More Hartley

[castnet]

This was my first attempt at scarfing as well...built a jig box at a 8:1 angle...removed router base and replaced with thick piece of plexy glass...glass had to extend beyond both sides of the box by 8-10 inches...just slide the boards in clamp and router them out...came out fairly well...tested several pieces and couldn't break the joint...wodd always broke first....GL

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[castnet]

One more pic...

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[FishoutaFlorida]

Looks great castnet!

You know I've been dreading scarfing plywood for this build, knowing that the way I was scarfing the long pieces wouldn't work on the plywood. Maybe its time I reconcile my issues with routers and get the job done right.

Thanks!

Back to the build. So some of the boards came out OK, and others didn't. This is one that did.

DSCF6935.jpg

My moaning chair is doing double duty here.

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Here is my fit at the stem.

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I also ran across more problems with the frame notches.

But that is for another day, I'm getting close to being caught up my actual progress.

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Yo,

I mentioned a problem with the frame notches a while ago and since this was the first one, I thought I'd show how I got around it. The problem was that the keelson boards were supposed to end up flush with the outside of the frame at the transom. Mine didn't. They ended up below the place they were supposed to be.

But I had a whole bunch of 7:1 scraps and plenty of epoxy.

DSCF6950.jpg

So I built it up and then ground it down.

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chopped it off and called it a day.

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I'm fairly sure that some my methods/techniques that I haven't learned from an experienced soul may be looked down upon. But those same experienced souls also told me to "give it a try, if it doesn't work at least you learned something". So any and all advice is appreciated!

I like the way it looks now, but when it comes time to lay plywood will I feel the same way?

More later,

Eric

[castnet]

Don't have a lot of experience myself but I'd bet that build up you did is much stronger than the wood itself....

[FishoutaFlorida]

Thanks castnet,

I'm sure hoping that we are right on that issue, but I think we are.

One thing that I'd read about Hartley Trailer Sailor plans was they were a bit open to discussion. While everything fits, my lack of experience and "get it done" attitude has caused me some problems down the line. Especially the notches on the frames for the chines...for midship frames cutting them perpendicular to the frames was fine, but towards the bow, no bueno. Had to do a lot of bending (without soaking or steaming) to get them to fit.

More clamps solved this problem.

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Doubled up and plugged at the stem.

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Typical, will come back and fill in.

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More clamping.

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Starting to get the feel of what needs to be done to get these puppies in there. Started at the bow with the wood cut to fit, glue, clamp and begin to move aft with the glue/clamp cycle. Yahoo!

I've noticed on the Build/Repair thread data reports that I've got a lot of attachments out there compared to most of the threads. Perhaps I've got too much visual and not enough palaver?

What say ye?

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings all,

Just a reminder that I am still reliving history as I catch up to now. But had a lot of accomplishments up till now. Here is one. I partially predrilled all screw holes with a 3/8" and followed with a 7/64" as a pilot for the screws. And what do you cover all of that up with? Bungs!

DSCF6963.jpg

Took a screwdriver and pried these plugs out. Big ones, little ones, I've got it covered.

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Getting into the addition of stringers/chines. Cut the stem attachment angle on the stringer or chine, glue and screw, work from the stem to the transom bending, gluing and bending again. So far no problems with this method as I start with the gunwales and move to the keel. No problems with bending pieces into shape...so far.

DSCF6966.jpg

I'm using the plastic tubing that I bought for steaming wood as a drip stop on the floor. Just let it dry, roll it up with the drips on the outside edge and sweep up the drips. Roll it up and use it on the next epoxy session.

I've had the garage door open for the past couple of work sessions. Sometimes rolling the frame out to the driveway. Recently have had a couple of folks come up and talk to me about it. Almost without fail, they have had a relative or friend who have caught the bug well before me. Great to hear these stories and hope that I can add a chapter to the book. Not for me to decide though, back to the build.

Here is a teaser about my installation strategy.

DSCF6967.jpg

More later.

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings all,

Teasing? on a plywood dingy thread? What could be revealed?

