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Thread: More Hartley

  1. #211
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I keep thinking that too...it's about the journey. Much as I look forward to having the Tammie Norrie in the water, if I miss the pleasure of the process I have lost half of the joy of building a boat. I'm learning new skills, doing things I've always thought sounded fun, (bending wood, using hand tools), and dreaming of the day that I get to enjoy sailing,(also new to me)with my grand-kids.

    I love Oregon's Bay Area as will. I've spent most of my life here, and Oregon's beauty is endless. Hundreds of lakes, as well as the bay, beg for some kind of a craft in which to explore them. Some day you'll have to bring your boat here, and maybe explore the fog together!

    Ken

  2. #212
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by KenStocker View Post
    Some day you'll have to bring your boat here, and maybe explore the fog together! Ken
    Right on Ken, count me in!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  3. #213
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Having tried to shape the stringers/chines, tested to conform with scrap pieces of ply laid over the structure to prove chine bevels. I have figured that it's time to plank this puppy.

    But I can't shake a comment made earlier where I stated that I would be sure to seal the frames/stringers/chines as much as possible before planking. This approach is taken to remove future painful contortions. A lot of different motivations go into this decision, but I had time, paint and a couple of brushes so why not?

    Before:

    DSCF7341.jpg

    So what will I seal it with? A lot of the framework materials have had a single application of epoxy. But significant portions have sanded. Because the frame may need to spend some time outside I realized that it needed to be sealed now that all was square. I had recently put my faith in a paint product and purchased a gallon and decided to paint what I have before I plank it. Paint? Rust-Oleum Porch and Floor Coating.

    DSCF7345.jpg

    Only finished half.

    DSCF7346.jpg

    Now this paint will be used as a primer as well as a final coat in different places. Yet to be determined. But the story of finding this product after deserves mention in this ramble. So, having done extensive internet searching on paint for trailer sailers, I found out about Porch and Floor Coating. After in depth inspection of product reviews from unknown reviewers I found that it was available at a local chain hardware store. Long story short, of the 6 gallons of paint he had onsite, one was what I was looking for. For the product I liked the way it flowed on and am glad the shop had what I needed.

    One bothersome question is...Have I messed up a future task by adding this coating? Plans show ring nails only on ply/stringer anchors so I shouldn't have to worry about glue applications involving the paint. Don't glue up with painted bearings right?

    Any and all observations, comments, and other witticism's encouraged and welcome.

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 09-24-2018 at 01:07 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  4. #214
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I'd have expected to glue onto the stringers, surprised you don't need to. I'd also have thought screws over nails. Me - I'd glue and screw.
    You'll need to glue the edges at least yeah? So some sanding off at the mating surfaces will be required.

    Looks nice painted up like that - shows up the shape from the network of molds and supports. Bit of a milestone really.
    Time for a wee dram.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  5. #215
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    That first chine has a lovely sweeping curve.
    Very pleasing.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Eric
    I would have left the stringer glue surface to the plywood free of paint.
    I am not sure you have enhanced the glue stickability when the ply is glued on....
    We epoxy glued and nailed the ply covering to the stringers when we built our Hartley

  7. #217
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I'd have expected to glue onto the stringers, surprised you don't need to. I'd also have thought screws over nails. Me - I'd glue and screw.
    You'll need to glue the edges at least yeah? So some sanding off at the mating surfaces will be required.

    Looks nice painted up like that - shows up the shape from the network of molds and supports. Bit of a milestone really.
    Time for a wee dram.
    Greetings Trev,

    Yeah I was all set to leave the stringers bare, but went back to the plans and saw this:

    Hull Planking Plan.jpg
    So I decided to stick with the plans and nail the ply to stringers. But they do call for glue and clenched nails on the butt joint. So...

    It does look nice with some color to distinguish from the stock and such. I've definitely labeled it a milestone and have invoked some single malt in celebration!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  8. #218
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Eric
    I would have left the stringer glue surface to the plywood free of paint.
    I am not sure you have enhanced the glue stickability when the ply is glued on....
    We epoxy glued and nailed the ply covering to the stringers when we built our Hartley
    Thanks for the info Don!, it looks like my original idea was what you've done in the past. I may still sand off those areas and glue as well. But a potential of relocation prior to planking motivated me to seal up as much as possible. I should probably do some more research on whether this is nail only or glue/nail. I'm probably forgetting, but was your Hartley a 14'?

