More Hartley

[gypsie]

Re: More Hartley

Why not screws on the butt join WX? Isn't the epoxy doing the all work (like in a scarf) with the screws just holding it while it goes off.

Fishouta - i'd still say scarf the ply. It's easier than you think, a bit of bother, but looks much better - and is easier to manage.


planking, cool! Painting hard to reach spots while they are easy to reach - really good. Deep in that bow you'll need to be a six year old contorionist to paint it when its got a deck on.

Colour options all look good. Very subjective. That cabin finished bright on the black hull looks very sexy, but i see a lot of work keeping that. Varnish on top and the dark paint getting hot.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Greetings all,

Having purchased the ply, painted the hard spots and faired out all of my goofs, its time to plank. Well almost, the first bit is the transom. Here is a shot of the last frame before adding the ply.


I measured (3 times) the overall size of the transom, added a half inch both sides (it was Saturday night) and cut my first sheet of 9 mm down to a manageable size. Wrestled it into place and clamped it down.

DSCF7378.jpg


Then drew the outline of the frame onto the ply, cut it with a jig saw and 20 tooth blade and clamped it again.

DSCF7380.jpg


After finding out that my 1/2 inch extra was really much less, it took some time to get it in the right spot, where it was proud all the way around. Except for the middle top of the transom which is flat. Marked out where the bearing frame material was and pre-drilled for #2 ringed nails on a 5" grid. In this case I didn't lay out the grid and ended up with 5" as more of a suggestion than a rule. After sanding the transom ply, I'm thinking I'm ready to start in on the rest of the plywood.


DSCF7387.jpg

DSCF7390.jpg


All in all, this wasn't as tough as I was making it out to be. But I really need to increase my safety margin on ply cuts. However to go on to planking the rest of the hull, I've got a couple of questions:

The plans show un-dimensioned cut lines for the plywood planks, is it worthwhile to make cardboard/paper templates from the boat as an aid in cutting the ply? Seems to me that the actual dimensions would rule and I'd use measured dimensions from the plans as a back-up.

The order of planking seems to be a question as well. In looking at the Hartley plywood sailboat book, photos show them first planking from the keelson on down to the gunwale. But from following Geary on his 14' Hartley http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...hlight=hartley, he started from the gunwale and worked up to the keelson (both boats are upside down). So which would be the best?.

The Harley book also shows the use of a dolly in nailing the ply to the stringers. While the photo shows a single builder hammering and holding the dolly, text in other portions of the book recommends two builders for this task. I've got the dolly's used them on car projects, but wonder if they would require two builders?

Whew, lots of questions, but I'm sure there are some opinions out there and I'd sure like to hear them.

More later,

Eric

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Note to self:

Don't edit posts from computer other than the one that has the photos.

Carry on.

[gypsie]

Re: More Hartley

Cardboard templates is a good idea if you can do it. I don't know the construction of this boat, i imagine otherwise if you can fasten the ply to the boat and mark it off - but that will waste more material than using templates. You could make each template and arrange for minimum waste.

Keel first or sheer first - i can't imagine why it would make a material difference. The only thing i can think of is; from the sheer, you'll be left with having to have a very exact line on your final edge into the keel. The other way, you can let every 'plank' over run the chine without a worry, and sand/plane back after fixing. Me - I'd be working from the keel round.

I'm afraid i don't understand what a dolly is......

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Me - I'd be working from the keel round.

I'm afraid i don't understand what a dolly is......

Thanks! I like your reasoning with regard to the chines.

Here is a shot of a hammer and dolly in car body repair.

impp-1304-06-o+body-repair-part-1+using-the-dolly.jpg

With regards to my question, a dolly is used as a supporting mass held behind the stringer as the ply is nailed into the stringer. Hartley book says to use it so I probably will. Unless I find that the stringers are stout enough and don't bounce when hammered on.

More later,

Eric

[WX]

Re: More Hartley

Why not screws on the butt join WX? Isn't the epoxy doing the all work (like in a scarf) with the screws just holding it while it goes off.

Fishouta - i'd still say scarf the ply. It's easier than you think, a bit of bother, but looks much better - and is easier to manage.


planking, cool! Painting hard to reach spots while they are easy to reach - really good. Deep in that bow you'll need to be a six year old contorionist to paint it when its got a deck on.

Colour options all look good. Very subjective. That cabin finished bright on the black hull looks very sexy, but i see a lot of work keeping that. Varnish on top and the dark paint getting hot.

I used screws during my big repair last year...so no argument from me. I will be using screws when I haul out in a few weeks.

[gypsie]

Re: More Hartley

I used screws during my big repair last year...so no argument from me. I will be using screws when I haul out in a few weeks.

Sorry mate, i miss read your post #229 - my bad.

FOF - It's considered good practice to pre-drill the hole even if nailing. Undersized hole for a snug fit. It stops the fibers of the timber from getting crushed and promoting rot. This would probably make the dolly unnecessary.
Don't bash the glue out of the join!

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Cardboard templates is a good idea if you can do it. I don't know the construction of this boat, i imagine otherwise if you can fasten the ply to the boat and mark it off - but that will waste more material than using templates. You could make each template and arrange for minimum waste.