Not too much, but I've got a feeling that there are others out there like me, knowing nothing, trying to gain knowledge from internet palaver, and still not knowing what to do.

So, learn from my mistakes. But this first part is not a mistake. To install these stringers/chines I would prop the board up, using a sawhorse to get the board at the right angle and clamp the puppy in the right spot. I used a temporary clamping board on the inside of the building stock to clamp to the stringer/chine. Marked and cut the piece, glued and screwed in the right spot and then moved on to mix thickened epoxy to attach the board to the rest of the frames moving toward the transom. Glue and clamp. (see photo above). Here is how the start looks from another direction.

DSCF6968.jpg

This strategy worked very well as I moved from the gunwales to the first chine. Feeling like I had it nailed down and...

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Rat farts! My lack of attention to detail on the scarf joint has brought itself front and center. Because I have not yet caught up with current events I can point to this as a cardinal moment. Ouch!

I've been trying to do the scarfs on a 7:1 and gluing several (4-6) at a time. These photos clearly show that my success ratio was waaaaaaaay to low.

DSCF6970.jpg

This issue continues with a bunch of groaning chair time and reckoning with the fact that I've got kiln dried material and some poorly constructed scarf joints. Bending wood as I started with may not be correct as I progress. Just remember that I am the Prince of Rube Goldberg solutions!

With such a claim of aristocracy, I would hope that someone will find time to deride, question and/or comment on the efforts presented.

More later.

Eric

[Phil Y]

Just glanced at this thread. Keep going, we all make mistakes, it's how you work around them and maintain the momentum that matters.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Thanks Phil,

I appreciate your thoughts! And once you get that momentum going...

[cglynn]

Just thinking out loud here....next go around, would it be possible to orient the scarf joints so that they are in between frames and located on a straighter run in the stringer, maybe along the aft portion of the boat? Seems there would be less stress on them that way, as opposed to bending the scarf around the frame.

[Hugh MacD]

What Phil and cglynn said. Trust me, you're not alone in this venture! I'm just happy you're willing to share your errors with us so others can learn as well. I've always heard 8:1 was the minimum (10-12:1 even better if you can do it) on scarfs and keep them well away from hard bends, even if you have to do 2 scarfs so the splices end up on a gentle bend...I think You've proved that point. Looks like time to dig out the heat gun. You've also pointed out something that is lacking in my shop. In lieu of a groaning chair I have a "Dunce Stool", but I'm thinking a chair would be more supportive of contemplation...and I wouldn't have to wear the pointy hat

[FishoutaFlorida]

Just thinking out loud here....next go around, would it be possible to orient the scarf joints so that they are in between frames and located on a straighter run in the stringer, maybe along the aft portion of the boat? Seems there would be less stress on them that way, as opposed to bending the scarf around the frame.

You know cglynn, I was originally planning to do just that, but when I looked at the gunnel joint below this one, I thought "well if it worked before...".

Note to self, stick with original plans. Thanks cglynn!

I've always heard 8:1 was the minimum (10-12:1 even better if you can do it) on scarfs and keep them well away from hard bends, even if you have to do 2 scarfs so the splices end up on a gentle bend...I think You've proved that point.

Yeah I'm thinking that I need to go back to my sources. For some reason I had heard/read that 7:1 was cool for boards and 12:1 for ply. But you are right, 7:1 is just not enough, and putting them right on a hard bend, no Bueno!

Dunce stool eh? My groaning chair is just waaaay to comfortable, perhaps the idea of a wood stool would be better aligned with the mission of the chair/stool...but I'll definitely have to find a pointy hat anyway. Thanks Hugh!

[WX]

When I started building my Hartley Spindrift 24 it was with a piece of timber in one hand and Hartley’s book in the other. When you get her planked up and turned over epoxy saturate all the inside or use a timber preservative. You will find that water will sit on the tops of the stringers and chines which will cause rot. Have fun and enjoy the process.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings WX,

Thanks for the advice on the epoxy interior. When I was building the frames I read somewhere that it was best to saturate the parts when I build them and to be sure to hit missing places before the hull is completed. Something about being easier to do on a piece by piece basis instead of pretending to be a snake and reach all of the bits and pieces where no man was meant to go.

