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Thread: Spira boat design help

  1. #1
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    Default Spira boat design help

    Hi guys,

    I am new to the forum and already read a couple of threads.

    I am looking to build my first wooden boat myself. As a hobby woodworker I do have all woodworking tools and some experience building furniture.

    The Spira International boat designs are great and I like them a lot.

    I live near Lake Norman in NC (close to Charlotte). The boat will be used 98% on the lake. I we do a vacation on the coast, I want to be able to take the boat with us and use it in saltwater. This would manly be in channels and not out in the open salt water.

    My goal is to have 4 adults and 2 kids on the boat.

    I was looking at the 19' Hatteras and the 19' Albion.

    It looks to me that space wise, the Albion would have more spare. But the Albion also has a flat bottom. The Hatteras is a V-Hull with a little less space.

    I would probably use a 40-50HP motor with it and use a center console.

    Any advice?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    The Hatteras, all day long. Even in a small chop, a flat-bottom speed boat will rattle the teeth out of your head when underway at anything above 5 mph. Directional stability is better in a cross-wind in a vee-bottom boat, turns are more precise and predictable, and they lay to a mooring or anchor better. On the other hand, flat-bottom boats are easier to build.

    But that's just my opinion, and everybody knows what opinions are like... <grin>
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Jeff's pangas are nice as well.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I saw the 19' Panga called Quintana. Unfortunately the 19' version is over 19' long, this will not fit in my garage to build it.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    The 19' Albion with a v hull. This would be the best solution for me I think.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    The Hatteras, all day long. Even in a small chop, a flat-bottom speed boat will rattle the teeth out of your head when underway at anything above 5 mph. Directional stability is better in a cross-wind in a vee-bottom boat, turns are more precise and predictable, and they lay to a mooring or anchor better. On the other hand, flat-bottom boats are easier to build.

    But that's just my opinion, and everybody knows what opinions are like... <grin>
    building the boat is not a issue for me. If flat or V bottom, i don't really care about the amount of work for building it.

    Like I said, main goal is to get 4 adults, 2 kids on there comfortably. The Albion is a little wider, thats why I still keep it in mind.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I think the Albion would be good choice for size but as mmd mentioned flat boats ride rough in lake wind chop. Never been in a flat bottom boat on the ocean but I can't imagine it would be any smoother.

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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    The Hatteras, all day long. Even in a small chop, a flat-bottom speed boat will rattle the teeth out of your head when underway at anything above 5 mph. Directional stability is better in a cross-wind in a vee-bottom boat, turns are more precise and predictable, and they lay to a mooring or anchor better. On the other hand, flat-bottom boats are easier to build.

    But that's just my opinion, and everybody knows what opinions are like... <grin>
    Yes... bellybuttons. Some inny, some outty, mostly ignored, but a few... very beautiful.
    David G
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Have you looked at Sam Devlins Candlefish 18. cool boat.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Do you think that I could build the 19' Hatteras but make it 8ft wide instead of 7ft wide?
    Looks like the Hatteras has higher sides as well which would help with kids.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    One of the wise ones will have to tell you for sure but I don't think that would be to easy at all.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Sure, you can do that but, assuming you are building the Hatteras which I agree is better for your purpose.

    Other things will also change. If you keep the bottom beam the same, there will be a lot more flare meaning all new frames and side panels.

    If the side flare is kept the same, the bottom beam will increase, meaning either the draft will change and/or the bottom deadrise will change.

    If you increase all station section measurements proportionally, everything will change.

    In other words you will have a different boat. Might or might not be a good boat but it requires some thinking about what is happening. The Hatteras looks big enough for the loads you want as Jeff designed it.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Wow ok i didnt thought about all that. This is very helpful. Thank you Tom!
    In that case, I would not make any changes. I want to make sure the boat will run as its suppose to once Im done building it.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Yes, you can build a plywood boat a foot wider than the plans call for, but it would change just about everything about the boat (displacement, centre of bouyancy, planing geometry, etc) and is probably the hardest change to build without revised plans, so you end up with basically an unknown boat that requires some pretty good boatbuilding chops to accomplish. But you could do it.

