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Thread: More Hartley

  1. #141
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Now it was time to fill with Epoxy, thanks Gary for reminding me that it should be thickened!

    With two separate holes to fill, I used masking tape to be the bottom of the hole. Folded over the ends so I could have something to grab when it cured.

    DSCF7184.jpg

    After taping, I stuck a block to add some rigidity to the bottom of the hole. Had to use a shim to hold it up.

    DSCF7186.jpg

    Now some finishing work and I'm ready to drill the 5/8" hole for the pivot pin.

    DSCF7190.jpg

    The question of hand drill vs. drill press still stands...any recommendations?

    Thanks for any comments that may come up!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  2. #142
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    I've got bad eyes, so I use a drillpress whenever possible. When I can't, I have a little gadget I bought a million years ago called a "port-a-line" that clamps onto my old drill and provides a guide. If you want to be truely co-axial, drill it slightly undersize and use a 5/8 reamer for the final alignment.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    I use a drillpress whenever possible.
    I like this idea Hugh...any experience drilling through big hunks of epoxy? As I mentioned earlier, drilling the DF-Larch was tough. Hoping that drilling the epoxy isn't.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  4. #144
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Hi Eric,
    I dug around in my shop for my old drill fixture 'til I remembered I loaned it to my daughter. I figured if nothing else I could send it down for you to try since we're on the same coast I did some digging around online and found several similar concepts, both factory and home-made you might think about: https://www.google.com/search?q=home...ED1k0IfZ0rxhM:
    I don't have any experience drilling epoxy with auger bits...I've always used twist drills and coming from a machining background (I was an engineer for a manufacturing firm) tend to step those up, starting small and working to my final size. You can't do that with a piloted auger. If anyone else on the forum has experience using an auger bit in epoxy maybe they'll chime in
    Whatever technique you use, I'd be inclined to do the final sizing with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FXJECUW/ref=biss_dp_t_asn which will give you some real control over the pin to bore clearance.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Thanks Hugh!

    Lots to assimilate here. I'm beginning to think that for the 5/8" hole I will use my drill press with twist drill bits. Not sure that the auger bit would be the right tool for drilling thickened epoxy.

    I sure appreciate you taking the time to send me those links!

    Any other thoughts on drilling through thickened epoxy? Bring 'em on! I need as much help as I can get!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  6. #146
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Not sure if I am reading correctly, but sounds like you're not sure about the hand held drill due to getting an accurately aligned hole? Sure a drill press is one way to deal with that, but there will be situations in which it can't be used, in which case make a jig (guide). Lots of ways to make a jig. The most simple is a block with a hole drilled at your required angle. Clamp this block onto your work (or temporarily screw into place) such that the hole lines up with what you want to drill. Then when the drill bit goes into your jig it is aligned and held steady. Something like this might help with your wandering auger. There is no right/wrong way to make a jig, just get creative about ways to guide your drills and augers.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Not sure if I am reading correctly, but sounds like you're not sure about the hand held drill due to getting an accurately aligned hole?
    Hey Geoff. Well, yes and no. I didn't have a problem drilling an accurate hole. But the auger bit going through the DF would dig too deep and freeze the bit. I think part of the problem is the power available in my battery hand drill and the other problem was in maintaining a light pressure, make smaller cuts and avoid the bit freezing. So now drilling through the epoxy material, I'm wondering if the same thing will happen as drilling through DF?

    I'm thinking that epoxy would be an easier material to drill through, especially if I revert to a twist bit for the 5/8" hole. Using the block with an alignment hole may just be the ticket too.

    Thanks!

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  8. #148
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Eric
    I did a lot of drilling on Perspex and they reccomend using drill with a lower angle and less back slope to avoid digging in and cracking it. Might apply to poxy?
    Drill press every time, if you can. Controlled speed and feed rate. And slow.
    A2

    Oh.. HSS twist bits too, not augers.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Drill press every time, if you can. Controlled speed and feed rate. And slow.
    A2

    Oh.. HSS twist bits too, not augers.
    Thanks Andrew, I appreciate your two cents here. Seems like I am on the right track here.

    Especially comments about controlled speed and feed rate, things I didn't feel I was controlling very well with the hand drill. Definitely want this hole to work out better.

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  10. #150
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Another possibility for adding more control (if using twist drills) is to start a few sizes small slowly working up to the required drill size... that way there is not as much material removed in each pass.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Another advantage with the drill press is the bit stays perpendicular to the job. Hand held I tend to go off center.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Thanks for the thoughts G & G! I especially believe that the drill press is going to be the tool of choice.

    Here is what I'll be drilling.

    DSCF7192.jpg

    Had to cut the middle of frame No. 4 to allow for the case and logs. Before.

    DSCF7193.jpg

    and after.

    DSCF7194.jpg

    May have to do some more cutting to get that case in, but we will see how that works out. The camera angle seems to make the cut seem out of line, but I've measured it before and after and they are where they are supposed to be. I think, we will see how that works out.

