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Thread: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

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    Default Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Anyone got stats on how often a good guy with a gun actually stops a bad guy with a gun?
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Very hard to get, doesn't tend to make the news. I have 2 instances personally as most here know.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    shirly you jest
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    shirly you jest
    You've heard the story....and don't call me Shirley.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    that was meant for john
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    that was meant for john
    OK....shouldn't you be working on a bathroom?
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    The NRA would be screaming that number from every rooftop, if it wasn't a load of BS.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    At the Virginia tech shooting, a number of students went out to their cars, got their guns and shot the perp.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    At the Virginia tech shooting, a number of students went out to their cars, got their guns and shot the perp.
    eh? Cho shot himself in the head
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    I believe the back page of "The Rifleman " has a few stories every month.
    Been a decade since Ive seen a copy, my lifetime member friend die.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    BS.

    There was an armed guard at Columbine. There was an armed guard at Parkland. Hell, Reagan was absolutely surrounded by guys with guns and look all the good it did him.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Yes. Didn't happen in Florida.


    As Gunman Rampaged Through Florida School, Armed Deputy ‘Never Went In’

    The surveillance video, which was not released, showed Deputy Peterson remained outside the west side of the building for at least four minutes while the gunman was inside, according to Sheriff Israel. The shooting rampage at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School lasted less than six minutes. The video was corroborated by witness statements, Sheriff Israel said.

    The New York Times reported on Wednesday that an officer from the Coral Springs Police Department who responded to the shooting had seen Deputy Peterson in a Stoneman Douglas High parking lot. The deputy “was seeking cover behind a concrete column leading to a stairwell,” Officer Tim Burton said.

    Didn't happen at Columbine, either.


    What Really Happened At Columbine?

    Art teacher Patty Nielson was on hall duty just inside the west doors when she saw Eric Harris. She ran inside and called 911. The dispatcher told her that help was on the way.

    Police were at the school right away. Within five minutes of the first shots fired, the sheriff's deputy assigned to work at the school was in the west parking lot. He exchanged gunfire with Harris who retreated into the school. That deputy was soon joined by six other policemen who took positions around the building. None of them entered the school, where Harris and Klebold were heading toward the library, shooting in the halls and throwing bombs into the cafeteria below. They walked into the library and began shooting students.

    Among those killed there was Sophomore Kelly Fleming. Her parents, Don and DeeDee, say that the police should have entered the school earlier.

    "There was no one in that school that had a gun other than the two killers," says DeeDee. "And no one pursued them. No one tried to engage them."

    "For almost 20 minutes she waited. Twenty minutes, that's a long time for someone to have the opportunity to come in and make a difference."
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Yes. Didn't happen in Florida.

    As Gunman Rampaged Through Florida School, Armed Deputy ‘Never Went In’

    The surveillance video, which was not released, showed Deputy Peterson remained outside the west side of the building for at least four minutes while the gunman was inside, according to Sheriff Israel. The shooting rampage at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School lasted less than six minutes. The video was corroborated by witness statements, Sheriff Israel said.

    The New York Times reported on Wednesday that an officer from the Coral Springs Police Department who responded to the shooting had seen Deputy Peterson in a Stoneman Douglas High parking lot. The deputy “was seeking cover behind a concrete column leading to a stairwell,” Officer Tim Burton said.

    Didn't happen at Columbine, either.

    What Really Happened At Columbine?

    Art teacher Patty Nielson was on hall duty just inside the west doors when she saw Eric Harris. She ran inside and called 911. The dispatcher told her that help was on the way.

    Police were at the school right away. Within five minutes of the first shots fired, the sheriff's deputy assigned to work at the school was in the west parking lot. He exchanged gunfire with Harris who retreated into the school. That deputy was soon joined by six other policemen who took positions around the building. None of them entered the school, where Harris and Klebold were heading toward the library, shooting in the halls and throwing bombs into the cafeteria below. They walked into the library and began shooting students.

    Among those killed there was Sophomore Kelly Fleming. Her parents, Don and DeeDee, say that the police should have entered the school earlier.

    "There was no one in that school that had a gun other than the two killers," says DeeDee. "And no one pursued them. No one tried to engage them."

    "For almost 20 minutes she waited. Twenty minutes, that's a long time for someone to have the opportunity to come in and make a difference."
    "Didn't happen in Florida."... ? please explain, I thought the Florida Parkland shooter Nikolas Cruz was arrested... ? by an un-armed policeman? Citizen's arrest?

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    BS.

    There was an armed guard at Columbine. There was an armed guard at Parkland. Hell, Reagan was absolutely surrounded by guys with guns and look all the good it did him.
    DoNald and the NRA want to normalize a militarized war zone America.

