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Thread: More Hartley

  1. #176
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Perhaps use some of your three ply to make a test scarf joint. After it is well cured try to break it. You may be surprised at how strong the joint is, or if not then at least you know to look further for other ply wood.
    That sounds like a good idea, you know what they say about assuming...Thanks Geoff. I also need to figure out how to cut the 12:1 taper on 1/4" pieces...any ideas out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    And perhaps give it a "boil test" to see what kind of glue they actually used. I had some "exterior" ply (5/8" 5 ply) offcuts that I got wet and they didn't just delaminate, they fairly flew apart. I was just using them for a benchtop, luckily.
    Ouch! another good test for my assumptions Hugh. By the way I went back to the homeland in the Willamette Valley last weekend, I sometimes forget about how beautiful the PNW is.

    Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and opinions, always looking for more!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  2. #177
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Butt blocks are alternative to scarphing, and work just as well. Use the same plywood as your planking.
    FWIW, when I built the CLC sea kayaks, that was all 4mm 3 ply, and it scarphed fine - just keep the joints away from the areas with a lot of twist, they'll be fine.
    On the Pathfinder, everything below seat level (out of sight) was butt blocked, everything above was scarphed. Butt blocks don't have to be butt ugly either, you can fit them neatly between stringers, and radius the exposed edges.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  3. #178
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Butt blocks are alternative to scarphing, and work just as well. Use the same plywood as your planking.
    Pete
    Good point, in fact butt joints with a backing plate is the method shown on the plans for the trailer sailor...
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  4. #179
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Small steps lately, but just finished up with a lot of detail and the diagonal stringer needed to place all of the rest of the stringers.

    DSCF7233.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    And perhaps give it a "boil test" to see what kind of glue they actually used. I had some "exterior" ply (5/8" 5 ply) offcuts that I got wet and they didn't just delaminate, they fairly flew apart. I was just using them for a benchtop, luckily.
    I've been thinking about this idea a lot and have decided to embark on an investigation that will hopefully save some $$ and give me some practice with plywood scarf joints. Big question is: Can exterior plywood be used in lieu of BS 1088 plywood? 3 ply vs. 5 ply gives me cause for concern in the connection and the boiling test is very important as well.

    Not that I believe I'll sail into a boiling sea for any measurable piece of time.

    New thread to discuss exterior plywood: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...07#post5623807

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  5. #180
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    Good point, in fact butt joints with a backing plate is the method shown on the plans for the trailer sailor...
    I used butt blocks glued on and nailed with clenched copper nails.
    If you can afford the marine 5 ply then go with that. I assume you will be glassing the outside of the hull?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I assume you will be glassing the outside of the hull?
    Yes indeed I'll be glassing the outside Gary, 1/4" seems so thin! Right now the marine 5 ply is about 3 times the cost of the 1/4" DF, so I'm hoping that the scarf joints work out.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  7. #182
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    3/8” doesn’t feel much thicker when you are out there and there’s all that water under you.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    The hull will be plenty strong enough with 1/4" (6mm) marine plywood. That is after the stringers are in place. The 16' only uses 6mm plywood.
    And you are making it stronger by glassing the outside.
    Strongly recommend using 1/4" certified marine plywood 5 ply from a reputable source. 3 ply does not have sufficient strength in the bow area where it is needed.
    The weakness of Hartley ply over stringers and frame is from the inside. Fresh water can trap along the stringers and near the transom which rots the plywood from the inside.
    5 ply marine plywood gives you 4 layers of waterproof glue as added protection.
    So after use drain the boat dry and store under cover. If any water is left inside the hull make sure it is salt water not fresh.
    I always like the skill Richard Hartley took in designing his hulls using a straight stringer in the most curved section of the hull.
    He is the only designer I have seen who universally used this technique.

  9. #184
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Just a thought on your use of flour for thickening.
    With woodflour, the wood dust can soak up the epoxy and starve the join, not leave enough to adhere to both sides. I'd have thought wheat flour would do the same. Micro balloons don't do this.
    I use woodflour, but i always apply unthickened epoxy to both mating surfaces, and then add the thickened material. Just to make sure there is enough epoxy to soak into the material. I suspect that may be why your scarf snapped.

    I think when you are coating your epoxy you may be applying a lot more than necessary. Not a problem, just expensive. How are you applying it?
    I use 100mm foam paint rollers for large areas like your CB case, and work it in well. Just enough to soak in after 2 layers, especially when adding glass, you want the glass to be tight to the ply.
    Otherwise i buy bunches of cheap glue brushes on ebay for small stuff.
    Last edited by gypsie; 07-17-2018 at 12:31 AM.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  10. #185
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    3/8” doesn’t feel much thicker when you are out there and there’s all that water under you.
    True that Gary, but I still love the band Blind Faith...