Have fun and enjoy the process.

Definitely enjoying the journey! I may steal your statement to use as a mantra. Thanks again!

[WX]

If you are interested my thread is called Redwing Update. Saturating as you go is good.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Looks like I've got a bit of reading to do, subscription added. Thanks Gary!

[WX]

Looks like I've got a bit of reading to do, subscription added. Thanks Gary!

Sadly all the photos up to page 84 were lost when Photobucket shut down all the free accounts.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings all,

Groaning chair time did nothing but make me look further at the reason for failure. Pro's: CVG Douglas Fir, Con's: Kiln dried, bent w/o soaking/steaming, scarf joints located at high stress areas, inadequate scarf length, rat farts.

So the next day, I started to look at the rest of the board. Here is the view from aft of frame no. 4 looking forward. If you look hard you can see the "peels" on the lower edge of the bent board.

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So I thought that if I improved my clamping and bending process I would get by some of these symptoms.

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With repair of the failed joint and a better clamping plan, this worked out.

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I've got a feeling that I've just gotten very lucky and need to learn. I'm beginning to think that steaming with bending straps may be the answer. I don't have a lot of wood, and unfortunately it is all kiln dried. I just need to deal with it.

Again I'm always ready to hear suggestions. My education in woodworking is ongoing and I'm always searching for input.

More later,

Eric

[WX]

Don't know if you have timber recycling yards...second hand building materials etc. You might be able to pick a nice bit of old growth Oregon. I did that here for my mast timber.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Don't know if you have timber recycling yards...second hand building materials etc. You might be able to pick a nice bit of old growth Oregon. I did that here for my mast timber.

In San Antonio, that was the only place I could find DF. But it was old growth with 25-28 rings per inch. At $26+/bf it was better suited for mandolins and guitars. So for frame material I used Southern Yellow Pine. Now that I've relocated to the other beach, I've found a great lumberyard. Very big with just about anything you would need. Except maybe BS 1088, I haven't checked that yet. With the prices they have, I need to see if there are suitable recycle possibilities. But in this intensely urban setting, I'm going to have keep my eyes and ears open.

But my real issue is that I assumed that I could just blaze through these structural joints and ordered material accordingly. But my orders were also based on the fact that I'd be moving the wood in a Tonka Truck with a 6' bed. Education has a price.

I still haven't caught up to the current state of affairs with this story so...

Measure 3 times, cut once.

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Sometimes I think that I'm the Jerry Lewis of wood working.

More later.

Eric

[epoxyboy]

I built a John Welsford Pathfinder, with similar size stringers (about 40x20mm) I wound up having to rip them all lengthwise so each one was two 20x20mm pieces, as the species I used was very tough and springy (Tasmanian Oak - which is actually a eucalypt, not oak).
I thought it was going to be a nightmare, but with wet epoxy between the two strips, they suctioned together surprisingly well. A few large rubber bands helped too. Anyway, split like that, they went around much easier.
My Dad built a Hartley 16 when I was a kid, with no problems like this, but back then we had access to a very close grain white pine in NZ. It is all but impossible to get now. If you can find something with closer, straighter grain than you have now, that would help.

Pete

[Ralphie Boy]

Hi Eric,

It is my understanding that a proper scarf joint should be stronger than the wood it is made from. This suggests that the glueing procedure you used needs some modification. I have always heard that you should first apply unthickened epoxy to the faying surfaces before adding the thickened goo. Apparently this is because the wood will soak some of the epoxy up and then the joint can become ‘glue-starved’. This is also a reason why you don’t want to clamp the two pieces too tightly while gluing.

Also, it looks like you might have used a little too much thickener, I believe a consistency of peanut butter is recommended. I would also go to 8 to 1 on the bevels (minimum), it shouldn’t be much harder than 7:1.

