
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    Red face Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Opinion from someone that's built five or six strip canoes, grain, & length of strips are not worth the search, time or cost.

    You're really not building a wood canoe your building a composite fiberglass canoe that just happens to have cedar wood as the core.

    You can get artistic with the different colors and tones of the wood, even create cool & different kinds of patterns in how you lay out the strips, it just goes on and on.

    Then, when you go to use it and get the first scratch and realize you maybe should have varnish with you whatever you go yep! welcome to the world of strip canoes!



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    Sums it up quite well.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    We always looked for decent looking boards with pretty uniform color, no horrible spots and never worried too much about grain orientation. Never used bead and cove strips either (I've never seen any real need for them, as we only would need to edge bevel about four strips on the entire canoe hull). As Denise said, you're basically building a nice looking core, which isn't particularly structural by itself, so you are free to approach the cosmetics of grain orientation any way you find pleasing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    We always looked for decent looking boards with pretty uniform color, no horrible spots and never worried too much about grain orientation. Never used bead and cove strips either (I've never seen any real need for them, as we only would need to edge bevel about four strips on the entire canoe hull). As Denise said, you're basically building a nice looking core, which isn't particularly structural by itself, so you are free to approach the cosmetics of grain orientation any way you find pleasing.

    I'm deeply involved right now in re-canvassing of my wood canvas one-off canoe. The Northern White Cedar was quartersawn & bookmatched from bottom and up to about the water line then we used flat sawn. NOBODY has ever noticed or mentioned grain when looking at her.

    After finally making room in the basement by moving the table saw, I have tons of space and I'm starting to realize how much I miss building canoes & boats!


    Last edited by DeniseO30; 03-04-2018 at 09:44 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?



    Notice how the widest seams in this photo are the ones abutting the flattest grain. It does make a difference if the moisture content of the lumber is ever going to change much. Here one can assume that the planking is drier now than it was when installed. On a strip built canoe or kayak where the strips are very narrow any seams that open will still be almost invisible, but if the entire hull is done with flat grain and somehow the planking gets saturated you could get buckling.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    except, most people building strip canoes are using kiln dried. On a W/C canoe of course, the planks are purposely not "tight" to each other.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    We always looked for decent looking boards with pretty uniform color, no horrible spots and never worried too much about grain orientation. Never used bead and cove strips either (I've never seen any real need for them, as we only would need to edge bevel about four strips on the entire canoe hull). As Denise said, you're basically building a nice looking core, which isn't particularly structural by itself, so you are free to approach the cosmetics of grain orientation any way you find pleasing.
    I am surprised that Mr. Bradshaw is one of the heretics who doesn't use bead and cove. You can't fault the workmanship either.

    Having built 1-2% as many canoes as Todd, I actually have more experience than he does here. I have helped build one canoe where we had a handful of leftover bead and cove strips along with a small pile of leftover strips donated by someone else. In a side by side comparison, I have to say that the bead and cove was easier to keep together between forms where some of the square edge strips want to spring the wrong way. Compared to the volume of wood lost to milling the edges and the extra labor involved running the strips through the router, I don't see the need either.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    I am surprised that Mr. Bradshaw is one of the heretics who doesn't use bead and cove. You can't fault the workmanship either.

    Having built 1-2% as many canoes as Todd, I actually have more experience than he does here. I have helped build one canoe where we had a handful of leftover bead and cove strips along with a small pile of leftover strips donated by someone else. In a side by side comparison, I have to say that the bead and cove was easier to keep together between forms where some of the square edge strips want to spring the wrong way. Compared to the volume of wood lost to milling the edges and the extra labor involved running the strips through the router, I don't see the need either.
    B&C is nice and somewhat worth the trouble, what I liked best, you could run a finger tip with the glue bottle nozzle in the cove and lay the perfect amount of glue.

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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    I taught students to build using bead-and-cove. For beginners and novice woodworkers, it was a good way to go. There are a few caveats here - you've got to be able to mill and rout the strips well to get good results. This also works better for shorter boats where you've got more change of curvature going on in a short length - all things being equal, a longer stripper with less hull curvature is easier to build.

    Grain direction when milling the cove and bead strip is important to avoid having problems when milling the strips - hence the quarter sawn recommendation. I agree that length of strip is not important unless you're so OCD that the little joints are going to drive you nuts.

    Nick Schade of Guillemot Kayaks has a new tool that he refers to as the RoboBevel that looks good for strip builders - it is a tool that holds a small rabbet plane to bevel the strips once installed on the molds - it is targeted at beginners and looks like a great idea, frankly. (No personal interest here)
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  19. #19
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    I taught students to build using bead-and-cove. For beginners and novice woodworkers, it was a good way to go. There are a few caveats here - you've got to be able to mill and rout the strips well to get good results. This also works better for shorter boats where you've got more change of curvature going on in a short length - all things being equal, a longer stripper with less hull curvature is easier to build.