    Sorry to be so blunt, but widening a plywood planing boat without fully understanding the impact of those changes on performance and seaworthiness is not a good idea. I strongly advise that you select a boat plan that suits your needs, and build it exactly to the plans. The build will go smoothly, costs won't escalate, and performance will be as predicted.

    If you really do want that boat but want it wider, contact the designer and ask him to modify the design for you. This probably won't be inexpensive. If the original designer is unavailable, approach another designer familiar with plywood planing hulls to make the changes for you.

    A poorly designed planing hull can become unstable at surprisingly low speed, and can become uncontrollable or capsize. It is very easy to die having fun, so please do everything you can to make your family safe and follow the plans.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Thank you. I probably wont go through that struggle. The one design from the other is really only 9" wider and I dont think I it worth doing a change in the plans for that.

    Any other tips on the Vhull 19' Hatteras?

    I will use is as a family boat. Explore the lake, anchor and have fun with the kids. Maybe throw a tube behind it at some point.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I think the Hatteras will be a pleasing boat to build and to enjoy with your family. Build it carefully and you will get more compliments at the lake than any three 'glass boats, and you will have more satisfaction owning it than if you had merely wrote a cheque to a dealer.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by mike88 View Post
    Thank you. I probably wont go through that struggle. The one design from the other is really only 9" wider and I dont think I it worth doing a change in the plans for that.

    Any other tips on the Vhull 19' Hatteras?

    I will use is as a family boat. Explore the lake, anchor and have fun with the kids. Maybe throw a tube behind it at some point.
    It has been 40 years since I sailed on Lake Norman or Lake Wiley and both are probably much more developed around the shore now. The Hatteras will make a very nice boat for both SC and NC coastal activities in the Intracoastal Waterway, bays and sounds. As an open boat, distances would likely be somewhat restricted to areas close to home base but, even so, plenty room is available for meandering over some really beautiful water.

    Michael alluded to but didn't expressly address why a planing boat design is more critical than a slower, displacement one. Most any piece of wood will float in displacement mode, although a good boat still takes design ability recognizing all the pertinent rules and ratios. A planing boat is a different animal and operates in an entirely different arena where dynamics takes precedence over the statics of a displacement boat. Really good planing boats are not all that plentiful even among all the many, many thousands of such boats out there. In fact, I consider them a fairly rare breed.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Spira designed the Albion for Pacific offshore fishing, so it will be comfortable enough for most of your family's daytime outings on lakes and channels.
    It is also more suitable for beaching.
    I think that your growing family would be happy on this boat.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Have you seen this vid of the Albion on the water?....he also has his whole build on the preceding vids.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPVXM2KxdXE

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    It would be Hatteras for me. You say you have room to build a 19' boat but not a 19'3" boat? Kinda makes me wonder if you have room to build a 19 footer. Exactly how big is your space if I may ask? Also, I'm guessing you could find a way to loose 3 inches off the Panga Quintana if you'd really prefer the wider boat.
    Last edited by JimD; 02-27-2018 at 11:52 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Not to take away from here.. but Spira is a regular posting member on the FB group.
    http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_hatt.php




    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Thank you all for your comments. This really helps me to make a decision.

    I will definitely go with a V-hull.

    Regarding the space in my garage. I always have the garage open when I build projects (means I can pull it out a bit) but it has to fit in there when the garage is closed.

    If I have to decide between Vhull boats. There is the 19" Hatteras and the 19" Quintana. The Quintana is a wide panga which would give me almost 8ft width.
    What I like about the Quintana is that on the Study plans, it also looks wider towards the bow. This would be more space.

    Any comments if I have to decide between these two? I think the Quintana would give me more space. But other than that, from what I see, they look pretty comparable.

    Any ideas?

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by seadog99 View Post
    Have you seen this vid of the Albion on the water?....he also has his whole build on the preceding vids.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPVXM2KxdXE
    Yes, I already watched the whole series. Really entertaining.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Any comments from you guys on the 19' Hatteras versus the 19' Quintana?