    Strongly recommend using 1/4" certified marine plywood 5 ply from a reputable source. 3 ply does not have sufficient strength in the bow area where it is needed.
    The weakness of Hartley ply over stringers and frame is from the inside. Fresh water can trap along the stringers and near the transom which rots the plywood from the inside.
    5 ply marine plywood gives you 4 layers of waterproof glue as added protection.
    Great point about the bow situation Don. While not done with the testing program yet, I keep thinking about a gray windy day and wondering...are 3 plys enough?

    Just a thought on your use of flour for thickening.
    With woodflour, the wood dust can soak up the epoxy and starve the join, not leave enough to adhere to both sides. I'd have thought wheat flour would do the same. Micro balloons don't do this.
    I use woodflour, but i always apply unthickened epoxy to both mating surfaces, and then add the thickened material. Just to make sure there is enough epoxy to soak into the material. I suspect that may be why your scarf snapped.

    I think when you are coating your epoxy you may be applying a lot more than necessary. Not a problem, just expensive. How are you applying it?
    I use 100mm foam paint rollers for large areas like your CB case, and work it in well. Just enough to soak in after 2 layers, especially when adding glass, you want the glass to be tight to the ply.
    Otherwise i buy bunches of cheap glue brushes on ebay for small stuff.
    Thanks Trev!

    Thanks for the awesome review, here we go.

    With regard to the wheat flour, I read an opinion of how this was an acceptable substitution and decided to follow that ideology. Made a lot of scarf joints with the material and stockpiled the results. While I hate to admit it, in the past couple of days, several scarf joints have failed after being installed several months ago. Now, I used a 7:1 ratio on those joints which in hindsight is too steep, but the failure was in the epoxy and it appeared that there was a significant amount of entrapped air in the glue. Which may correspond to observing air bubbles when I add the wheat flour. From your comments and some research it looks like I need to go back to the library on this item.

    Too much epoxy? I've run out of measuring containers and have noticed that my production runs now seem to have been a bit oversized. The epoxy that I'm using is about 3 years old so I'm also not too tight on this issue. All of these excuses are just that, excuses for not getting it right

    Regarding the goal of keeping the glass to be tight to the ply, I'm with you on that, has to happen.

    With wood surfboards I always use an un-thickened epoxy on the wood before a light sand, lay glass and spread the epoxy. The lack of the sealer coat in a joint situation could certainly be my problem.

    No rollers for me yet, I'm using cheap glue brushes from the internet. May change that when I start to scarf larger pieces.

    For more info on ply & joint selection check out this sidebar:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...trailer-sailer

    Thanks all for your observations and input, will definitely benefit this task!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  11. #186
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Having just bought a sheet of quality (OZ made) marine grade ply I strongly recommend you save your pennies and get quality.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Having just bought a sheet of quality (OZ made) marine grade ply I strongly recommend you save your pennies and get quality.
    I'm beginning to come to that conclusion. Haven't even finished testing the DF sample but I've got a huge case of the willies about sticking with that material. Thanks for the opinion Gary, it's greatly appreciated.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  13. #188
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    The International Cadet dinghy I am restoring has 'but blocks' or covering strips on a 4 piece deck. I was going to scarf 2 bigger sheets and give her a one piece deck with darts, but seeing it's a restoration should I stick to the original build standard? The other way I thought of was to rebate the frames under the joints enough to take a ply 'but block' and so leave a smooth deck. Any thoughts?

  14. #189
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Having just bought a sheet of quality (OZ made) marine grade ply I strongly recommend you save your pennies and get quality.
    Well Gary, after a whole lot of testing that didn't prove much, I've come to the conclusion that your are right. 6mm, 5 ply BS1088 for the hull, and seriously considering butt backer joint instead of scarf. Maybe do some more testing, but...

    Anyway, on with the stringers, first I did something that I didn't do on the chines or other stringers.

    DSCF7279.jpg

    which helps the stringers get to the right spot.

    DSCF7280.jpg

    Finally starting to take shape, I'm seeing how I will need to shape the chines now too. So I'm pumped!

    DSCF7289.jpg

    Thanks again for all of your comments and observations!

    Now it is on to the bow stringers, buying plywood and some planking. Yahoo!

    On the medium range radar is a trailer and centerboard. I've think I've got the centerboard figured out, but would love trailer ideas. Size, material type, place to find one, etc.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  15. #190
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    She's looking good mate.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    You won't need much of a trailer for such a light weight boat, but, look for a trailer which keeps the load as low down as possible, single axle for manoeuvrability, long draw bar so as to get the boat out deep enough before the tow vehicle reaches the drink, and you might want some of those guide post thingamajiggys (let's just call them majiggys) because a breeze or current will make the boat drift annoyingly side on to the trailer when trying to load back on. The less joins and complexity in the construction the better in terms of reducing corrosion issues down the track.