    Thanks,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  9. #219
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    We built a Hartley 16, the popular racing class downunder. Although they do race some 14s at some clubs.
    We glued and nailed all plywood to every stringer when it was built.
    Remember that when Richard Hartley drew those drawings int he 60s glue was expensive.....today it is very cheap.
    Have a closer look at the drawing.
    Directly under the E you will see a line of fastenings (dots) on the middle stringer.
    Also directly above the A you will see a line of fastenings (dots) on the diagonals. Note the fastenings around B on each stringer.
    These are 3/4" x 14 nails at 5 inch centres.
    Adding a modern adhesive ensure that no water gets between the stringer and plywood and secures it for good with the nails.

  10. #220
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Remember that when Richard Hartley drew those drawings int he 60s glue was expensive.....today it is very cheap.
    Don, good point about the age of the design and cost of materials. I will definitely sand down the chines/stringers prior to planking. Thanks for the info!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  11. #221
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    If you glue and screw you won't need clench nails.
    I'd also imagine the plans are talking about bronze ring shank nails. I'd wager glue and screw is stronger and cheaper - and will last way longer.

    In my mind i see a steep chop work the boat fore and aft, and pop those nails along the topsides (imagine a shoe box being pushed up at the ends and down in the middle, the sides, at the middle, will be forced outwards). Weaker structure and create a nice cozy place for moisture to live.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  12. #222
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    you should glue and nail, or glue and screw. That is how the boat is intended. I built mine with epoxy glue and screws, and fiberglassed the hull after.. It's bulletproof.

  13. #223
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I'd also imagine the plans are talking about bronze ring shank nails. I'd wager glue and screw is stronger and cheaper - and will last way longer.
    you should glue and nail, or glue and screw. That is how the boat is intended. I built mine with epoxy glue and screws, and fiberglassed the hull after.. It's bulletproof.
    Indeed bronze ring shank nails are specified. But it looks like all agree that life will be better with glue. So epoxy I will. With this in mind I agree Trev, that the glue and screw is stronger. But I've already purchased the nails...

    If I substituted with screws, I'd still use the same spacing as the nails right?

    Thanks for the comments, I love the idea of bulletproof!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  14. #224
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I glued and ring nailed my planks to the stringers and chines.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  15. #225
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Ring nails, with epoxy, will be good. No need for screws. You'll know that the first time you try to pull a ring nail out. But definitely epoxy the planking to all frames and stringers. The clench nails for the butt joins might be copper boat nails rather than bronze ring nails.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I glued and ring nailed my planks to the stringers and chines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Ring nails, with epoxy, will be good. No need for screws. You'll know that the first time you try to pull a ring nail out. But definitely epoxy the planking to all frames and stringers. The clench nails for the butt joins might be copper boat nails rather than bronze ring nails.
    Thanks for the input Gary & Phil, makes me feel better about staying the course with the ring nails. An double thanks Phil for pointing out the copper nails on the butt joins!

    Now if I can just figure out where I'll be working next...

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  17. #227
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Ring nails, with epoxy, will be good. No need for screws. You'll know that the first time you try to pull a ring nail out. But definitely epoxy the planking to all frames and stringers. The clench nails for the butt joins might be copper boat nails rather than bronze ring nails.
    What he says.

    But if you don't have copper nails yet, i'd go screws from the outside that don't go all the way through the butt block (which has also been glued on!) - and cover the whole outside in fiberglass. The fiberglass cover will do heaps to protect fasteners from corrosion, the boat from abrasion, and help fair up the surface to hide joins or any small gaps etc....
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    What he says.

    But if you don't have copper nails yet, i'd go screws from the outside that don't go all the way through the butt block (which has also been glued on!) - and cover the whole outside in fiberglass. The fiberglass cover will do heaps to protect fasteners from corrosion, the boat from abrasion, and help fair up the surface to hide joins or any small gaps etc....
    You know, this info from Gary, Trev and everyone else is the reason that I post my progress here. Info from those who have gone before me is invaluable! I had already planned on glassing the hull and now I've got it figured out about the butt join!

    Many thanks to all!

    Have a cold one of your choice on me! I'll pay you back the next time I see you!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  19. #229
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    What he says.