    Painted No. 4 orange to remind me of the minimal connection to the keelson until I get the centerboard case in place. By the way, crawling around the stock and frames to get to the right spot is getting old. Big bruises!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  13. #153
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Getting into cramped places to do awkward things at impossible angles is something every boat builder faces. It is an opportunity to practice a zen state of mind.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by FishoutaFlorida View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts G & G! I especially believe that the drill press is going to be the tool of choice.

    Here is what I'll be drilling.

    DSCF7192.jpg

    Had to cut the middle of frame No. 4 to allow for the case and logs. Before.

    DSCF7193.jpg

    and after.

    DSCF7194.jpg

    May have to do some more cutting to get that case in, but we will see how that works out. The camera angle seems to make the cut seem out of line, but I've measured it before and after and they are where they are supposed to be. I think, we will see how that works out.

    Painted No. 4 orange to remind me of the minimal connection to the keelson until I get the centerboard case in place. By the way, crawling around the stock and frames to get to the right spot is getting old. Big bruises!

    More later,

    Eric
    Wait till you get to the point where you are bending over doing lots of sanding.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    It is an opportunity to practice a zen state of mind.
    Thanks Geoff, I'm still at the grasshopper stage, but I see your wisdom.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  16. #156
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Wait till you get to the point where you are bending over doing lots of sanding.
    Wait Gary, there's more? I'm going to have either get in shape or build some gizmo that defeats gravity.

    Thanks!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  17. #157
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    . It is an opportunity to practice a zen state of mind.
    I manage to get into that every now and zen.
    (sorry)

  18. #158
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    It is an opportunity to practice a zen state of mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    I manage to get into that every now and zen.
    levitation.jpg

    Thanks!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  19. #159
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    While my zen efforts did not defy gravity as hoped, it certainly reminded me of the value of my "groaning" chair. Time spent there seems to move without effort and true benefits can be realized by searching for the truth.

    And taking notes afterward.

    Not much to report. Prepped centerboard case for pivot hole drilling.

    DSCF7195.jpg

    Drilling epoxy with the drill press was much easier than the DF with the hand drill. Epoxy with consistent material characteristics, drill press easier to control rates, and twist bit better suited for the task, even a clutz like me can get the job done.

    But there was an issue with the length of the bit (6" with 1 1/2" shank) vs. the depth of the hole (5") and the limited range of the drill press. This meant that I couldn't drill the complete hole with the drill press.

    So I figured that the drilled portion would be a fine jig to drill the remainder with the hand drill.

    DSCF7200.jpg

    Task done.

    DSCF7201.jpg

    On to installing the case. I need to order some #12 - 3" bronze screws and a ss 5/8" pivot pin.

    Getting back to defying gravity and getting this case in place with just myself as a facilitator, I've been thinking about using a couple of bottle jacks and jig to get it in place. Any ideas out there? I know that it is kind of a question without an absolute answer, but maybe a crib and shims has worked well. Or perhaps a lift from the keelson.

    Any input/idea/observation/criticism is welcomed and very appreciated. I really do enjoy tapping the knowledge keg out here!

    More later,

    Eric
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  20. #160
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    A bit tricky to visualise the lift, but it is amazing what can be done with a jack, lots of cribbing, and of course a dash of zen.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    A bit tricky to visualise the lift, but it is amazing what can be done with a jack, lots of cribbing, and of course a dash of zen.
    Thanks Geoff, I'm with you on the zen!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  22. #162
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Was able to make some progress this weekend after solving some logistical problem replacing my old bottle jacks, I was lifting the case.

    DSCF7208.jpg

    After some serious file work on the slot and getting the case aligned, it fits!

    DSCF7207.jpg

    Bit of a problem here, forward section of the centerboard case is not getting all the way in while the back is, seems to be blocked somewhere. Here is the stern end of the board.

    DSCF7211.jpg

    And here is where its getting bound up in the front,

    DSCF7213.jpg

    So a bit more trimming and I should be ready to install the 3" -#12 bronze silicon wood screws that I forgot to get, by the time they get here. But I sure am glad to see the case fitting!

    I am also reminded that I've got a bit of sanding to do in addition to trimming that gusset before I can install this puppy.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  23. #163
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Looking good. A photo of my Hartley 18 when I was about your stage

    2013-07-19 10.23.55.jpg

  24. #164
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Thanks Ando56!

    I see that you had installed the bottom stringers before the centerboard case. How did you install the case?

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  25. #165
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Sorry Eric, I should have explained more. Whilst this is exactly the same hull as the Hartley 18 TS, it is actually the 18 Fisherman powered by an outboard therefore no centreboard case. I've been doing it slowly for 5 1/2 years and it will be going on the trailer in the next week or so.
    I used Hoop Pine which is plantation grown here in Aus and a little bit of Kauri when Hoop wasn't available.
    I'm watching your build with interest as not many Hartley's seem to be built these days.

  26. #166
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Ando56 View Post
    I'm watching your build with interest as not many Hartley's seem to be built these days.
    Thanks Ando56! That explains alot! I was trying to figure out how to get under the hull while it is on the building stock and figured I'd have more room if I did the centerboard case first and then finish the stringers. And then I started wondering if folks where installing the case after the planking and the flip!