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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quintana for size, Hatteras for looks. Does that help?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    It would probably be a fine boat, too. I understand why not published, but it would be nice to see a lines plan, or at least multiple sections of these hulls.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Not very helpful in making a decision, but Hatteras looks more like a panga than the panga. 'Wide panga' is a bit oxymoronic, no? Here's lines more indicative of the panga type.

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I guess that helps a little bit.
    They both have a Vhull which is great.
    I was just wondering about performance in the water, but I understand that this might be hard to find out...
    And I like the Quintana wide panga from the looks. It definitely helps that its wider towards the bow.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by mike88 View Post
    I guess that helps a little bit.
    They both have a Vhull which is great.
    I was just wondering about performance in the water, but I understand that this might be hard to find out...
    And I like the Quintana wide panga from the looks. It definitely helps that its wider towards the bow.
    mmd is a pro naval architect so I would take his advice above just about any other. My poorly educated guess is that Hatteras will move a little more easily through the water, even though that is what the narrow panga type was originally meant to do, and that even though Quintana might be a more stable platform there's a limit to how much stability is practical to have and that Hatteras will give you all you need to keep your family safe.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Wider in the bow will certainly be advantageous for room aboard. The down-side, which is not a big difference, is that a broader beam in the bow sections will usually mean a bit rougher ride in a chop (all things being equal). However, given where you say you will be boating, this should not make a big difference to your comfort.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I asked Spira for information on the differences between the Hatteras and the Quintana.

    His answer:
    The Quintana is roomier than the Hatteras, but it is also a deep V while the Hatteras is a variable V.
    The Hatteras takes less power, is more statically stable (trolling or stopped) but the Quintana takes more power, can be driver faster at sea or in a blow, (more dynamically stable) and is a bit more expensive to build.


    Any comments in regards to his answer?
    I understood Deep V hull versus Variable V and that this has to do with stability.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    I agree with Mr. Spira's answer, with the caveat that without seeing the sections of the boats in question for comparison, I can't say how strongly I agree with him. From the website illustrations, the Quintana does seem to have deeper vee sections than the Hatteras, but I can't tell quantitatively how much deeper.

    Do not mistake the phrase "Quintana takes more power, can be driven faster at sea or in a blow..." to mean that it is literally faster than the Hatteras. Because it is a deeper-vee hull, it is less efficient as a planning hull, so therefore takes more power to achieve the same speed as the lesser-vee'd Hattera hull. But, deeper vee hulls handle steep chop better than shallow-vee hulls, so are able to maintain a speed in rougher waters that would see the shallow-vee hulls pounding the fillings out of your teeth and the wife screaming to be taken home. Also, because of the deeper vee hullform, the Quintana will retain directional stability (ability to be able to be steered effectively) better than the Hattera, so with adequate horsepower may be able to safely operate at higher speed than the Hatteras.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Did you ask about how much hp is recommended for Quintana v Hatteras? Haven't seen many 19'x8' deep vees with 40-50 hp. Usually its more like twice that. At least.
    Last edited by JimD; 03-02-2018 at 12:11 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    In Spira's Study plans it says recommended HP for both boats is 75HP.
    I was probably going in with a 50HP.

    My only really concern is that the Hatteras wont have enough space for 6 people because of the narrower in the front.
    Does anybody here build or saw a Hatteras live and could tell me something about that?

    Like mmd said before, there are not really details drawings (which I understand as well) to see how wide it actually is.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Spira boat design help

    Quote Originally Posted by mike88 View Post
    In Spira's Study plans it says recommended HP for both boats is 75HP.
    I was probably going in with a 50HP.

    My only really concern is that the Hatteras wont have enough space for 6 people because of the narrower in the front.
    Does anybody here build or saw a Hatteras live and could tell me something about that?

    Like mmd said before, there are not really details drawings (which I understand as well) to see how wide it actually is.

    Most of the Spira study drawings have the beam measurement. Couldn't you just scale it from there?

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