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Thread: Tipping Point

  1. #1
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    Default Tipping Point

    OK I may be completely wrong but I'm sensing a tipping point. I hear ANGER from people about this last shooting. It's one of those times when all of a sudden things flip. Like with Gay Marriage, for years it was NO WAY IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN. Then one day it just happened.

    I'm hearing a deafening outrage this time around. Sad that Sandy Hook wasn't the straw that broke the back of the NRA lobby but I get a feeling it's coming. After that, maybe decent, intelligent gun laws and reform will finally be possible.

    Somehow this time I'm feeling hopeful even amidst this silly administration.

    Does anyone get the same vibe ?
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    I hope you're right, but I have come to believe a great many people aren't capable of seeing beyond what they are told. I sincerely hope you are right.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Some new laws might be made but guns will not be taken away. There is no way to do it.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    I hope you’re right Joe. But for anything to change, lawmakers have to be willing to give up millions of dollars in donations which means they won’t get elected again. I’m not holding my breath.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    2018 Midterms might be sending that much needed message.
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Nothing will happen. There are too many people out there that think the 2nd amendment gives them permission to have and hold any firearm that they deem necessary. So few people understand the one principal that is the glue of our constitution and our civilization; your rights end where mine begin. This principal and this principal alone should lead our law makers to outright banning most firearms.

    A very scary fact is, for many people, their AR is the most expensive thing they own, it's literally the entirety of their personal wealth. If the government is allowed to simply take that, what will they retire on?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Nothing will happen. There are too many people out there that think the 2nd amendment gives them permission to have and hold any firearm that they deem necessary. So few people understand the one principal that is the glue of our constitution and our civilization; your rights end where mine begin. This principal and this principal alone should lead our law makers to outright banning most firearms.

    A very scary fact is, to many people, their AR is the most expensive thing they own, it's literally the entirety of their personal wealth. If the government is allowed to simply take that, what will they retire on?
    Actually McMike I disagree I think there are more of us ( me ) and younger me's that are tipping the scale. Just like no one would ever think in my dad's generation in the 50's that two men could legally get married in the US, but in my generation they can now, and it happened fast. That's why I'm talking a tipping point. I think we might be on it with this issue now.

    A generiouse buyback program will take many of those who need more than an AR-15 to retire on
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Anger AND disgust are building. And it is not just over the gun issue.

    My guess? In 2018 38% will vote for a Republican versus ANY Democrat.

    But I think the middle-class suburban Republicans (particularly females)and Independents (of both sexes) will largely vote differently in 2018 than they did in 2016.
    War is peace.
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Anger AND disgust are building. And it is not just over the gun issue.

    My guess? In 2018 38% will vote for a Republican versus ANY Democrat.

    But I think the middle-class suburban Republicans (particularly females)and Independents (of both sexes) will largely vote differently in 2018 than they did in 2016.
    Many people in the know seem to be very concerned that Russian interference may upset the 2018 elections. And we are doing absolutely nothing to prevent it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    A generiouse buyback program will take many of those who need more than an AR-15 to retire on
    At $500 to $1000, an AR-15 would be a very short retirement.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    The inaction following Sandy Hook broke me. My disdain for hoplophiles became permanent.

    One would like to think there would be a tipping point, Joe. But I doubt it. Not until progressives take over all three branches of government.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Actually McMike I disagree I think there are more of us ( me ) and younger me's that are tipping the scale. Just like no one would ever think in my dad's generation in the 50's that two men could legally get married in the US, but in my generation they can now, and it happened fast. That's why I'm talking a tipping point. I think we might be on it with this issue now.

    A generiouse buyback program will take many of those who need more than an AR-15 to retire on
    A person could just as easily have done the same amount of damage with a pistol, it's not about AR-15s, stop making it about AR-15s, it makes you sound ignorant. This is simply about firearm proliferation, our country's lack of maturity, and it's aversion to thoughtfulness. None of these things are curable within the foreseeable future.

    My solution; the feds should take the authority of making laws surrounding firearms away from states. It should track every gun from when it comes off the assembly line to when it is melted down for scrap. If a firearm is used in committing a violent act, life in prison. If a gun owner is negligent and that negligence results in someone else getting hurt or killed, mandatory 10 year sentence, even if it's their child, heck, especially if it's their child who was hurt or killed. We just had a 15 year old in a nearby town die because his friend's father left his shotgun out and they decided to play Russian roulette. Also, ban all semi and full-auto, magazine fed firearms. Leaving revolvers and bolt-action, break open and lever-action to hunters and carry permit holders. There must be two locks on a gun at all times unless it's on your body. A locked case or safe and a trigger lock. Give doctors the power to revoke permits and have police confiscate weapons.