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...mpression=true

    One day after President Trump suggested arming America's teachers to prevent school shootings, Scot Peterson, a sheriff's deputy assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, resigned amid an investigation into why he neglected to enter the building during the deadly rampage or engage with the shooter.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    A better question might be how often does a good guy with a gun fail to stop a bad guy with a gun? It is certain that there have been instances where good guys have stopped bad guys, but if the pro-gun side is using those few examples to support their position, it would be useful to know the "failure rate" of the supposed solution. If that rate is 80% or 90% then the few examples of a positive outcome are hardly persuasive.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Donald knows what is needed.

    Walls.

    Walls around every school.

    Build the walls Donald.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    A better question might be how often does a good guy with a gun fail to stop a bad guy with a gun? It is certain that there have been instances where good guys have stopped bad guys, but if the pro-gun side is using those few examples to support their position, it would be useful to know the "failure rate" of the supposed solution. If that rate is 80% or 90% then the few examples of a positive outcome are hardly persuasive.
    The NRA and the cowards in Congress who kowtow to the NRA have effectively blocked any study of how guns are used and mis-used. Therefore, there is no good information of how many times a good guy with a gun has stopped a bad guy with a gun, or how many times a good guy with a gun has not stopped a bad guy, or how many times a good guy with a gun has injured another good guy, or how many times an innocent person has been hurt or killed by an ignorant, incompetent guy with a gun, or . . .

    From the Washington Post, October 4, 2017, Todd C. Frankel:

    Gun-control research in the United States essentially came to a standstill in 1996. After 21 years, the science is stale.

    “In the area of what works to prevent shootings, we know almost nothing,” Mark Rosenberg, who, in the mid-1990s, led the CDC's gun-violence research efforts, said shortly after the San Bernardino shooting in 2015.

    In 1996, the Republican-majority Congress threatened to strip funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless it stopped funding research into firearm injuries and deaths. The National Rifle Association accused the CDC of promoting gun control. As a result, the CDC stopped funding gun-control research — which had a chilling effect far beyond the agency, drying up money for almost all public health studies of the issue nationwide.
    The National Institute of Justice, an arm of the U.S. Department of Justice, funded 32 gun-related studies from 1993 to 1999, but none from 2009 to 2012, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns. The institute then resumed funding in 2013, in the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting the year before. Researchers in search of private funding say they know to avoid the word “gun” or “firearm” in the titles of violence-prevention studies to avoid blowback.
    That hasn't stopped the rallying cry for “common-sense gun control.” But, as Rosenberg pointed out, we don't know what that looks like. Maybe background checks are not the answer. Maybe allowing guns on college campuses makes those places safer. Maybe there is a way to stop a single gunman from killing and wounding hundreds of people at a concert in Las Vegas.
    But, many advocates say, it's impossible to have an honest debate about preventing gun violence when we can't study the issue.
    Be sure to go to the links in the article above.

    ***

    The NRA and those who oppose gun research do so because they are afraid of what the research will show.

    I suspect that good research would show that civilian “good guys” with guns are responsible for many negligent and “accidental” deaths and injuries of innocents., and that such incidents will vastly outnumber the times a civilian “good guy” stops a bad guy.

    I suspect that good research will show that AR-15 and similar weapons are involved in deaths and injuries to innocents far more often than are traditional hunting guns.

    I suspect that good research will show a woeful lack of training by those involved in negligent and “accidental” incidents.

    Of course, a lot of people will say my suspicions are silly and unfounded -- and I say to them, prove me wrong. And they cannot, because the NRA and the cowards in congress have effectively blocked any good research.

    The reason, of course, why the NRA opposes good research is that it knows good research will give the lie to much of the unsupported propaganda it spews.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    And regardless of the number of dead schoolkids.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    scond ammendment doesn't mention guns, in exactly the same way as it fails to mention flame throwers, attack helicopters, nuclear submarines or hunting.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    Studies could provide data that would determine whether new laws are implemented or not, such as RTC.

    States that have enacted right-to-carry (RTC) concealed handgun laws have experienced higher rates of violent crime than states that did not adopt those laws, according to a Stanford scholar.

    Right-to-carry laws are linked with higher violent crime rates according to research by Stanford Law School Professor John Donohue.
    Examining decades of crime data, Stanford Law Professor John Donohue’s analysis shows that violent crime in RTC states was estimated to be 13 to 15 percent higher – over a period of 10 years – than it would have been had the state not adopted the law.
    The working paper, released this week by the National Bureau of Economic Research, challenges the effectiveness of RTC laws and could have a significant impact on pending litigation between the National Rifle Association and the state of California.


    https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21...-carry-states/

    The working paper..
    http://www.nber.org/papers/w23510
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    So for you, it really doesn't matter how many innocent people are killed as a result of uninhibited gun ownership.

    Got it!