Greetings all,

So I've set off on planking with ply. For the first pieces I lofted I had scanned the ply cut layout portion of the provided plans, put them in CAD, calibrated to 8' X 4' sheets and measured offsets on 1' stations, measured and marked on the ply. Then I started working with developing a template.

DSCF7393.jpg

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The cardboard was used by Forest Plywood to bundle my purchase. Originally set it out by the recycling, left it in one of our annual rainfall events and then realized its value. Super valuable!

Then I compared the measured layout to the template and was no longer feeling good. Here are both layouts on the ply sheet.

DSCF7396.jpg

Measure three times, right? Measured layout on the left, template on the right.

I ended up cutting just outside the template limits and all is well. So now I'm doing a template first, then marking on the ply and cutting outside that line. Not paying too much attention to the ply layout on the plans. Now on to some of the tougher planks.

DSCF7399.jpg

That's as far as I've gone so far, love to hear any kind of feedback.

But I can begin to feel some bit of soul when I do some temporary clamping.

DSCF7398.jpg

Not much, but a whisper when the flags start flapping.

More later,

Eric

[Small boats rock]

Re: More Hartley

I was feeling some soul even prior to your clamping. She is taking shape beautifully. Reckon you've got a good approach sorted out to get the ply fitted without any more waste than necessary. Always good to take measurements direct from the work at this stage. Well done keeping up the steady progress.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Greetings all,

Still cutting ply planks, been using measured templates as the primary pattern.

DSCF7404.jpg

Realized that okoume was the right choice when I bent it into place.

DSCF7401.jpg

I bent the ply to the tightest curves without complaint or cracking. Still have several more pieces to cut. Major stress reliever.

I'm cutting the ply about 1/4" to 1/2" outside measured limits. Deathly afraid of short cutting...

Anyway, Go Red Sox!

Eric

[WX]

Re: More Hartley

Nothing wrong with cutting outside the line, it’s how I did it.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Nothing wrong with cutting outside the line, it’s how I did it.

Thanks Gary, even when I was building a surfboard, I seem to have always left a bit for final fitting.

But as I was looking at the 2nd photo just now, I realized that this shot showed a dimension line on it midships.

DSCF7401_1.jpg

And to clarify, I did cut outside the line, but that line is actually why I used two sheets of ply when plans call for one.

I laid out the part by scaling the plans in CAD. Also did the template for the part by laying out cardboard on the frame. The template dimensions were larger than scaled plans. So I went pack to the play to trace the templates and found that the dimensions that were larger than plans were showing (or at least my CAD version of it, I used the plans in CAD, calibrated the CAD to the 8' x 4' dimension and measured from there). So two sheets instead of one. What you see in that shot is the overlap between two pieces measured out on Ply as shown in the plans.

I sat and wondered what to do and realized that using 2 sheets was the only answer to build a part that would fit the boat. Waste? I've already used part of the scraps from those sheets for other planks. Maybe I can minimize the impact of these inefficient cut layouts.

I think that I've also mentally figured out how I'm going to plank this boat. As recommended earlier, start at the keelson with the first panel fitted tight and fair to the keelson. With a bit of an overhang at the outboard chine, fit the next panel fair and tight to the bottom of the first panel. And so forth and so on. Come back to clean up the joints before the fiberglass.

Visualizing this process where before I was blind truly is an epiphany for me. Since I'm feeling enlightened, I thought that I might share a few.

Anyway, these standards highlights a couple of things that this work has had on my boat building apprenticeship:

Measure everything about 8 times.
Mark your measurement points.
If somethings doesn't look right, don't cut!
If plan layout doesn't look right, don't cut!
Wasted wood by cutting outside the lines can be returned with success, both educational and product.

I'm sure that there are millions more of these little epiphanies out there, but since I'm well south of even average in skills, I thought that I might share these with others similarly affected! And hope that others further up on the boatbuilding evolutionary scale may feel motivated to add their own two bits!

More later,

Enlightened Eric

[WX]

Re: More Hartley

Not sure what you mean by two sheets.

[FishoutaFlorida]

Re: More Hartley

Not sure what you mean by two sheets.

Sorry about that, plans may help here.

Part A.jpg

This is an 8'X4' sheet of ply with the two parts in question shown fitting on one sheet of ply. With wider widths of the actual templates, each piece required the majority of a sheet of ply. Sorry about the confusion.

[gypsie]

Re: More Hartley

I get you, i think.
But it's not necessary to get the reciprocal piece from the same sheet - you should be able to get other strakes as well as smaller parts, like centerboard and rudder/rudder case, from the off cuts.
Might be worth roughing out templates for every part and then arranging them on sheets of ply laid out on the floor. I did that with molds for a boat once.

I always over cut and then use my belt sander with 40 grit paper to drive the line back into place. I've become fairly adept with the tool. Typical repait for me; Epoxy in big hunk of wood making sure the mating surfaces match pretty well, sculpt (grind) back until happy. Take a photo and show people your amazing joinery.