As far as placing the scarf joint, if done properly strength shouldn’t be an issue, but ideally you may not want the scarf on an area with a lot of bend, since the stiffness of the wood will no longer be consistent over its length. The area of the scarf will probably be stiffer than the rest of the board, so the bend might not be ‘fair’ if it includes a scarf joint.

Hope that all makes sense. Good luck, and remember it’s a learning process!

Ralphie

[FishoutaFlorida]

I built a John Welsford Pathfinder, with similar size stringers (about 40x20mm) I wound up having to rip them all lengthwise so each one was two 20x20mm pieces, as the species I used was very tough and springy (Tasmanian Oak - which is actually a eucalypt, not oak).
I thought it was going to be a nightmare, but with wet epoxy between the two strips, they suctioned together surprisingly well. A few large rubber bands helped too. Anyway, split like that, they went around much easier.
My Dad built a Hartley 16 when I was a kid, with no problems like this, but back then we had access to a very close grain white pine in NZ. It is all but impossible to get now. If you can find something with closer, straighter grain than you have now, that would help.

Pete

Thanks for your observations Pete, just what I am looking for!

Your comments on the grain are spot on. Living in a metropolis like we do, finding a yard that can even spell DF is a huge positive. This was CVG DF in 10' lengths I think. Needing 15' pieces and buying 10' length demanded good scarf joints. The combination of using 7:1 and not fairing the joints properly have enlightened me.

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Hi Eric,

It is my understanding that a proper scarf joint should be stronger than the wood it is made from. This suggests that the glueing procedure you used needs some modification.

Really?

I have always heard that you should first apply unthickened epoxy to the faying surfaces before adding the thickened goo. Apparently this is because the wood will soak some of the epoxy up and then the joint can become ‘glue-starved’. This is also a reason why you don’t want to clamp the two pieces too tightly while gluing.

Building a wood surfboard, I sealed it up with an epoxy coat before adding fabric, only to reduce bubbles in the next coats. In not doing an un-thickened pre coat, I thought that I could do the best and then test it before installation. 75% of the breaks were in the joints. I'm going to add that into the process...but I still think my biggest problem is the craftsmanship and the use of kiln dried wood.

Also, it looks like you might have used a little too much thickener, I believe a consistency of peanut butter is recommended. I would also go to 8 to 1 on the bevels (minimum), it shouldn’t be much harder than 7:1.

Bingo on the 8 to 1. May try flatter after this. Perhaps on the thickener, but with small batches I was concerned that I would go too far.

As far as placing the scarf joint, if done properly strength shouldn’t be an issue, but ideally you may not want the scarf on an area with a lot of bend, since the stiffness of the wood will no longer be consistent over its length. The area of the scarf will probably be stiffer than the rest of the board, so the bend might not be ‘fair’ if it includes a scarf joint.

Hope that all makes sense. Good luck, and remember it’s a learning process!

Ralphie

Yes, I found out the hard way about not paying attention to the locations of the scarfs.

But most of all, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and the encouragement. I'm trying to be like a sponge and soak it all up.

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings all,

Life and the exploration of scarf joints continue as I work to develop the skills. Was on a string of success's of bending the stringers/chines when I ran into a slightly different problem that was alluded to earlier by epoxyboy. You nailed that!

DSCF7002.jpg

I'm going to blame this on kiln-dried wood with a wobble in the grain. At least it wasn't a scarf joint! Done with talking about them.

But I'm tired of breaking wood. Time to break out the steam power. Acknowledging the low moisture content, I'm using a clamping strap to keep all of the bending forces in the wood in compression by strapping the outside (tension) of the wood in place. I'm sure that a lot of you folks are familiar with this, but I love applying basic engineering concepts when it will help me. Never done this before, but I did use hot water to help me bend the rails on my surfboard.

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Now is time to stick this setup into a steam box, right?

Youtube can motivate you to think outside of the "box" and I found an idea that I couldn't walk away from.

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Instead of a steam box, I'm using a 9" Diameter, 9 mill tubing that I encased the wood/strap setup in to contain the steam. Also built little frames to hold onto the wood while steaming and guide the wood in place at the right time. Old gas tank with a radiator hose and a homebuilt distribution manifold with our faithful turkey fryer burner to provide the motivation to boil.