    But if you don't have copper nails yet, i'd go screws from the outside that don't go all the way through the butt block (which has also been glued on!) - and cover the whole outside in fiberglass. The fiberglass cover will do heaps to protect fasteners from corrosion, the boat from abrasion, and help fair up the surface to hide joins or any small gaps etc....
    I have to say that during the repairs last year I used screws on the butt blocks and I will be doing the same during the next bout of repair work.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I have to say that during the repairs last year I used screws on the butt blocks and I will be doing the same during the next bout of repair work.
    Consensus? I've got the screws!

    I painted all of the bearing surfaces as a temporary measure to seal during extended exterior exposure. That may not be the case so I'm finishing the port side and sanding the starboard side.

    DSCF7347.jpg

    Newly painted frame.

    DSCF7348.jpg

    And the overall view.

    DSCF7350.jpg

    Next task....
    - Develop "lofting" dimensions for plywood hull pieces
    - Buy hull and transom ply
    - Measure and cut ply
    - ....

    I've figured that I'm up to speed by painting the frame, but what about painting the interior of hull ply before installation? Save some effort later? Inquiring minds need to know.

    Thanks for the input, keep it coming!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  21. #231
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    This is an exciting stage because it means planking is next and to me that is when it becomes a boat. You could mark up the the chine and stringer positions when you do your final dry fit of the plank and then paint the inside surface.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  22. #232
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    You could mark up the the chine and stringer positions when you do your final dry fit of the plank and then paint the inside surface.
    Funny thing is that was my next question. Is it worthwhile to paint the inside surface before installation? I'm on a roll now!

    CIMG1940.jpg

    Sometimes you have to fly to a point to pick up a ride...

    Outside motivations are pointing me towards finishing the hull and getting it onto a trailer as soon as I can. But first I need to buy some ply and figure out a couple of transom details.

    Thanks Gary!

    I figure that I will measure a million times (and still not get it right), cut to fit, bevel as required, dry fit to satisfaction, epoxy the ply, lay the glass, epoxy the glass, fuss and fret about the fairness, give up on improving the line, paint the interior side and get on with the planking.

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 10-01-2018 at 03:03 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  23. #233
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Painting is a good idea because once that hull is flipped it's going to fill up with sawdust, woodshavings and god knows what else you've accidentally stood in.
    Of course you may not be as messy as I am.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  24. #234
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Of course you may not be as messy as I am.
    DSCF6879.jpg

    Hmmmmm, I might be able to keep up with you on that front.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  25. #235
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I have a similar photo somewhere.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  26. #236
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Great progress as you are now thinking of finishing the hull means thinking about the colour scheme.
    Here are some great photos from the NSW Australia Hartley 16 Champs with some great colour schemes to view.
    Scroll down to the gallery of photos.
    http://www.australianhartleyts16.org...hips/2018-2019
    Enjoy, they are all built of wood.

  27. #237
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    Great progress as you are now thinking of finishing the hull means thinking about the colour scheme.
    Here are some great photos from the NSW Australia Hartley 16 Champs with some great colour schemes to view.
    Scroll down to the gallery of photos.
    http://www.australianhartleyts16.org...hips/2018-2019
    Enjoy, they are all built of wood.
    Muchas Gracias Don! Just what I was looking for. I've been collecting photo's of boats to collect ideas, and this has a ton of them!

    Great minds think alike eh?

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  28. #238
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Rounding1.jpg

    This looks like fun!

    And it has my top color choices in one shot. Special thanks to austrailianhartleyts16.org for the photo!

    I like the teal hull on the inside boat,
    Love the rub rail stripe and name combination on middle blue hull,
    and the outside boat has a great total package with the green hull, bright cabin walls with white roof and a nice stripe as well.

    Decisions, decisions.

    Also need to buy the ply, don't want to get too far ahead of myself. But looking at those 16's really gets me motivated.

    Thanks again Don, time to choose colors!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  29. #239
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Opinions and recommendations considered, Joubert Okoume was the choice. 6mm & 9mm purchased today. Lots of mental energy spent on this decision, but the bottom line was it was the most flexible of all of the options. Bad experience with bending exterior DF may have tipped the scale.

    So, do you know what $1,000 dollars looks like in SoCal?

    DSCF7369A.jpg

    9 sheets - 6mm Joubert Okoume Marine Ply
    2 sheets - 9mm Joubert Okoume Marine Ply

    Commitment to planking also meant providing storage for ply sheets.

