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Thread: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Tesla's Elon Musk is complaining to President Donald Trump about China's car tariffs on Twitter.
    "Do you think the US & China should have equal & fair rules for cars? Meaning, same import duties, ownership constraints & other factors," Musk said in response to a Trump tweet about trade with China. "I am against import duties in general, but the current rules make things very difficult. It's like competing in an Olympic race wearing lead shoes."

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    The time for this was yeas ago when countries were dumping steel in the USA at ridiculous prices. Then a tariff could have done some good. Most of the mills this would help are already closed.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    Democrats have just lost the rust belt.

    This is the end of democrats ever having the white house again.

    Trump is for our workers.

    Promise made promise kept.

    This is wha t winning looks like.
    This is what getting screwed looks like. Just as Trump has done with workers he contracted with. Trumps promises are a pile of conflicting words and inconsistant ideas. Your common man, blue collar worker, honest Murican will suffer. Trump makes sh!t up. Remember the most recent? “Get the guns, due process later”?

    read the study bobbs

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ariffs/554660/

    Plus, the tariffs will invite retaliatory actions that could hit a huge number of American exporters. “Every time you do this, you get a retaliation, and agriculture is the number one target. I think this is terribly counterproductive,” Senator Pat Roberts, a Kansas Republican, told reporters on Thursday. There are numbers to back this economic case up: A study of a similar trade actions taken by the George W. Bush administration found that they cost the economy an estimated 200,000 jobs, including roughly 11,000 in Ohio, 10,000 in Michigan, 10,000 in Illinois, and 8,000 in Pennsylvania.

    Trump’s “smart” trade action, then, might spark a trade war, hurt the auto industry, bleed jobs from the Rust Belt, and anger American allies around the world. A small number of companies and workers stand to benefit, but a far larger number are now at risk.

    http://www.tradepartnership.com/pdf_...02jobstudy.pdf

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Adams View Post
    The time for this was yeas ago when countries were dumping steel in the USA at ridiculous prices. Then a tariff could have done some good. Most of the mills this would help are already closed.
    While I believe that was a good time for tariffs, one must also remember that the US steel companies insisted on using open hearth furnaces well after more efficient processes were used elsewhere in the world.

    There was confluence of conditions back then. US businesses for some reason did not take what turned out to be the right path.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    While I believe that was a good time for tariffs, one must also remember that the US steel companies insisted on using open hearth furnaces well after more efficient processes were used elsewhere in the world.

    There was confluence of conditions back then. US businesses for some reason did not take what turned out to be the right path.
    its more complex than that


    • the life of a steel mill is around a half century or so and the cost of building a new one is very very high with some significant restrictions on location
    • the u.s. invested in new steel mills in the lead up to and during wwii using existing technologies
    • much of the world built new steel mils in the fifties and sixties, using american technology and often built with american money (especially in the case of japan)
    • when it became clear that the u.s. was behind the technology and production efficiency and quality curve, our economy was in the midst of a steep downturn that last more than a decade (1974 to 1985) during such a downturn there is little money nor will to invest in long term capital intense projects that are deemed risky, such as steel mills.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    its more complex than that


    • the life of a steel mill is around a half century or so and the cost of building a new one is very very high with some significant restrictions on location
    • the u.s. invested in new steel mills in the lead up to and during wwii using existing technologies
    • much of the world built new steel mils in the fifties and sixties, using american technology and often built with american money (especially in the case of japan)
    • when it became clear that the u.s. was behind the technology and production efficiency and quality curve, our economy was in the midst of a steep downturn that last more than a decade (1974 to 1985) during such a downturn there is little money nor will to invest in long term capital intense projects that are deemed risky, such as steel mills.
    Well said, Paul



    Rick

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    [FONT="]Tesla's Elon Musk is complaining to President Donald Trump about China's car tariffs on Twitter.[/FONT]
    "Do you think the US & China should have equal & fair rules for cars? Meaning, same import duties, ownership constraints & other factors," Musk said in response to a Trump tweet about trade with China. "I am against import duties in general, but the current rules make things very difficult. It's like competing in an Olympic race wearing lead shoes."
    Musk is complaining about the difficulty of making his cars in China, which he wants to do.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    While I believe that was a good time for tariffs, one must also remember that the US steel companies insisted on using open hearth furnaces well after more efficient processes were used elsewhere in the world.