More later,

Eric

[WX]

More than one way to skin a cat eh.

[epoxyboy]

Bloody grain run out, hate that!
I have never tried steaming, but everybody says the box/tube or whatever needs to be open enough at the opposite end from where the steam goes in, to allow it to actually move through and cook the entire length as intended. If you've done that already, very good, carry on :-)

Pete

[Small boats rock]

Through trial and error I found some timber bends a long way without breaking but some just isn't great for bending. Oregon bends only a bit before it breaks as you've discovered... it isn't good for steaming either. I tried anyway and it got a bit more rubbery, but nothing compared to good steaming timbers. Any kind of cedar bends really well, no steam needed. If you're able to source any yellow cedar that could solve problems at the tightest bends. Someone above mentioned tasi oak (vic ash), which bends pretty well and is also good for steaming... it has very similar properties to American white oak... heavier than Oregon, but maybe ok if just a few pieces used for the tightest bends.

[WX]

Maybe if you ripped the timber into thinner strips and laminated them in place?

[FishoutaFlorida]

More than one way to skin a cat eh.

Yeah buddy, I realized I was spending waaaay too much time with scarf joints.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Bloody grain run out, hate that!
I have never tried steaming, but everybody says the box/tube or whatever needs to be open enough at the opposite end from where the steam goes in, to allow it to actually move through and cook the entire length as intended. If you've done that already, very good, carry on :-)

Pete

I was devastated when it broke in my hands. Right on with the venting, but don't forget about the slope of the box/tube...hot air rises. After my first trial I learned that one. To avoid messing up the process description, check out this video when you get a chance.



Enjoy,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Through trial and error I found some timber bends a long way without breaking but some just isn't great for bending. Oregon bends only a bit before it breaks as you've discovered... it isn't good for steaming either. I tried anyway and it got a bit more rubbery, but nothing compared to good steaming timbers. Any kind of cedar bends really well, no steam needed. If you're able to source any yellow cedar that could solve problems at the tightest bends. Someone above mentioned tasi oak (vic ash), which bends pretty well and is also good for steaming... it has very similar properties to American white oak... heavier than Oregon, but maybe ok if just a few pieces used for the tightest bends.

Spilling the beans on what is yet to come, I've found that kiln dried DF isn't the best steaming candidate. Check the next update for specifics.

I'm also now motivated to explore different types of wood on a species/purpose relationship. Not to mention getting away from kiln dried. Thanks for the info Geoff!

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Maybe if you ripped the timber into thinner strips and laminated them in place?

You know Gary, sometimes I've got to revert to an old standard "It was so obvious that if it was a snake, it would have bit me".

Even though I earlier said that these plans were ..."more of a suggestion than a rule", I saw 2- 5/8" X 1 1/4" and locked into that combination. Forgot my own mantra. Need to remember the KISS principle.

Thanks!!!

[FishoutaFlorida]

Greetings Pilgrims,

I really appreciate your thoughts and observations. If I can remember them all, well, I'll be a lot smarter about building wood boats. Thanks!

Anyho, back to the build. I had decided that steaming these last 4 chine pieces (1 1/4" X 5/8" X 15') was the way to bend without breaking. As mentioned earlier, I built several temp frame pieces to hold the board in place. Placed some "tunnels" on the frames to prop up the plastic and started the burner.

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I used a time ratio of 1 hr/inch plus a bit from steam on the wood to bending.

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As Geoff mentioned above, the wood easily bent into place, but would bounce back if allowed. I clamped them in and gave them 24 hrs before installing on the frames. There was a large amount of springback after removing the clamps. This concerned me as I went to install them, but they offered little resistance and fell into place. So now I have installed the 2 of the last 4 pieces to get to my next construction milestone. I'll be steaming both of the final pieces as well. Neighbors drop by when they see the steam which is nice.

Another milestone on this story is that it has now caught up to reality. It took a while, but the it's worth it.

More later,

Eric