    Seems that your comments about the Hartley TS are true. Don't know why because it really fit my needs, newbie builder, full size plans, small garage, verified performance and a whole lot of history. I've certainly noticed that the majority of the comments are from Australia, with a few notable exceptions.

    To each their own.

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  27. #167
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Ando56 View Post
    Looking good. A photo of my Hartley 18 when I was about your stage

    2013-07-19 10.23.55.jpg
    Diagonal stringers at the bow. I built the Spindrift 24 and the plans called for stringers run right though to the stem. Really had to twist a couple of them. I chose Hartley for much the same reason, full sized patterns etc.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  28. #168
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings all,

    Busy weekend, but I did get the centerboard case installed. Here is the dry fit after confirming that it was in the right spot, getting ready to epoxy.

    DSCF7218.jpg

    Here is a view from the dry fit. Will need to make sure I lay the thickened epoxy on thick. And get my shims ready.

    DSCF7219.jpg

    After setting some screws to hold it in place...Had some problems with the new screws, pre-drilled as if it was hardwood and the screw would get bound up when the shank hit the hole. Will pull the temps out when I figure out the bronze silicon deal.

    DSCF7220.jpg

    Probably should have taped the pivot hole, but I cleaned it up.

    So just have to get myself straight with those screws, fill in any voids, bung the screws and it's on to the stringers!

    More later,

    Eric
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  29. #169
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    You're progressing in leaps and bounds, great mile stone achieved with the case!

  30. #170
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    You're progressing in leaps and bounds, great mile stone achieved with the case!
    Thanks Geoff! It seems like it is taking forever, but I'm really looking forward to planking and seeing what it looks like with the hull finished!
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  31. #171
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Greetings,

    Pardon the interruption...computer passed over the bar and left me on my own.

    Boat progress has been in details getting ready to place stringers. Largest task was to epoxy up the interface between the centerboard case and the cuts that I made in the keelson. Jig saw was the wrong tool. Only used it a bit before I switched to circular saw, but the damage was done. Here is the keelson masked out for filling the voids with thickend epoxy.

    DSCF7222.jpg

    and after...

    DSCF7224.jpg

    Just wanted to keep up the thread, hard to do when I'm just re-setting screws, reading manuals and sanding drips.

    But hey, hopefully someone gets something out of it.

    Now on to the stringers, lots of work to do and plenty of places to learn. Motivation is to get the hull finished, flopped and ready to start in on the interior.

    More later,

    Eric

    PS Had some nice weather for the 4th!

    DSCF7226.jpg
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

    Billy Currington

  32. #172
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Don't worry, every boat involves doing lots and lots which once it is done appears like nothing... but other days all that 'nothing' has paved the way for the next big leap of something. Just so you know you're not alone, the nothing bit took up my whole day today, sanding dags off the rudder and scouring the inside of the cabin for hours to remove amine blush. By the end of the day I was able to sit back exhausted and admire no visible change.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    By the end of the day I was able to sit back exhausted and admire no visible change.
    Thanks Geoff, with a fair amount of pondering chair time it became clear how little had been visually accomplished, regardless of true progress. Glad to be reminded that I'm on a well traveled path.

    Speaking of path's, I'm starting to think beyond the stringers and am researching plywood selection. Reviewing a lot of the threads has provided mixed input on marine vs. exterior plywood yet provided a lot of different possibilities. Plans call for 1/4" ply for the hull of the trailer sailor but to test the waters, I purchased some 1/4" exterior for the centerboard case to see what I thought about it as hull material. Nope, not suitable material for scarf and bevel joints. Only three plys and the center one appears to be junk wood.

    DSCF7230.jpg

    So this can't be the right material for the hull. Scarf and beveled joints would seem to be very useless with only 3 ply. Right now I'm thinking that a 5 ply 6mm would be the best bet.

    Let me know what you think!

    More later,

    Eric
    Last edited by FishoutaFlorida; 07-07-2018 at 01:29 AM.
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.

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  34. #174
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Some of the 6mm 'marine' ply I have used has 5 plys, sort of, but looking closely the face plys are no thicker than a sheet of newspaper, so their contribution to strength I would estimate to be a poofteenth of bugger all. This then leaves the three core plys of dubious material, essentially what you already have.

    Perhaps use some of your three ply to make a test scarf joint. After it is well cured try to break it. You may be surprised at how strong the joint is, or if not then at least you know to look further for other ply wood.

  35. #175
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    Default Re: More Hartley

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Some of the 6mm 'marine' ply I have used has 5 plys, sort of, but looking closely the face plys are no thicker than a sheet of newspaper, so their contribution to strength I would estimate to be a poofteenth of bugger all. This then leaves the three core plys of dubious material, essentially what you already have.

    Perhaps use some of your three ply to make a test scarf joint. After it is well cured try to break it. You may be surprised at how strong the joint is, or if not then at least you know to look further for other ply wood.
    And perhaps give it a "boil test" to see what kind of glue they actually used. I had some "exterior" ply (5/8" 5 ply) offcuts that I got wet and they didn't just delaminate, they fairly flew apart. I was just using them for a benchtop, luckily.

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