    Grain direction when milling the cove and bead strip is important to avoid having problems when milling the strips - hence the quarter sawn recommendation. I agree that length of strip is not important unless you're so OCD that the little joints are going to drive you nuts.

    Nick Schade of Guillemot Kayaks has a new tool that he refers to as the RoboBevel that looks good for strip builders - it is a tool that holds a small rabbet plane to bevel the strips once installed on the molds - it is targeted at beginners and looks like a great idea, frankly. (No personal interest here)
    I am more than sold on traditional building. Clinker Plank and rib for canoes, clinker or rivet and rove for lapstrake make me smile, strips and fiberglass make me frown. At this point in time, the only epoxy I want to use is for smaller things like laminations and maybe if I ever built plywood glued lapstrake but I'm soooo done with cloth and strips!

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    I am surprised that Mr. Bradshaw is one of the heretics who doesn't use bead and cove.
    I learned strip building back in the early 1970s, pretty much from guys working in a production situation at Wilderness Boats in Oregon, where they were trying to make a living building strippers which retailed for about $700 at that time. They didn't have a lot of time to mess around the way recreational builders do and they were usually averaging around 75 man-hours to turn out a 16-18' canoe. Norm Sims and I built our boats in his garage, and though not as fast as the Wilderness Boats crew, we used most of the same techniques. Bead and cove building hadn't even been invented yet, but really wasn't needed, even on really curvy hulls. The strips were stapled to the forms, so they didn't move around much at all, and between the forms you would run a line of short-legged staples which didn't go all the way through the strips, bridging the strips together. Things being out of alignment between the station forms really wasn't a problem. About the only hassle was when I would pick up the wrong staple gun and shoot a 9/16" staple through the strips and into my fingers which were backing up the spot while stapling. Canoe/kayak strips were only 3/16" thick and the glue used was Weldwood, which dries to a medium tan/brown color and has good gap filling ability, good color and excellent sand-ability without gumming when using high-speed sanders.

    We would generally stack maybe six to eight strips with their faces together using a bunch of spring clamps. Then we would roll a thick layer of glue along the edge of the stack and start applying them to the hull, one after another. None of this one strip at a time stuff. Usually we used the football technique, where the first night you lay up the bottom as a big, football-shaped panel. The next night, you trim it to shape and bevel its edges as needed toward the ends to accept the first side strips. That didn't take long, so you could usually strip up one whole side of the hull the same night. The next night the stem ends would be trimmed to accept the strips for the other side, followed by stripping that side. The following night, the stems would be trimmed and all the staples removed.

    Sanding the outside surface was next. Two passes with a big disk sander. The first used a rigid phenolic back-up plate and an 80 grit, resin-backed floor sanding disk. The second pass used a foam "feathering disk" pad and glued-on paper in the 150-180 grit range. Sanding the entire outside was easily done in two to three hours and you would be ready for fiberglassing the next day. Once cured, the fiberglass filler coats were sanded smooth using the feathering disk and usually 80-120 grit on the pad. Inside wood sanding was also done with a disk sander. We used a 7" rubber pad called a Black & Decker "Super Flexible" (which was really rather stiff). This was my least favorite (and most dangerous) part of the process. You had to brace the hull against your body and lean hard enough on the disk to bend the rubber back up pad to fit the interior hull contours. Too much time or pressure in any one spot and you could sand all the way through the wood. Then it was time for the inside glassing, float tanks, gunwales, seats and trim, followed by varnishing, paint or whatever.

    All in all, it was a very different experience from what most modern strip canoe builders are doing. Production-style stripping also offers multiple opportunities to turn out something really sloppy, so the craftsmanship (or not) is up to the builder. By the time bead and cove showed up, I was already really bored with building strippers and had moved on to other interests.

    An 18' Hazen Nanaimo double kayak. An outdated design by today's standards, but pretty. Built as deck and hull and then seamed inside and out, so you have continuous wood with no internal sheer clamps or other structure needed. You just need to make two halves which are the same length and width everywhere, so that they'll fit together. That's the tricky part.

    Nanaimo.jpg

    My 22' fur trade canoe wearing its original cosmetics.

    rbig1.jpg

    Current cosmetics. Not bad for a boat over 40 years old.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Why quarter sawn preferred for strip canoe ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I am more than sold on traditional building. Clinker Plank and rib for canoes, clinker or rivet and rove for lapstrake make me smile, strips and fiberglass make me frown. At this point in time, the only epoxy I want to use is for smaller things like laminations and maybe if I ever built plywood glued lapstrake but I'm soooo done with cloth and strips!

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    I'm not particular. I'm currently teaching Skin-On-Frame construction, lapstrake ply, have done cedar strip and fiberglass as well as traditional cedar-and canvas build and repair work. They all have their ups and downs and proponents and detractors. Build the boat you want to build.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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