    Upside to gun owners, after they are registered and permitted, they can take their firearm to any state.
    Last edited by McMike; 02-16-2018 at 08:15 PM.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    It's easier to track a bag of lettuce than a gun. In fact a gun is probably the most difficult product to track. This is by law. Check out that gq article.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by john l View Post
    It's easier to track a bag of lettuce than a gun. In fact a gun is probably the most difficult product to track. This is by law. Check out that gq article.
    The laws need to be changed and created.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Things will tip when support crumbles, don’t see it happening yet. The pisser is that there are a lot of solutions that can move towards less proliferation of firearms and more social connectivity/containment for the nut jobs but it’ll take a generational change.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    A person could just as easily have done the same amount of damage with a pistol, it's not about AR-15s, stop making it about AR-15s, it makes you sound ignorant. This is simply about firearm proliferation, our country's lack of maturity, and it's aversion to thoughtfulness. None of these things are curable within the foreseeable future.

    My solution; the feds should take the authority of making laws surrounding firearms away from states. It should track every gun from when it comes off the assembly line to when it is melted down for scrap. If a firearm is used in committing a violent act, life in prison. If a gun owner is negligent and that negligence results in someone else getting hurt or killed, mandatory 10 year sentence, even if it's their child, heck, especially if it's their child who was hurt or killed. We just had a 15 year old in a nearby town die because his friend's father left his shotgun out and they decided to play Russian roulette. Also, ban all semi and full-auto, magazine fed firearms. Leaving revolvers and bolt-action, break open and lever-action to hunters and carry permit holders. There must be two locks on a gun at all times unless it's on your body. A locked case or safe and a trigger lock. Give doctors the power to revoke permits and have police confiscate weapons.

    Upside to gun owners, after they are registered and permitted, they can take their firearm to any state.
    all that makes lots of sense. Btw my son-in-law probably shoots his .243 fifty times a year. Every year one deer one bullet. No need for semi-automatic rifles in civilian use.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    A person could just as easily have done the same amount of damage with a pistol, it's not about AR-15s, stop making it about AR-15s, it makes you sound ignorant. This is simply about firearm proliferation, our country's lack of maturity, and it's aversion to thoughtfulness. None of these things are curable within the foreseeable future.

    My solution; the feds should take the authority of making laws surrounding firearms away from states. It should track every gun from when it comes off the assembly line to when it is melted down for scrap. If a firearm is used in committing a violent act, life in prison. If a gun owner is negligent and that negligence results in someone else getting hurt or killed, mandatory 10 year sentence, even if it's their child, heck, especially if it's their child who was hurt or killed. We just had a 15 year old in a nearby town die because his friend's father left his shotgun out and they decided to play Russian roulette. Also, ban all semi and full-auto, magazine fed firearms. Leaving revolvers and bolt-action, break open and lever-action to hunters and carry permit holders. There must be two locks on a gun at all times unless it's on your body. A locked case or safe and a trigger lock. Give doctors the power to revoke permits and have police confiscate weapons.

    Upside to gun owners, after they are registered and permitted, they can take their firearm to any state.
    The Parkland shooter wasn't old enough to buy a handgun, but was old enough to buy an AR and it is harder to shoot accurately with a handgun. Also he probably would have had to reload more often with a handgun.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    A person could just as easily have done the same amount of damage with a pistol, it's not about AR-15s, stop making it about AR-15s, it makes you sound ignorant. This is simply about firearm proliferation, our country's lack of maturity, and it's aversion to thoughtfulness. None of these things are curable within the foreseeable future.

    My solution; the feds should take the authority of making laws surrounding firearms away from states. It should track every gun from when it comes off the assembly line to when it is melted down for scrap. If a firearm is used in committing a violent act, life in prison. If a gun owner is negligent and that negligence results in someone else getting hurt or killed, mandatory 10 year sentence, even if it's their child, heck, especially if it's their child who was hurt or killed. We just had a 15 year old in a nearby town die because his friend's father left his shotgun out and they decided to play Russian roulette. Also, ban all semi and full-auto, magazine fed firearms. Leaving revolvers and bolt-action, break open and lever-action to hunters and carry permit holders. There must be two locks on a gun at all times unless it's on your body. A locked case or safe and a trigger lock. Give doctors the power to revoke permits and have police confiscate weapons.

    Upside to gun owners, after they are registered and permitted, they can take their firearm to any state.
    I agree with everything you say here. I'm a gun owner and a concealed carry permit holder. Nothing you say here is objectionable to me. This is what it means to be a RESPONSIBLE gun owner.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    The gun lobby social network is too well organized. There is not great man/woman leader capable of changing the status quo and able to knock the legs from gun lovers social network. It is the phenomenon of our times - that the greatest social leaders are beyond state interaction and yet incapable of giving social critism that can change the direction of our own faulty leadership.

    Currently in the United States we can only have profound sadness, rage, disappointment and eventual of acceptance of our situation. The majorities who could agree that semi and automatic guns are a plague can't get anything passed over the collective gun coalition and moneyed network.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 02-17-2018 at 01:09 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    It will only work if the firearms are confiscated. How are you going to do that?