    There was confluence of conditions back then. US businesses for some reason did not take what turned out to be the right path.
    Nucor is the largest U.S. steelmaker today. It developed an electric-melt process in 1968, using scrap in a continuous rolling process, which dramatically changed the global industry.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    its more complex than that


    • the life of a steel mill is around a half century or so and the cost of building a new one is very very high with some significant restrictions on location
    • the u.s. invested in new steel mills in the lead up to and during wwii using existing technologies
    • much of the world built new steel mils in the fifties and sixties, using american technology and often built with american money (especially in the case of japan)
    • when it became clear that the u.s. was behind the technology and production efficiency and quality curve, our economy was in the midst of a steep downturn that last more than a decade (1974 to 1985) during such a downturn there is little money nor will to invest in long term capital intense projects that are deemed risky, such as steel mills.
    Oh... sure... like us Stable Genius Investors need all them DETAILS before we leap to our faulty conclusions.
    David G
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  10. #150
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    its more complex than that


    • the life of a steel mill is around a half century or so and the cost of building a new one is very very high with some significant restrictions on location
    • the u.s. invested in new steel mills in the lead up to and during wwii using existing technologies
    • much of the world built new steel mils in the fifties and sixties, using american technology and often built with american money (especially in the case of japan)
    • when it became clear that the u.s. was behind the technology and production efficiency and quality curve, our economy was in the midst of a steep downturn that last more than a decade (1974 to 1985) during such a downturn there is little money nor will to invest in long term capital intense projects that are deemed risky, such as steel mills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Nucor is the largest U.S. steelmaker today. It developed an electric-melt process in 1968, using scrap in a continuous rolling process, which dramatically changed the global industry.
    I knew all of that. The details of why seemed to be off topic to my comments.

    Looking at history presents a much different view than looking at the future.
    Life is complex.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    If tariffs on steel make sense, so would tariffs on imported oil.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    If tariffs on steel make sense, so would tariffs on imported oil.
    Heck yeah! We need to support the domestic oil industry from that cheap foreign oil.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    And the market went up 440 today based on the jobs report, of course if you're on the left it's not worth discussion.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And the market went up 440 today based on the jobs report, of course if you're on the left it's not worth discussion.
    I figure 10%/year is a reasonable return for the stock market. That amounts to about 2% for this year to date. The Dow is up 2.5%. The S&P500 is up 4.2%. The NASDAQ is up 9.5%. (Plus dividends.) Life is tough.

    I see the normal noise in the markets. And the normal signal - 10% annualized.
    Life is complex.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Tariffs on imported cars as well; plus imported underwear--the stuff that creates jobs.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And the market went up 440 today based on the jobs report, of course if you're on the left it's not worth discussion.
    It’s certainly worth discussion. There are many reasons for today’s good news; a recovering oil and gas market, an improvement in the European economy resulting in the purchase of more U.S. goods, a weaker U.S. dollar and that huge corporate tax cut. Trump can take credit for number four...and maybe number three. However, I believe today’s bounce back on Dow Jones is an overall sense of relief that Trump backed away (at least temporarily) on many of the proposed steel and aluminium tariffs. According to today’s figures from the Labor Department, the greatest job growth in the U.S. economy in the past year has been in metal fabrication. If the tariffs had gone ahead that sector could have been decimated. I don’t want to downplay the creation of more than 300,000 jobs. I think that’s terrific. But a trade war just when your economy is running again on all eight cylinders just seems wacky.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And the market went up 440 today based on the jobs report, of course if you're on the left it's not worth discussion.
    .

    Did norm miss this?.

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Puttputt View Post
    It’s certainly worth discussion. There are many reasons for today’s good news; a recovering oil and gas market, an improvement in the European economy resulting in the purchase of more U.S. goods, a weaker U.S. dollar and that huge corporate tax cut. Trump can take credit for number four...and maybe number three. However, I believe today’s bounce back on Dow Jones is an overall sense of relief that Trump backed away (at least temporarily) on many of the proposed steel and aluminium tariffs. According to today’s figures from the Labor Department, the greatest job growth in the U.S. economy in the past year has been in metal fabrication. If the tariffs had gone ahead that sector could have been decimated. I don’t want to downplay the creation of more than 300,000 jobs. I think that’s terrific. But a trade war just when your economy is running again on all eight cylinders just seems wacky.
    I think you are correct, the exemptions are coming and every little bit helps.
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    David G
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Musk is complaining about the difficulty of making his cars in China, which he wants to do.
    Its more than likely that he'd make cars in China to supply the "outside USA market", and make them domestically for inside. China being a member of the TPP group and the USA not, would give him competitive access to a trading block with a huge potential market.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Adams View Post
    The time for this was yeas ago when countries were dumping steel in the USA at ridiculous prices. Then a tariff could have done some good. Most of the mills this would help are already closed.
    Just so. And here's a bit about the history --

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ound-to-europe
    David G
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    And the exceptions keep rolling in…………………….
    I wonder what will be left in the final legislation……..if there is any