  17. #192
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    You won't need much of a trailer for such a light weight boat, but, look for a trailer which keeps the load as low down as possible, single axle for manoeuvrability, long draw bar so as to get the boat out deep enough before the tow vehicle reaches the drink, and you might want some of those guide post thingamajiggys (let's just call them majiggys) because a breeze or current will make the boat drift annoyingly side on to the trailer when trying to load back on. The less joins and complexity in the construction the better in terms of reducing corrosion issues down the track.
    Thanks for the ideas Geoff! I especially appreciate the majiggys recommendation, it sounds like it could cure some embarrassing tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    She's looking good mate.
    Thanks a lot Gary, I agree! At least its looking more like a boat.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  18. #193
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Diagonal bow stringers are now on. Doesn't seem like much, but bit by bit...

    DSCF7294.jpg

    and a bunch of bungs.



    DSCF7292.jpg

    Now onto shaping chines and buying some plywood.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  19. #194
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Last nights assembly was followed by a lot of sawing and sanding.

    DSCF7295.jpg

    Breaking this week and spending more time with Hartley's Guide to Boat-building to check up on shaping chines and getting ready for the plywood fabrication and installation. I've decided on marine ply, but am still in doubt about the joint to extend 8' ply to 15'. If you missed it earlier, here is my "scientific" method of making a decision on the plywood type...

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...trailer-sailer

    My latest question is choosing a joint for the plywood. Plans call for a butt backed joint and I've been working on a scarf joint, but payson joint may be the best in this situation though...

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 07-29-2018 at 06:13 PM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  20. #195
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I would recommend using butt blocks. They have been used for decades in boatbuilding and have no known weakness whether it is ply or plank.
    This picture shows a butt block join in a Hartley 16 - right above the boat shoe on the starboard side, top planking. This hull was built with 6mm 5 ply meranti planking.
    Line the outside ply and glue and fasten to the stringers and then place butt blocks between the stringers. The butt blocks were 6mm ply.
    Don - Jk 3Dec06_06.JPG

  21. #196
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Don MacLeod View Post
    I would recommend using butt blocks.
    Don - Jk 3Dec06_06.JPG
    Thanks Don, I've been leaning that way, and I think that is the way to go. And double thanks for including that photo! Motivational!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  22. #197
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    fish, i posted on your other thread about plywood but also wanted to mark this one. looking good.

    jim

  23. #198
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by MADOC1 View Post
    fish, i posted on your other thread about plywood but also wanted to mark this one. looking good.

    jim
    Thanks Jim!

    Some progress is still being made, just not the most visible or interesting progress though. I've been spending my time getting the frame that I've built ready for some ply.

    In other words, fixing my wrong doings. They seem to sneak up on you when you're feeling good.

    image3.jpg

    But I'm looking at these challenges as an artistic endevour.

    image1.jpg

    Laminate and sculpt.

    The next task is to shape the chines. While I think that I'm seeing the lines...I also seem to keep delaying this task. But I can't ignore it to much more since I need to buy the ply in a couple of weeks. Time to get the file and sander out!

    I'm also starting to think about a paint scheme and a trailer...just dreaming again.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  24. #199
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Just wanted to give an update. Lots of things going on, just not very photo worthy,

    DSCF7317a.jpg

    Trimming chines and adjusting stringers to fit the upcoming ply. It was easy to say "I'll get that before the ply" 18 months ago, now I am paying for my lack of attention. So now I'm trying to mitigate early assumptions and straighten up details that will be tough to reach once the ply gets installed.

    Even though this is small detail work, my understanding of how this all works together is increasing by leaps and bounds by having to work this all out. Reading the books helps, but having to fit the wood together is where I get things figured out. Sometimes with a re-do required. As a newbie, this is kind of hard to accept, but it is what it is.

    I had major concerns about this piece of the journey (trimming chines for ply) before starting in, but paid attention to lines drawn and after a bunch of re-visits all fit well. Definitely had a great workout with that belt sander. But it was the right tool for the job.

    Next step is to complete some updates on the diagonal stringers and buy some plywood!

    Still thinking about colors...

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  25. #200
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Enjoy it. All your work to date is good, which means the worst case scenario at this point will still result in something good.

  26. #201
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    Lots of things going on, just not very photo worthy
    Clearly you have much higher standards for your photography subjects than the rest of us.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  27. #202
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Clearly you have much higher standards for your photography subjects than the rest of us.
    Thanks Trev, but I'm not too sure about that. Part of the issue is that a lot of my work at this time is fixing up screw-ups and I'm a bit nervous about showing photo's of chines, joints and other details that may reveal a bit more than I want.

    But since I'm almost ready to buy plywood and start in on that portion of the journey, I'll take some chances after this weekend's session.