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    It will only work if the firearms are confiscated. How are you going to do that?
    Giant magnet.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Its quite simple really , its been done before.
    But if you sorry lot are just going to accept the status quo , then I expect you deserve what you get !.
    Slaughter of your innocents , kids in your schools , concert goers , theatre goers.
    There is NOBODY , NOBODY to blame but yourselves.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    It will only work if the firearms are confiscated. How are you going to do that?
    Easy extremely lucrative buy back programs. Hand in ANY AR-15 before the gun ban goes into effect get $2,000 cash no questions asked. The money expended would be less than the stupid wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Probably the only person who could do it is Trump, the Right trust him and might even see the point if he suggested sane restriction and checks.

    A wild eyed dream .... is it possible ?
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 02-17-2018 at 01:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    It probably feels different *this time* to you, Joe, because you're in SoCal. North of you in Redneck Land, I have not heard a single word about the shooting, or guns. I'm guessing that correlates to the amount of soul searching and political pontificating that's happening in our respective locales.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    I was scheduled for " Active Shooter" and "Workplace Violence" training Friday by my employer - it was tough to get thru while thinking of the kids and parents in Parkland. Strange, the way our culture has evolved (devolved).


    Rick

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye54 View Post
    I was scheduled for " Active Shooter" and "Workplace Violence" training Friday by my employer - it was tough to get thru while thinking of the kids and parents in Parkland. Strange, the way our culture has evolved (devolved).


    Rick
    I wonder if insurance companies offer incentives to present these. Last year the business landlord invited tenants to a seminar and the idea was revolting, except it’s something that has gone through my head given the rare disturbed person who comes through the door.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    tipping point
    oh ****, i better order me another ar or two quick
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    That would be $3 Billion on Assault rifles alone Joe. And, as I said to you before, stop focusing on ARs, it makes you sound stupid and like you're simply covering the "talking points" instead of really trying to understand the problem. An intent killer can go to a local shop and buy a pair of used Glock 17s with 6 17 round magazines and a few hundred 9mm rounds for less than $1000 and do as much or more damage in any crowded area, none of these mass shootings, outside of the Las Vegas incident, occurs where the killer is more than 15 feet away from his victims. It's not about the platform, the AR style carbine is flashy, it attracts the person looking for the projection of power but if it didn't exist, their are 100 other models and configurations that would do the same thing. It's about semi-auto, this is the capability, coupled with large magazine capacity, that allows would-be killers to do so much damage. And lets face it, we can go a lot further with addressing mental illness and the societal ills which are drivers in these cases, but that alone will never capture all of the potential mass killers. Also, while horrifying on it's own, mass shootings don't make up the majority of gun deaths in this country. The proliferation of firearms is the single solvable problem that will have the biggest impact in stopping gun deaths.

    I also want to address a few things.

    A person or group of people will never be able to successfully oppose the government with ARs, it's simply not a reality. If the government was intent on suppressing us and was willing to kill it's own people indiscriminately, we wouldn't be able to stop it by force.

    Any firearm that can shoot a projectile through my walls in my home and through my neighbors walls, infringes upon my neighbors right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's simply unconstitutional and the notion that protecting your home with anything but bird shot in a shot gun or a roofing hammer should be extinguished with the full force of the law. For clarification; any person who discharges a firearm in their home that is capable of killing a person in the next house over or on the street from inside the house should go to jail.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    It's about semi-auto, this is the capability, coupled with large magazine capacity, that allows would-be killers to do so much damage.
    Excellent point. ARs are popular among the deranged because they look so macho, but focusing on one particular model rather what it can do is silly.

    Joe, I expect you're partly right - but you're in urban southern California. This has always been a rural-urban divide. But the country becomes more urban every year.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    OK I may be completely wrong but I'm sensing a tipping point. I hear ANGER from people about this last shooting. It's one of those times when all of a sudden things flip. Like with Gay Marriage, for years it was NO WAY IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN. Then one day it just happened.

    I'm hearing a deafening outrage this time around. Sad that Sandy Hook wasn't the straw that broke the back of the NRA lobby but I get a feeling it's coming. After that, maybe decent, intelligent gun laws and reform will finally be possible.

    Somehow this time I'm feeling hopeful even amidst this silly administration.

    Does anyone get the same vibe ?
    No, your not the only one. Just this morning, a Florida Republican congressman when asked “why does anyone need an AR-15 in their home?” Responded, “they don’t”. People are angry. These kids are pissed. There planning a nation wide walkout on twitter. That will keep the outrage alive if it’s big. I’m not sure how quick it will happen being an election year, but momentum is shifting.
    Last edited by CK 17; 02-17-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    IF YOU SIMPLY BAN ARs, YOU ARE NOT SOLVING THE PROBLEM!

    Tell me; what is an AR?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    Is this an assault rifle? Or, are you simply talking the "AR" platform?



    Because this^ rifle is this rifle:



    Neither are "AR"s but both are assault rifles. These are, in fact, the same rifle.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Tipping Point

    neither one of those is an assault rifle. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    Is this an assault rifle? Or, are you simply talking the "AR" platform?



    Because this^ rifle is this rifle:



    Neither are "AR"s but both are assault rifles. These are, in fact, the same rifle.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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