    Distractions again.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Just so. And here's a bit about the history --

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ound-to-europe
    protectionism makes for crappy products. IIRC in the 60’s Huffy managed to get politicians to put through a tariff on imported bicycles, or maybe components. Anyway the result was that American components were comparative crap.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    And the exceptions keep rolling in…………………….
    I wonder what will be left in the final legislation……..if there is any

    Distractions again.
    but distractions from what? More of a celebration of incompetance and decay.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    The graph of S&P500 annualized returns for 30 year periods I usually show only goes back to the 1926-1956 interval. The intervals that include both the "Great Depression" and WWII had annualized returns above 6.8%. The returns for the intervals that include the "Great Recession" are above 10%. It is simply not true that day to day policy decisions or economic data have a measurable effect on business.

    Both the "Great Depression" and the "Great Recession" had other effects, but day to day market noise affects few.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    but distractions from what? More of a celebration of incompetance and decay.
    Any time Donald is on the front page and not anyone else he wins.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    TOP STORIES



    1. Trump, Turnbull hit on deal to exclude Australia from new US tariffs

      Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull confirms Australia will be exempt from US President Donald Trump's new steel and aluminium tariffs, but denies the two leaders are working towards a new "security agreement".

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Trump and Turnbull are cozy
    By contrast we have Britain, as it labors under the consequence of having surrendered the sovereign prerogative to Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...trump-tariffs/

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    By contrast we have Britain, as it labors under the consequence of having surrendered the sovereign prerogative to Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...trump-tariffs/
    From that Torygraph piece
    The bad blood would be exacerbated by the fact the EU intervened in Britain’s behalf in the recent Bombardier tariff row with the US.
    Cake and eating it?
    In a "worst case scenario” the EU was prepared to take the US to the WTO court and was talking to other countries, such as Japan, to enlist their support, he said.
    Mr Katainen, a former prime minister of Finland, said that the whole EU should be exempt from the tariffs because European companies had not flooded the US market with cheap steel and aluminium and because both sides were “natural allies”.
    But he rejected any suggestion of the US being allowed to use NATO spending of individual countries as leverage in talks, pointing out NATO and the EU were two separate organisations.
    “This is not a trade negotiation,” he told reporters, “we are talking about unilateral action against international rules and we want to sort it out before it becomes a problem”.
    Fortunately Dolt 45 will have forgotten all about it by next week.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  32. #172
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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Remember ‘Global Britain’? All those trade deals Liam Fox was going to sign once free from the tyranny of Brussels? How UKIP’s friend Donald Trump was going to put plucky Britain at the front of the queue, having watched the films Dunkirk and Darkest Hour? All that just died when Trump slapped a 25% tariff on UK steel imports and announced that ‘trade wars are good’ and he would win them.
    This is a humiliation for Theresa May, not only because Trade War Trump is unlikely to be doing deals of value to Britain, but because, having decided on his trade war, he went out of his way to do down Britain.
    Trump was presented with two options. The first was for a 53% tariff on just 12 countries. This would have targeted the main culprits for ‘dumping’ lower-priced steel on the US, and avoided hitting US allies.
    Instead, Trump went for an across-the-board 25% tariff, hitting Britain, even neighbouring Canada, equally. And this despite a beseeching personal phone call from May.
    Why did he do this? It is easier to ‘police’ a single tariff on all imports. It avoids discrimination arguments in the WTO. It also makes a more dramatic gesture for a president who deals in little else. What about the ‘special relationship’ with the UK? Strip away the warm Churchillian words – not many of those pass Trump’s lips anyway – and the essential US interest is in defence co-operation. Trump figures correctly that given the huge US commitment to NATO, Britain won’t fall out of line. It is a master-servant relationship, and we are the servant.
    For Britain, steel exports worth nearly £400 million a year are at stake. It’s now touch and go whether our steel industry will survive, and Britain’s vulnerability to capricious trade bullying by the US has been demonstrated cruelly.
    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/home...dent-1-5424806
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ...
    Take your pick:

    1) a bunch of school kids who feel so abused by others acting in their behalf.

    2) a bunch of rich adults complaining how other rich adults have more.

    They will work it out.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Take your pick:

    1) a bunch of school kids who feel so abused by others acting in their behalf.

    2) a bunch of rich adults complaining how other rich adults have more.

    They will work it out.
    Hits the little Englanders and the Reece Moggs off to a tee.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs.... the market drops 500 pts

    This is why I suggest that the tariffs strengthen the hand of JRM and the other hard Brexiteers. When the sales fall and the job losses pile up, the reason will be that Britain yet still remains in the EU, instead of being free of it and able to partner with sister nations, precisely as Australia has done.

    We may yet see a carriage ride before it is all said and done.

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