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    wow

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    [QUOTE=isla;5488755]Studies could provide data that would determine whether new laws are implemented or not, such as RTC.

    https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21...-carry-states/

    Junk science. It plainly states that they didn’t use actual data, but instead, created ‘synthetic states’ and ‘computer models’. Studies, using real data, have found that concealed carry permit holders commit crime at a lower rate than police. And they don’t try to compare Texas with Wisconsin.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    "Studies, using real data, have found that concealed carry permit holders commit crime at a lower rate than police. And they don’t try to compare Texas with Wisconsin."

    What studies ?.
    Rob J.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    There is no constitutional right that precludes reasonable regulation... and the 'reasonableness' of regulation depends on the need.

    Every person who argues in defense of the 2nd amendment seems to think that it's an absolute right.... it is not.

    I'd say that the wholesale slaughter of children constitutes a need for reasonable regulation. Banning high capacity magazines wouldn't infringe on ANYONE's right to own a gun... but it just might save the lives of some kids.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Junk science. It plainly states that they didn’t use actual data, but instead, created ‘synthetic states’ and ‘computer models’. Studies, using real data, have found that concealed carry permit holders commit crime at a lower rate than police. And they don’t try to compare Texas with Wisconsin.
    On the contrary, actual data was used, and I think you will find that Synthetic Control Methods are pretty well established and widely used.
    https://economics.mit.edu/files/11859

    Furthermore, the synthesis was complemented by actual data from 14 years of studies..

    “All this work is based on statistical models,” Donohue said. “When the models all generate similar estimates, it increases your confidence that you have captured the true effect.”
    Donohue had further reasons for that confidence. Compared to the 2004 report, he was able to study an additional 14 years of crime data and include 11 additional states that adopted RTC laws.
    Somewhere between Murder and Suicide, there is a place called Merseyside.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Don't tread on memes!
    Skip

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    The Second Amendment only gives the right to bear arms if you are in a well regulated militia. It’s the Supreme Court’s unconscionable ruling that gives any idiot in the country the right to own guns.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    What would be gained from such studies? The 2nd Amendment doesn’t give us the right to keep and bear arms as long as the numbers add up acceptably. In fact, it doesn’t give us the right, at all. It states that we have that right already, and this new government shall not, can not, remove it: regardless of science.
    The 1st "states that we have that right already" to free speech. Why then, are you okay with that being regulated? DO you understand why it is?

    See, your rights end where mine begin. Therefor, the government has all the power in the world to make sure people like you don't tread on other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Meaning; going to school without the fear of getting shot. No right is infinite. Sorry about your luck, pal. The 2nd can and will be regulated and all you can do about it is say goodbye to your guns.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    The 1st "states that we have that right already" to free speech. Why then, are you okay with that being regulated? DO you understand why it is?

    See, your rights end where mine begin. Therefor, the government has all the power in the world to make sure people like you don't tread on other's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Meaning; going to school without the fear of getting shot. No right is infinite. Sorry about your luck, pal. The 2nd can and will be regulated and all you can do about it is say goodbye to your guns.
    I would think the NRA, or others, could point to a significant number of cases where a good guy with a gun stopped the bad guy. Of course, we'd also have to know how often the good guy accidentally killed innocents.

    We've heard a great deal of criticism of the armed officer who chose not to go in and confront the shooter. Do we know if he knew how many shooters there were? Hearing the gunshots certainly let him know the shooter/s had automatic weapon/s, and he only had his pistol. Could he tell with any precision where the shooter/s was/were?

    If he had seen the shooter and fired at him, would that not likely have caused the shooter to respond? More dead kids?

    Would his attempt to find and kill the shooter not make it worse?
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    At the Virginia tech shooting, a number of students went out to their cars, got their guns and shot the perp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    eh? Cho shot himself in the head
    I stand corrected. I'd heard a commentator on the radio state my version. It's clearly wrong.

    The truth bolsters my basic thinking.

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    eh? Cho shot himself in the head
    The armed bad guy turned into an armed good guy.
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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    And when they police come what's there to think they are good guys with a gun, they're shooting at? How do they tell the difference? Do they wear vests with "I'M a member of the NRA and a good guy, don't shoot me!" Your thought mdh!

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    Default Re: Armed good guy stops armed bad guy; how often?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    A better question might be how often does a good guy with a gun fail to stop a bad guy with a gun? It is certain that there have been instances where good guys have stopped bad guys, but if the pro-gun side is using those few examples to support their position, it would be useful to know the "failure rate" of the supposed solution. If that rate is 80% or 90% then the few examples of a positive outcome are hardly persuasive.
    nearly all experts agree, the best way to stop a active shooter is by attacking that person in some way, hence the fight or flight recomendations from security experts.

    most active shooter situations are "over" within 5 minutes, average Police response time 6-8 minutes...

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