    Thanks for the motivation Trev!

    Here are a couple of teaser's also shown earlier to show what I've been up to...

    Correcting a heavy hand with the belt sander.

    image3.jpg

    Causing more work by trying to fix only half of the problem.

    image2.jpg

    OK, that's it for now. Please feel free to question/debate/illustrate.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  28. #203
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Looking good Fish

    I think you're striking just the right tone with your thread. On my build thread I focused a lot on my screw-ups and how I fixed them. I figured that new builders would want to see the reality, and a story with no danger or conflict is dull.

    Now that my boat is done it all looks good.

    Oh yeah, clean up as much as you can now. I always left that stuff for "later" and then when later came it was much harder.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

  29. #204
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    WHAT!?! You mean "later" actually arrives? U was always of the belief that tomorrow is the greatest labor saving device of today

  30. #205
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    There is no boat builder on the planet who doesn't make 'corrections', so it perhaps isn't so much 'screw ups' and 'corrections', but a normal part of the sculpting process we call boat building... just keep removing non boat material and filling non boat space until the boat is revealed.

  31. #206
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    ^ I agree completely.
    In fact its the great delight of building a small boat.
    I find it very fullfilling when i have made a mistake that i can rectify it. I even like to show off my mistakes by keeping them bright. Its the difference between a boat popped out of a mold, and the one that I made!

    A mate of mine makes furniture. He doesn't sand them. He finishes with a block plane only - so its rough and unique. He loves the way it says 'Made by Me'.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  32. #207
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Thanks folks,

    I've always said that the journey is just as much fun as the destination in this endeavor, but when I see some of the fantastic projects in here, well...I need to remember one of the reasons that I'm posting here. Which is to show other newbies that it doesn't have to be the biggest, brightest, most complicated boat, and that in spite of yourself, it can be done!

    I think that I'll take on Geoff's comment as my new mantra...

    just keep removing non boat material and filling non boat space until the boat is revealed.
    And I'm also going to consider Trev's comment...

    I even like to show off my mistakes by keeping them bright. Its the difference between a boat popped out of a mold, and the one that I made!
    ...as a worthwhile goal!

    And thanks for the advice minutemen, as I get closer to planking the frame I realized that I would do well to make sure I don't have to visit those places after I flip the hull!

    Hugh, I also have heard from friends in low places that "later" has a negotiable definition. Muchas Gracias!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  33. #208
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Well I think that I've got most of the chines shaped correctly now, although I had to go through quite a bit of remediation. When I installed the diagonal stringers on the bow, I didn't necessarily get them in the right spot for the lower chine. Connecting up with the stem was much better, but not so much on the lower horizontal chine. If I cut the bevel based on this stringer, I would have messed up the whole chine.

    Soooo, instead of removing and replacing the stringer I decided to laminate and sculpt...or sand. Now I know that this is a patch job, and a well built joint will not need this type of repair. But is this a tremendously bad solution?

    This kind of shows my problem, the red ink is the extension of the bevel cut. The outer surface of the stringer needs to be coincident with that line.

    DSCF7327.jpg

    This happens in a couple of places, here is my solution in two steps. First laminate.

    DSCF7330.jpg

    DSCF7332.jpg

    Then sculpt...sand.

    DSCF7337.jpg

    So now I have sort of connected the dots between the lower horizontal chine and the stem along the stringer to add wood where it was needed (down by the lower horizontal chine) and taper to nothing where the surface was in the right spot at the stem. So now these stringers do not have a constant depth, but have an outer surface that is where it should be to support the ply.

    A side effect of shaping the chines is running into bronze screws installed some time ago. I could have sworn that the laminated chines were supposed to have two screws...

    Next step, seal and paint spots that I won't be able to get to after planking. Color decisions? Not sure I'm ready for that.

    Ideas, comments, recommendations, light trash talking, all are invited and welcomed!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  34. #209
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Stay the course Eric! I've never talked to a boat builder that made no mistakes. Me-thinks it's called breathing! If we were perfect, building would be boring, huh? Part of what I have always loved about woodworking in general is that element of problem solving. Gets the mind engaged and that's supposed to be good for mental health as we get older! Following with interest.


    Ken

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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings Ken,

    Thanks for the support! You are right, if we were perfect, building would be boring! And solving all of these issues definitely keeps my mind engaged, giving me a break from the rest of the world. However I sometimes feel that my "Rube Goldberg" way of solving problems might put some folks off. Their loss I guess. Mine too when I don't get to hear how to avoid these issues. But again, the fun is in the journey and figuring these things out certainly puts some scenery in the journey.

    I spent a winter (seemed like winter anyway) at what used to be North Bend Municipal Airport building taxiways and enjoying the area almost 30 years ago. Great place!

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 09-17-2018 at 11:47 PM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

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