    Primary design goal is to maintain Mustang parking spot!

    DSCF7370.jpg

    Really need to carve some more space for the stallion. Photo looks good, but...

    Time to turn this frame into a hull.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  30. #240
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Time to turn this frame into a hull.
    That's the bit I like.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  31. #241
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Why not screws on the butt join WX? Isn't the epoxy doing the all work (like in a scarf) with the screws just holding it while it goes off.

    Fishouta - i'd still say scarf the ply. It's easier than you think, a bit of bother, but looks much better - and is easier to manage.


    planking, cool! Painting hard to reach spots while they are easy to reach - really good. Deep in that bow you'll need to be a six year old contorionist to paint it when its got a deck on.

    Colour options all look good. Very subjective. That cabin finished bright on the black hull looks very sexy, but i see a lot of work keeping that. Varnish on top and the dark paint getting hot.
    Last edited by gypsie; 10-13-2018 at 04:38 PM.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Having purchased the ply, painted the hard spots and faired out all of my goofs, its time to plank. Well almost, the first bit is the transom. Here is a shot of the last frame before adding the ply.
    Attachment 24539

    I measured (3 times) the overall size of the transom, added a half inch both sides (it was Saturday night) and cut my first sheet of 9 mm down to a manageable size. Wrestled it into place and clamped it down.

    DSCF7378.jpgAttachment 24540


    Then drew the outline of the frame onto the ply, cut it with a jig saw and 20 tooth blade and clamped it again.

    DSCF7380.jpg
    Attachment 24541

    After finding out that my 1/2 inch extra was really much less, it took some time to get it in the right spot, where it was proud all the way around. Except for the middle top of the transom which is flat. Marked out where the bearing frame material was and pre-drilled for #2 ringed nails on a 5" grid. In this case I didn't lay out the grid and ended up with 5" as more of a suggestion than a rule. After sanding the transom ply, I'm thinking I'm ready to start in on the rest of the plywood.

    Attachment 24542
    DSCF7387.jpg

    DSCF7390.jpg
    Attachment 24543

    All in all, this wasn't as tough as I was making it out to be. But I really need to increase my safety margin on ply cuts. However to go on to planking the rest of the hull, I've got a couple of questions:

    The plans show un-dimensioned cut lines for the plywood planks, is it worthwhile to make cardboard/paper templates from the boat as an aid in cutting the ply? Seems to me that the actual dimensions would rule and I'd use measured dimensions from the plans as a back-up.

    The order of planking seems to be a question as well. In looking at the Hartley plywood sailboat book, photos show them first planking from the keelson on down to the gunwale. But from following Geary on his 14' Hartley http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...hlight=hartley, he started from the gunwale and worked up to the keelson (both boats are upside down). So which would be the best?.

    The Harley book also shows the use of a dolly in nailing the ply to the stringers. While the photo shows a single builder hammering and holding the dolly, text in other portions of the book recommends two builders for this task. I've got the dolly's used them on car projects, but wonder if they would require two builders?

    Whew, lots of questions, but I'm sure there are some opinions out there and I'd sure like to hear them.

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 10-17-2018 at 07:38 PM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  33. #243
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Note to self:

    Don't edit posts from computer other than the one that has the photos.

    Carry on.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  34. #244
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Cardboard templates is a good idea if you can do it. I don't know the construction of this boat, i imagine otherwise if you can fasten the ply to the boat and mark it off - but that will waste more material than using templates. You could make each template and arrange for minimum waste.

    Keel first or sheer first - i can't imagine why it would make a material difference. The only thing i can think of is; from the sheer, you'll be left with having to have a very exact line on your final edge into the keel. The other way, you can let every 'plank' over run the chine without a worry, and sand/plane back after fixing. Me - I'd be working from the keel round.

    I'm afraid i don't understand what a dolly is......
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  35. #245
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Me - I'd be working from the keel round.

    I'm afraid i don't understand what a dolly is......
    Thanks! I like your reasoning with regard to the chines.

    Here is a shot of a hammer and dolly in car body repair.

    impp-1304-06-o+body-repair-part-1+using-the-dolly.jpg

    With regards to my question, a dolly is used as a supporting mass held behind the stringer as the ply is nailed into the stringer. Hartley book says to use it so I probably will. Unless I find that the stringers are stout enough and don't bounce when hammered on.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

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